Trouble in refrigerator paradise...

[hooverwheelaway]

Well, we're pretty sure that we figured out what the problem was.  We took the freezer apart again this week. 

 

Based on suggestions above and what we knew from reading the service manual, there were likely only 4 things that could be the problem here:

-Defrost Timer

-High Limit Thermostat

-Drain Heater

-Defrost Heater

 

Here's the freezer floor removed, you can see how nice and frosty it was getting...  Turned the fridge off, and let everything melt away.  We put the fridge into defrost and turned it back on for a few minutes to see if the heater was even heating up, which it was not.  We then disconnected the high limit thermostat to rule that out, ran the fridge in defrost again, and the heater still didn't heat.  The main heater and the drain heater are wired in a series, so if one isn't working, the other won't work. 

 

[hooverwheelaway]

The first time we had this problem, we unclogged the drain plug.  In doing so, we had to move the drain heater around.  It has been fairly obvious that repairs had been done in the freezer at some point.  We are pretty sure that when we cleaned out the drain plug, and moved things around, the wiring job from the repair crumbled and ultimately failed.

 

Here's the 'electrical tape special' that we found when we took the drain heater out.  Upon closer investigation, the heating element itself for the drain heater had some cracks in the rubber.  Though, the failed wiring from a previous repair was likely our culprit - a break in the heater wiring series - and why nothing was heating at all.

 

[hooverwheelaway]

Sure enough, we found the drain heater element on eBay and ordered one.  It arrived yesterday and we got to work installing it.  We took the side panel out of the fridge and sure enough found the terminal block.   It's such a cute terminal block!  We fished the wires up the side, plugged them in, gave it a test, and we had heat on both elements! 

 

Got everything re-situated, put the fridge and freezer back together, and we have cold.  Obviously the ultimate test will be over the long-run, but we're both very confident that this was our problem!

 

Yay!

 

[philr]

EDIT: I took so much time posting this and modifying a picture on Photoshop that I didn't see your two last posts!

 

I hope it works! 

 

OK, I supposed that you jumped the terminals that are connected to those of the hi-limit thermostat, you didn't just disconnect it. When this thermostat is open (once the temperature reached the high limit or before it has reached the low temperature to set it back to "closed" or if it's just defective), the heaters stop heating.

 

The system Frigidaire used is a bit confusing because of the 5th wire that goes to the defrost timer (most systems use only 4) that allows the compressor to restart before the 32 minutes of the defrost cycle is completed. To do so, the current still passes through the defrost heaters (drain and evaporator) to energize a relay in the defrost timer that allows the compressor to restart immediately after the defrost hi limit thermostat has opened. In this condition, there's not enough current passing through the heaters to make them heat.

 

That means, if the high limit thermostat is open or disconnected, the compressor should still work during the defrost cycle. If the compressor doesn't restart immediately when the defrost hi-limit thermostat is open or removed, that means that either the relay in the defrost timer is defective or that one of the heaters is bad. 

 

To test the heaters without damaging the wires in the freezer, you can have access to the connectors in the refrigerator section. You need to remove the left plastic trim between the cabinet and interior liner and the wires that go to both the drain heater and the defrost heater can be tested for continuity from there. Refer to the second page I posted here. On this one, I colored the wires for the drain heater in blue and for the defrost heater in green. These aren't the real colors but it helps to see where they connect. Your fridge is a Deluxe but the wiring should be very similar (I think the main differences in the wiring is the lack of a lamp and switch in the freezer and the lack of a butter conditioner!). 

 

[hooverwheelaway]

Thanks for the effort Phil!  If nothing else, it's documented for the next person who may have this problem! 

 

[Unimatic1140]

That means, if the high limit thermostat is open or disconnected, the compressor should still work during the defrost cycle. If the compressor doesn't restart immediately when the defrost hi-limit thermostat is open or removed, that means that either the relay in the defrost timer is defective or that one of the heaters is bad.

Neither actually Phil in this situation, the replacement timer that is in there does not contain a lead for the the 5th wire (green), so the timer that is in there does not support that feature. Doesn't really matter, its a nice to have feature but not necessary for proper operation, at least it ran fine for 10 years without that.

 

[philr]

Robert, do you know what kind of defrost timer was used for your fridge? Most of the time, they just install timers that defrost 4 times per day instead of two. And since they also lack the feature that allows the compressor to restart after the hi-limit thermostat cuts-off, it takes more time before the temperature drops back in the freezer. 

 

I had a fridge that had the wrong type defrost timer installed. I replaced it with the original type and it's much better like that! It uses less energy, there are less temperature variations in the freezer and less strain on both the refrigerating and defrost systems with just two defrosts per day. 

 

 

This is the replacement timer that used to be in my fridge... The main reason why I replaced it is because it was getting noisy I found other advantages in using the original type.

 

[Unimatic1140]

Robert, do you know what kind of defrost timer was used for your fridge?
It is a Frigidaire replacement. It only runs the defrost cycle for about 15 minutes, not for 32 as the original was designed and it does it two times per day.

I do have a used original that I tested and it seems to work fine. We can try that one and see if we notice any difference in performance.

 

[redcarpetdrew]

Yay for happy refrigerators!

I was wondering about the heaters. Congrats on a successful repair. Ya know, you just might have a career as a appliance repairman if that pesky computer oriented job drives you crazy! Lol!

I saw a wedding ring!!! Did you two ever give us a picture of hands holding each other with the rings?

RCD

 

[philr]

If it defrosts twice a day, it's OK. 15 minutes can be a bit short however. Usually, that's about the time it takes with the original 12 hour / 32 minutes timers as the compressor restarts as soon as the hi-limit thermostat opens but if the system needs more time to defrost it could extent to 32 minutes. As these fridges get older, they sometimes have wet foam insulation below their evaporator and that can increase the time needed to trip the defrost thermostat. Probably not that much on 1964 models because their thermostat isn't sitting on the freezer floor like it was on some previous models. Many replacement defrost timers are set to defrost for 21 minutes every 6 hours. Some are set for 30 minutes every 8 hours. If you want to replace your defrost timer with the orogonal type, replacements with 5 terminals often show on eBay for cheap.

 

[hooverwheelaway]

Update!

So it's been a month now and we're happy to report that the fridge is running just perfectly! There's not a crystal of frost to be found in the freezer! It cycles twice a day, at 9:12 am and pm... Usually goes 11 or 12 minutes then kicks back in. For the first time in a while, the compressor has been cycling on and off multiple times a day, and we've been able to turn the dial in the fridge to the lowest "cold" setting -- by lowest, I mean warmest... And both the fridge and freezer have been holding temperature in the safe zones.

Yay!

 

[a440]

Great News!
I know you guy's are happy!

 

[philr]

That's great!

Did you keep the aftermarket defrost timer or did you replace it? I assume you replaced it as it defrosts twice a day!

Now that you don't have issues with your defrost system, you can also do another test if you want:
First, see how cold the freezer and refrigerator sections are. At the actual warmest setting of the cold control, the temperature in the freezer should stay above 0 degrees F.

If the freezer is already near or at 0 degrees, then your cold control is probably a bit off as the temperature should be too warm in the freezer at this setting. As long as its working fine like that, you could leave it like that!

But the refrigerating system should be able to drop the temperature in the freezer much below 0 degrees too. If the temperature in the freezer is already at -5 degrees F at the warmest setting of the cold control, you don't want to move it to a colder position as the compressor probably won't cycle off. If it's already colder than that at the warmest setting, it's too cold! But if the temperature is at the expected 5 or 10 degrees F, you should move the control to a slightly colder setting.

In that situation:
Turn the cold control to a colder setting to see if the compressor still cycles on and off and monitor the temperature in the freezer. Do it gradually and wait for at least a day each time you move the control to monitor the changes.
If everything is fine with the refrigerating system and the insulation, the compressor will still cycle on and off (but with slightly longer "on" times) and the temperature in the freezer should drop much below 0 degrees F once the setting is too cold.
If there's a problem, the temperature probably won't drop at or much lower than 0 degrees in the freezer and the compressor won't cycle off.

In both cases, that would cause the temperature in the refrigerator to drop slightly too which is normal.

The bulb for the cold control in this model senses the temperature in the freezer, so setting it to a colder setting should drop the temperature mostly in the freezer. You should also notice that once the temperature gets cold in the refrigerator, the thermostatically-operated aiflow control should partially close the ventilation in the refrigerator automatically when the compressor and fan are working (you can feel the amount of air that circulates from the main air outlet above the cover for the light bulbs if you hold the light switch pushed as if the refrigerator door was closed). But even if that works fine, the temperture in the refrigerator section might get a bit too low if the compressor doesn't cycle off sometimes as there is still some restricted airflow when the control closes.

 

[hooverwheelaway]

Hi Phil,

 

I don't remember which timer we put back in offhand, either way it seems to be working just fine.

 

I should have actually looked at the dial in the fridge before I posted that last night.  It's on the "A" setting.  Seems sort of backwards the way Frigidaire did it:  (warm) 3 - 2 - 1 - A -B - C (cold).  In any case, we have it set at A.  The freezer is about 4*F and the fridge fluctuates between 30*F and 40*F, depending on where it is in the cycle and if the door's been opened, etc...

 

Thanks for all of the info!  I think for now though, we're just going to leave well-enough alone.  If it ain't broke...

 

 

 

[philr]

That seems fine! It also means your cold control is OK!

 

[funktionalart]

Sorry to reopen a 3-year old thread…!

Just thought what I am going to post here should be included as my post relates to the same series of 60s Frigidaire refrigerator units. Mine is a 1963 FPI-16B-63--photos included here are of some wiring I unearthed today in my freezer compartment.

Here's my concern: The unit works just fine. I'm not trying to fix anything that isn't broken or mess with a good thing! BUT: this refrigerator has been running in a spare room all by itself. Nothing else near it or plugged in. I decided to finally install this in my kitchen and got one hell of a shock (literally) when I touched it today. I have NOT got a 3-prong grounded corset on it (am definitely going to remedy that ASAP). Cord is still original.

Because I had an old recollection of reading this thread years back, I decided to open up the freezer compartment and see if there was any loose/corroded wiring or other issues. It took some digging, but I managed to pull out the orange drain heater. It seems fine--nice and supple--no problems~however a grey wire showed up when I pulled this cluster of wires out. It has no cap on it and I don't know where or IF it should even be connected with any others.

As I say, this unit works just fine so can I presume that simply capping or electric taping this single grey wire (along with adding a 3-prong cordset)--my electric shock issue might probably go away? Pics of this are below, along with some other random ones I took while I was down on the floor!

BTW~PhilR…if you see this post, can you advise on replacement for that perished rubber "U" shaped mount I show in the last photo?

 

[philr]

Allen, I also had to replace this mount on one of my fridges, I couldn't locate the original part so I used a piece of rubber to replace it.

The only gray wire I see in my plans is the one that goes from the refrigerator section's light switch to the freezer fan. Does your blower still stop when you open the refrigerator's door? Is the wire that's cut still live (check with the refrigerator door closed).

As for your electrical shock, If it's not related to the gray wire that has been cut, I can tell you it's often caused by defrost heater that's shorted to the ground. It might still work but it makes the whole cabinet live.

The first thing to check (assuming the fridge has been used recently and the freezer coil is still wet) is the conductivity between each of the two blade connectors of the plug (with the plug disconnected from the outlet of course!) and the cabinet with a multimeter on the "ohms" reading. If it's still shorted, you'll see some conductivity on one of the blades of the plug and metallic parts of the cabinet (the one you touched when you got a shock should work!). If you see that there's some conductivity, you have to figure what causes that condition. If there's no conductivity, you might have temporarily "fixed" the situation by moving something or letting the freezer compartment dry from not being used for some time.
But if there's still a short, the first thing to try is to disconnect the defrost heater to see if you still have conductivity between the plug and the cabinet.

Also, I see that your defrost timer has been replaced, probably with a 4 wire model. There is probably a green wire that has been disconnected somewhere. This green wire is NOT a ground and it shouldn't touch the cabinet. Since the compressor was replaced by another Frigidaire compressor and the defrost timer also seems to be a replacement from Frigidaire, there are good chances that the person who fixed it knew what he was doing so there might not be issues with the wires. But it's still good to have a look at that.

Here are a few pics of the pages of the service manual that might help you with the wiring. I can't send you the whole manual as I don't have an internet connection at home and I'm just relying on my limited data plan on my phone.

If you find that the defrost heater is shorted, the good news is that a similar replacement part is still available. It's a bit tricky to replace but I have done it on a few similar 1964 fridges (but not on my 1963 yet!).

 

[funktionalart]

Phil~Thanks for this. I will have to do some work sorting this out…I just found it odd that this "shock" situation never happened before I moved the refrigerator into the kitchen to put it to use. It was in another room holding cold drinks and never did it shock me in there.

Yes, my fan works properly via the door light switch as it should. Open door, fan stops. Close door, it resumes. I'm just so reluctant to mess about with any wiring on this refrigerator--just because everything works perfectly on it. And that defrost heater heats up fast and nicely. But as you outline…full investigation
is definitely in order. Getting strong shock off the cabinet is really scary…!

Any ideas what the date/rating of the replacement compressor might be? When I first bought this a couple years back, you'd asked me about it and I really didn't know. I only knew it was replacement based on it being painted white vs. black. It seems to be an identical unit to the original, but I've no idea what the hp rating is. Pic of it is #6 up above…

As for that rubber mount--I'm sure I can craft my own--was just hoping that it was something that might be available already made. I shouldn't hope for anything like that for a 55 year old appliance though…!

 

[philr]

Did you happen to touch something else than the fridge when you got the strong shock? Usually it happens when you touch something else that's conductive and grounded (a sink if there's one nearby or your kitchen range for example).

 

[funktionalart]

Well, I had on a steel watch, and the fridge is placed right next to a KitchenAid KDS23 dishwasher…the range is on the opposite wall. Also, the electric cord on the refrigerator is original, and not a 3-pin grounded type (I'm about to remedy that…).