Tragic Fires in Victora, Oz. Many Dead

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It is awful.

As a nation we seem to swing from drought to fire to flood.

Much of the country is under water restrictions including Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne...yet there are floods in Queensland.

...and we have flora that encourages bushfires. Eucalypts are a good example. When they dry they become incredibly flammable as the oil in the leaves becomes concentrated. Some species of plant here require fire to germinate and others to have their seeds spread as the pods explode or open in the heat..

...fire is also a natural way of removing the debris and detritus from previous years. The accumulated bark and leaf litter are 'cleaned' out of the way with the soot and charcoal providing nutrients for new growth...and bare in mind that Australian natives don't drop their leaves, they drop their bark which is odd compared to the rest of the worlds plants.

But that is great in a world where man has not been or lives and where animals are not grazing. The tragedy of all of this is that there will be a portion of these fires that have been deliberatly lit by some @#*&wit causing millions in damage not to mention the cost in lives for people, animals, livings detroyed and possessions lost.

When the last major fires tore through the country, I was in the UK. Canberra was at risk and some 500 homes were lost here as the emergency services couldn't cope. I spoke to my father at the time who was on the roof of the house pushing towels in the guttering down pipes so he could fill the gutters with water to reduce the chance of embers getting under the tiles and into the roof space...the phone dropped out (one of the mobile towers went)...the feeling of utter uselessness that I felt at that point in time was pretty complete....

I am not too proud to say that I sat watching developments on the internet sobbing at how useless I felt, the horror that was unfolding, the uncertainty of knowing about family and friends (I am a Canberra kid) and the losses that people were experienceing. Everybody who grew up in Canberra (Pop.340,000)and is in their late 20s or older either directly knows someone, is related to someone or is 2 steps away from a person affected by those fires...

The totality of destruction by fire is nearly always complete....
 
Tragic

As a Californian, I'm always aware of the danger of wildfires during our long dry season. This coming year promises to be another bad year, with the drought continuing, water supplies low, and higher average temps expected.

Apparently Australia is experiencing wild swings of weather. It's a record hot season now in Victoria, but north Queensland is experiencing monsoon conditions, with floods, flash floods, and high tides inundating the area. This was predicted by climate scientists - that as the oceans warm up the globe will experience more severe weather patterns. Ironically, the cold snap gripping the eastern 2/3 of America may well just be part of the extreme weather fluctuations to be expected as the globe adjusts to higher overall temperatures.


King tides, flash floods to intensify Queensland's misery

Residents in Queensland's north have been warned to expect king tides and flash flooding today as rain continues to fall steadily.

People on the eastern Gulf of Carpentaria coast, and the east coast between Cairns and Bowen have been warned to expect abnormally high tides.

The weather bureau says a monsoon trough south of Cairns is expected to drift slowly southwards, bringing bands of heavy rain with it.

People in the North Tropical Coast and Tablelands district, the Herbert and Lower Burdekin, northern parts of the Central coast and Central Highlands & Coalfields districts are warned to expect flash flooding.

Residents at isolated Ingham in north Queensland are waking to their seventh day of flooding.

The Bureau of Meteorology says the Herbert River peaked at 12.25 metres in the town overnight - about the same level as on Tuesday.

The Tully and Burdekin Rivers are falling, but the Houghton River near Giru is still rising.

The Bruce Highway is cut between Ayr and Townsville and the town of Tully is also cut off.

The weather bureau's Gavin Holcombe says there was not as much rain overnight in Ingham as in previous days.

"Certainly the rain has eased off in that area in the last few hours or so," he said.

Nic Lowe of the Red Cross says about 50 Ingham residents are staying in an evacuation centre.

"Some of the families that we've got here have been here for almost a week already, so they're really keen to actually get home," he said.

Heavy rain is forecast tonight between Innisfail and Bowen.

Emergency Services spokeswoman Lisa Martin says king tides today are another concern.

"We're also looking at the area around Innisfail and Cairns as they've received a lot of rain over the last couple of days," she said.

Heavy rain in Cairns has caused some flash flooding, but emergency serivces says it did not cause too many problems.

Further south, there have also been heavy falls between Townsville and Bowen and crews are closely watching river levels there.

The bureau is predicting the rain will continue moving south today and dump big falls on the central coast.

South-east bakes under record temperatures

The bushfire emergency in Australia's south-east is being fuelled in part by record temperatures and tinderbox conditions.

Relative humidity was as low 10 per cent in Victoria, New South Wales and South Australia, and Melbourne had its hottest February day on record.

The mercury reached 46.3 degrees Celsius in the city, 47.9 in Avalon near Geelong and there were unconfirmed reports of 48 degrees in the north-western town of Hopetoun.

Temperatures peaked at 33 degrees Celsius in Sydney city but reached 41 degrees in the western suburbs of Penrith and Richmond.

The hottest places in New South Wales were Pooncarie in the state's west and Deliniquin in south-west New South Wales where the mercury reached 47 degrees Celsius.

Adelaide reached a top of of 41.5 degrees at 11:30am (ACDT).

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/07/2485183.htm
 
On our local PBS radio station the other day, I listened to a discussion of the California drought. The subject of Australia came up, and the comment was made that Australians have already accepted the reality of long term drought there. It was said that Australians are generally taken back when they visit the arid US Southwest and see green lawns, or "turf". Apparently in Australia, such lawns are rapidly disappearing, and in some cases the only green grass happens if a township or community pools its water allocation and waters a special need, such as for a community soccer field.
 
They're stating today, that they are still unsure how bad the fires are in Victoria, as there are lots of areas that they havent been able to get to. Already they are comparing this to the 1983 Ash Wednesday bushfires that killed nearly 80 people. We've got pictures of Grandmother on the roof of their house hosing it down and beating embers with burlap sacking.

Where I grew up in NE Victoria, I can remember 3 summers where bushfires came close enough that we werent allowed to leave the house as kids. By the late 80's we had aerial sprinklers mounted on the roof of the house and sheds, so as long as we had diesel, we could keep almost everything wetted down. Its horrifying when this occurs, but for me it was always part of growing up.

With the above discussion on Climate change, I have a great book written in the late 70's about Australias disasters up until that date. Extreme bushfires have been occuring about every 25-30 years since the mid 1800's (In victoria, 1933, 1967, 1983, 2009) and up until the mid 80's North Queensland flooded, and the highways and train lines were cut almost every other Summer. The Weather in Queensland is seen by most locals as a return to normal weather patterns, rather than something out of the unusual. The problem has come in that its been that long since the severe flooding that housing has been built in areas previously designated in flood plains and as a low set rather than raised on stilts. A lot of the older houses are escaping relatively unscathed, is the newer ones that are copping the brunt of it.

I hope all of our Aussie Members are ok and havent lost anything that cant be replaced

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash_Wednesday_fires
 
Latest update.

According to the 6pm news the latest update is just a real horror story as of now 65 people dead and almost 700 homes destroyed on par with Ash Wednesday 1983.
The unbelievable thing to imagine is some of these fires were deliberately lit by arsonists,that is just so hard to believe, how can people be either so stupid or evil.
These f****** should all be charged under the emergency anti terrorism legislation,be cause that is an act of terrorism.
Also guys lets not forget the poor people of South Australia, 2 weeks in a row of 40 degrees plus temperatures,I understand 75 people have died from heat stroke and other heat related illnesses.
Gizmo, could you please post a message to indicate you are okay if you possibly can.
Steve.
 
It is sad...

Material possessions can be replaced, but loved ones can't...

There have been reports in Melbourne that they may try to charge any arsonists that are caught with murder....

Frankly, my heart wants to see them burn them at the stake....but my head can't deal with that...
 
Death toll now 84!

Hi Laundress

I just checked ninemsn and the death toll has not risen to 84!!

This is very bad.

Yes, Gizmo lives in Victoria, but i don't think the area he lives in has been affected. I think he's in the same area as my friend, who said while he wasn't affected by the fires, he said the hot wind of yesterday was awful and like a tornado!

Leon
 
I'M OK

Hi all and thanks for your concern.

Yes I live in Victoria and the news here is awful. However the area I live in, though a high fire risk area, has escaped this time.

The death toll is now 85 and over 700 homes destroyed. The town of Kinglake, northeast of Melbourne, has almost disappeared, only 3 homes left. (not sure how many were there, but dozens at least.) The building designer who designed our house lived there, not sure if he is still there or has moved.

One of Melbourne's longest term TV newsreaders, now retired, Brian Naylor, and his wife were killed in the fires.

Some of the areas my partner and I looked at when we were looking where to build have now been burnt. We looked at Kinglake, Boolara, Flowerdale, Noojee. These were beautiful, forested areas. So is where we live now. We have 19 acres of beautiful forest with fern filled gullies, it is a very high rainfall area with a mixture of messmate (eucalypts, very flammable) and blackwood (acacias, fire retardant trees.) Fortunately most of the trees closest to our house are blackwoods. We have a good cleared area round the house, a dedicated fire fighting pump and water supply. The area has new fire building codes and our home complies, though the standards are not very stringent and we intend to upgrade, including fitting fire sprinklers to our roof, and making up removable steel shutters for the windows. (kept is a shed till required.)

The temperatures here have been extraordinary. This last couple of weeks temps in Geelong and Melbourne have been 46 and 48 degrees C. This is a record ever temp. Where we live tends to be cooler but we had 38.5 degrees when Geelong was 48. The hottest I have ever seen here before was 34.

The lakes to the north around Colac and Ballarat have dried up. Ballarat is a beautiful city, it was a gold rush town in the 1850s. It is built around Lake Wendouree. As recently as four or five years ago, when my friends came over from Chicago to visit, we had a picnic lunch at the lake, fed the black swans, and so on. The lake has been completely dry for three years now. Lake Eppalock, which was a water skiing holiday destination when we were kids, has been dry for 10 years. The bottom of the lake is all trees now. We went there last year, I was shocked to see it. The hotel at the lake was being demolished when we were there, no water means no visitors. Colac, our nearest city, about 50 km away is also on a lake and it dried up for the first time ever this year. Last year it was down but this year it is dry.

Water is a REAL problem here. Our State government is building a squillion dollar pipeline across the state as the water catchments that supply Melbourne and Geelong are drying up. The rivers it is taking water from are already under great stress and this will not help. In Melbourne and most cities across Victoria, water restrictions do not allow car washing, (except in commercial car washes who recycle the water and buy in truckloads of fresh water); watering lawns is completely banned, generally watering gardens is either banned or severely restricted, such as allowing watering only with a hand held hose, and only watering one hour every second day. Sprinklers and drippers are generally banned outright. Filling swimming pools is also banned in Geelong, I think Melbourne too, though you can still by water by the truckload (at great expense) from municipalities with fewer water problems, such as where we live.

The old timers told us when we moved here, "it rains for nine months of the year and for the other three it drips off the trees". Now the lawn around our house is all brown and crackles when you walk on it.

Chris.
 
It just gets worse

I am so glad you and your partner are ok Gizmo,I have been listening to the radio and it has just been broadcast that the death toll is now 108 poor souls lost.
I feel so sick in my stomach today.
Steve.
 
The water pipline has been discussed a few times, moreso in getting water to the bottom of Queensland where we are in drought. It's always been dismissed as costing to much to build and too much to run. The length would need to be around 1600km to Brisbane and about 3500km to Melbourne.

I've just spoken to my grandparents who live in NE Victoria near the Beechworth fires. They live at Whorouly South which is on the left hand side of the Map, which is about 15km from the fire front. The only thing that has saved them so far, is that the winds are pushing the fires North and away from them.

They've got full sprinklers on the house and most of the outbuildings on the farm, however the water tanks and creek are dry these days, and the artesian bore is producing enough to live on, but not much more, so if the wind shifts they wont have any water to fight the fire.

So far its up in the hills to the north of them and hopefully it'll stay there.

2-8-2009-16-27-58--brisnat81.jpg
 
'Any chance of a water pipeline being built in north Que

There really isn't anything in the center of Australia to bring water to. I believe a pipeline will be constructed to take water from the north of Queensland to that State's south east. There is always a lot of ho-humming about such projects. If it doesn't involve oil or gas it's always far too expensive and logistically difficult. I should take some of our pollies and engineers to Kuwait, Qatar and Dubai. There is no such thing as a drought in those places and they are true desert countries. You wouldn't find lusher lawns in New England on a rainy day.

The high body count to these fires is a strong indication that people, who live in these areas, are/were too complacent. Listening to the various fire officers being interviewed the common thread was/is "we underestimated the verocity of these fires." Strangely enough, they say that every time we have a major fire. Then, after the fact, they talk about how to avoid/prevent such huge losses of lives/property in the future. Even going so far to propose banning people from building in bush fire prone areas, but in the end it all just goes away to be rekindled with the next major event.

Reading some of the eyewitness accounts of people - "oh, we were in such and such a place and everything was fine, we were doing blah blah blah and suddenly there was the fire upon us and we couldn't do anything. Well, HELLO!!! This is 2009, we have surveillance technology, planes, cameras, radios, televisions - they can track and reasonably predict a fire's path. Obvioulsy there were no evac plans or places where people could have gathered to ride this out.

People should have been evacuated immediately. As soon as the fires took hold around Kingslake folk ought to have been ordered out of their houses. That so many people died there alone is a good indication that they weren't properly warned, prepared, alone and completely clueless about what to do. The tinder dry conditions and very hot temperatures should have been enough to put people on edge/standby to evacute at the first whisp of smoke and the drop of a hat. Bushfires are an integral part of this country's south east. They are important for our ecology, they are ferocious, move very fast, raze everything in their paths and they don't discriminate.

With the right warning systems and preparation, this huge loss of life could have been prevented, but this is Australia and we take it easy here all the time. We generally solve problems by using this very magical incantation that goes like this - "she'll be right mate." You should try it over there in America. At least our Prime Minister is getting plenty of photo opportunities hugging and crying on people's shoulders, making lots of promises that he won't keep, BLECH!!!
 
Victoria was devastated by the Ash Wednesday fires in the eighties (1983??) with similar results, though this latest is worse. There was a lot of review in the year or two after the fires, with some decisions for protection which have, in my opinion, been wrongly changes since.
For example, in all fire prone areas, there were designated safe refuge areas, well signposted, where people were supposed to assemble in a fire. These areas were to be kept clear and well protected, places like schools and football grounds. They all had prominent red and white signs "displan assembly area." (Displan = Disaster Plan.) Then sometime in the 1990s, state bureaucrats decided that promoting such areas as a safe haven invited public liability issues if people assembled there and subsequently got burnt. So all the displan signs werre removed and there are no designated safe areas. I believe that was one of the major causes of fatalities in the last few days - people fled at the last minute, when the roads were so choked with smoke that no one could see where they were driving and had no clear idea where to go. They were trying to go long distances to get right out of the fire risk area, instead of moving to a designated safe area nearby, a safe spot within the danger zone. In one place a tree had fallen across a road and a car ran into it, then three more cars ran into the back of it. They were all then burnt. It is not clear whether the people were killed in the crash or the fire.

Chris
 
a safe haven invited public liability issues if people assem

That'll be right. Of course, not getting burnt was the point, wasn't it? Ought not such 'save havens' then be maintained so people were relatively safe? Well, perhaps something sensible may come out ot this tragedy, then again, we'll just forget about it. In another 20 or 30 years there'll be even more people living in these areas - that'll make future events so much more spectacular.

To think that I was frolicking at Jamberoo with my niece and nephew, when people were being burnt alive makes me feel queasy.
 
We had a big fire in the Oakland hills here in the early 90's. 3,000 homes destroyed, 50 or so deaths. The eucalyptus was a big problem - they were planted in the 1800's as a get rich lumber scheme but it turned out the blue gum species that was sold to the speculator was the wrong type for timber - too brittle and warps/splits easily. But they really took to this climate and with no natural enemies they soon took over entire mountains that had been clear cut of their original redwoods and oaks.

The trees have been a problem ever since the 70's when a record freeze killed off a lot of them, making them even more of a fire hazard. The dead trees were removed but soon new ones took their place from stumps and seeds. Now in some areas there's a concerted effort to clear out the gums and replant with native tree species.

I kind of love/hate the gums. On the one hand they do provide scenery and the aroma on a warm day is great for the sinuses ;-). On the other hand the lack of any natural enemies and the fact that the leaves are toxic to most other plants means that a eucalyptus forest here tends to be rather sterile place - no interesting bugs and not many birds or mammals.

The decision to abandon the safe haven concept is typical of overly cautious bureaucracy. I remember a local bike racing club debating long into the night about whether or not to add more safety features to their track - the fear was that if they did that, lawsuits would pop up citing the addition of more safety features as an admission that track was previously unsafe. Fortunately the nervous nellies did not carry the vote.

In Oakland the problem of incendiary gum trees was coupled with narrow winding roads and homes built to the edge of tinder dry brushland. So some people had difficulty escaping by car. It got so hot in the neighborhoods that aluminum parts of cars and motorcycles melted where they stood. The local fire department was overwhelmed - it was accustomed to fighting dwelling fires, maybe one or two at a time - not a forest fire coupled with hundreds of burning homes. Since then a lot of changes have been made, including stringent codes for clearing land for 30 feet around structures, no wood roofing, etc. Don't know if there are designated safe areas though.
 
Latest on ninemsn

According to ninemsn the death toll could possibly reach as high as 230,simply tragic beyond belief.
Interesting that a pipiline is being discussed,I will be interested to see what the Western Australian Premier,Mr. Barnett might do in relation to this, after all one or two elections ago, when Mr. Barnett was the Leader of the State Opposition he actually propsed such a canal/pipeline from the northwest of W.A. all the way down to Perth,as I recall he was laughed at by most of the media,then then Labor Government over there and certain academics who said it would cost too much and bankrupt the state.
Nopw 4-5 years later, Mr. Barnett finds himself in power as Premier, I wonder if he will relook at his initial proposal,somwehow though I suspect not,most politicians have a habit of letting we,the people down.
Rapunzel,I agree with you about the monitoring of the fires,and also agree that the citizens should have been forced to evacuate for their own lives,apparently the Victorian Government had already invoked State of Emergency powers,so the people should have indeed been made to leave wether they liked it or not,I believe there would have been no way to fight such a colossal and unimaginably powerful bushfire.
That being said I still do feel incredibly bad for the victims and also the wildlife death toll must be beyond belief.
Steve.
 
Another message which has been hammered by authorities is, everyone in fire areas needs to have a fire plan. That is, know in advance if you will evacuate, or if you will stay and defend your home. If you will evacuate, then if there is any fire in your area, or on days of extreme fire risk, then leave the area early, don't wait till you see fire. If you are staying, then have a plan of action and stick to it, don't flee at the last minute.
What happens, in reality, is people have pretty poor plans, intend to fight a bushfire with a garden hose. When the fire arrives, they find the power is cut as the powerlines have been burnt, so the pump doesn't work and mains water is down to a trickle. Or the fire fighting hose gets all tangled when trying to get it out of the shed, precious minutes are lost. The fire arrives much faster and fiercer than expected, so people spend a few minutes grabbing posessions, then jump into the car and find they can't see where they are going for the smoke.

I am very aware at present that I am pretty much in that position myself. Our plan is to stay to fight a fire, we have the correct petrol powered pump and proper fire hoses. We have several clear metres around the house. Our house is reasonably fire resistant design. But there are real weaknesses in the plan too. We have two messmate trees behind the house, they are about twenty metres high now. (we planted them as tiny seedlings.) Today we decided they have to go, they are too much of a fire hazard. I have never used the fire hose , I need to get it out and practise. We need to make up some shutters for the windows. We need to buy a couple more steel buckets and cotton mops, for wetting any embers. And this year we will probably build a bunker in the hill behind the house.

Chris
 
This mornings estimate is over 135 dead now, and they are claiming most of the fires started by criminals. Sounds like they need to restore public hanging.

A terrible situation. I hope it will end soon. Best wishes to all of the AW friends affected.
 
And rising...!!!

Glad you guys are all fine, the news stories are just harrowing, you cannot comprehend what it must be like, just minutes to leave and even that was too late....I saw a pic of a melted car, the molten metal left on the ground!!

Just rang my Uncle early this morning, (18 of my family now live in east Melbourne, Bayswater North, within 5km of each other, my mums brother & sister emigrated in the 60`s through work with Pilkingtons glass) they live less than an hour from the fires, he said everyone is in shock and while thay arnt in danger friends of theirs south of St.Andrews had to leave their smallholding, along with horses & livestock , all gone......they had no idea how big the picture was until much later when in the shelters...so very thankful that they made it!!and lots of other didnt.

Thoughts & prayers to all involved!!
 
> they are claiming most of the fires started by criminals <

Is there any evidence to support this claim? Here in the U.S., it's standard procedure to immediately spew the "A" word (arson) with any major fire, simply because it allows insurance companies to delay and withhold payments to their customers. Many others are forced to sue their insurance companies to receive their benefits, and settle for much less money than they should receive.

In the vast majority of cases, once the formal investigations were done, there was no evidence of arson in these fires. The claims from "officials" are just magically forgotten.
 
:(

Hey Guys- and Chris in particular!

I really cant imagine how scary it must be to be confronted with this- my heart goes out to the victims and their families,those who have lost everything....

Its just so so tragic....

Seamus.

If they were started by(pardon the language) some fucking sick arsonists then I really hope they burn in Hell.....
 
The Victorian

...police stated they treat all fires as potentially treated by arsonists, but do have reason to believe that at least one of the major ones was started because of the way it started and the pattern of ignition....

Statistically, up to 50% of major fires in the country are started by arsonists, another large proportion by carelessness and the rest nature...

One of them is believed to have been started by a cigarette butt..
 
Latest news here is that the death toll from the fires has reached 171. This is really tragic. Although arson is a possibility, I think the extremely hot dry weather is probably the main culprit, along with what sounds like poor government decisions vis-a-vis safe gathering areas.

The idea of roof mounted sprinklers intrigues me. Although my home is several miles from the brush, there is the danger of fire in town, especially after a big earthquake. I have a well that never goes dry (I use it for irrigation only), and I've been thinking of mounting emergency sprinklers on the roof of the main house - it has a wood shake roof that is rather flammable if a flying ember were to hit it.

I'd also probably want to get an emergency generator to power the well pump in case of a general conflagration.

I'm wondering if any of those in Oz could point me to some advice/plans on the best way to mount rooftop sprinklers...
 
It has been a horrible week.

I had to turn the news off on Sunday night, It was so distressing.

Glad to know that Gizmo and Family are safe!

I have other friends in Victoria too and just heard recently that they are all okay.
 
Coles Supermarkets all over Australia donated all their profits today to the bushfire recovery aid. I normally shop at Coles anyway so instead of doing one weeks shop i did a three week shop and doubled up on a lot of things to bring the total to around $200, its nice to know it will go to helping the recovery for my fellow Australians who lost their homes and some, their families.
I won't comment on the people who caused this devastating disaster, my blood boils when i think of them probably walking around as though nothing has happened.
Love and Respect from Western Australia
Matt
 
Someone has been arrested for for the Churchill area fires.

He has been taken into "protective custody" tonight - ie: jailed both for arrest/processing, and for his own protection.

Arson is also strongly suspected for the Marysville fire, one of the worst.

These fires have been hotter than ever before - reports of aluminium engine blocks in cars melting and running down the road. Windows in houses melted. Scary.

Fortunately no-one I know was affected directly, though my partner's cousin is only a few km from a fire which is still burning. Our postie (postal worker) has a sister who was burnt out. Family all survived but they lost everything. I have some relatives at Healesville, which is still under threat.

Chris.
 

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