Uganda's proposed laws

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tomturbomatic

Well-known member
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May 21, 2001
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This is not pleasant, especially the beginning of the clip, but for those of you who do not watch Rachel Maddow on MSNBC, it is news that you might not be receiving. As she explains, the pending draconian legislation in Uganda against homosexuals is the product of right-wing political and religious figures FROM OUR COUNTRY, THE USA. It gives a terrifying picture of what they would like to do here. The world's reaction so far is also tragically similar to the reaction to Hitler's plans. I wonder if President Obaba is aware of the actions of the man he chose to deliver the prayer at his inauguration and if he is, if he cares. Warren and the politicians involved seem to have conveniently adopted a "hands-off" policy now that they have set this in motion. Those of you who think Keven is too extreme in his fear of those who preach hate in the name of a loving Creator might want to listen closely or twice even.

I asked for permission from Robert before posting this just to see if my fear and anger were too over the line for this forum. This evil is what the USA is exporting and we demonize the religious intolerance exported by other countries. None of it is good, but the United States of America sure gave up a lot of moral authority to criticize by being part of this. I cannot tell you how bad I feel.

 
Tom,

May God bless you for this. I have held off on asking Robert about posting here on this for two weeks now, because I didn't want to burden him with another flame war. I have been very actively engaged in trying to do something about it, there are several blogs where this has been a topic for weeks now. Early skepticism has given way to dawning realization: Yes, being gay is grounds to murder someone in a Christian country. Which, by the way, Uganda is.

The Commonwealth and the German government among others are threatening to cut off all aid if they go through with this. Sweden, today, did - over $50 million/year.

Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestierte.

* When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
Martin Niemoeller

This was my last post on this thread. I'm staying out of this one because I don't want to see people start to swing from the scaffolds only for the satisfaction of fighting another flame war.

Again, Tom, my deepest thanks.
 
I don't want to believe it, but

I do!

Scary beyond words.

Thank you, Tom, for bringing this to my attention.

I am on the HRC email list, and I am wondering why I haven't heard from THEM about this?

Lawrence/Maytagbear
 
Nice opinion piece. Light on the facts and heavy on the "let's blame conservatives" instead of doing what we can to force Uganda to abandon the bill or help gay Ugandans. Perfect. Blame, blame, blame. Can't wait to see how the keyboards burn up in this forum now. Thanks for inflaming.

A perfect example why Applianceville should be related to appliances, how to use/fix them, additives, and happy birthday type announcements. You want to post crap like this, go find yourself a nice political blog.

I'm out.

And now, heeeeeeeeeerrrrreeee's Keven!
 
Subject Drift

As Americans we have assumed a role of paying for and attempting to "fix" problems we assume blame for. Too often the issue of the day gains our attention while the wheels are falling off our best intentions in the quieter news lines of days gone by. I support retracting more and more of our money and influence to focus on the many issues social and political that plague us in the new millenium in our own country. As humans we haven't evolved very far from the hunter and the hunted and frankly it entertains us. That's what frightens me.
 
Hatred is Hatred:

I cannot say that I agree completely with Maddow, but I can certainly see that America is coming from a very flawed place these days.

There was a time when American values were inclusionary; we overcame the prejudices of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries to become that famous "melting pot" writers used to speak of. It certainly was not perfect; racism was not only rampant, it was in many places codified into law. And of course, gay rights were unheard-of.

But still, we - as a nation and a people - tried. The Armed Forces began desegregation efforts in the 1940s. A Civil Rights Act guaranteeing equality to racial minorities was passed in 1964. Even the efforts of gay pioneers like Frank Kameny were met with due process along with the hostility (Kameny has suffered long and much for his beliefs, but he has attained a ripe old age and lived to see his name honoured). I can easily remember churches - and synagogues - playing one another's softball teams. An interracial marriage - that of Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz - was completely accepted and even held up as a model for America. John F. Kennedy and Richard Nixon were bitter political enemies - and personal friends. Tolerance was our watchword, and if it was sometimes honoured more in the breach than in the observance, we still knew what tolerance was, and we knew that our best hope for the future was to strive for it.

Today, our nation and its people are a model of intolerance. The Republicans get elected and sweep away as much as possible of what Democrats have done. Democrats get elected and do the same thing. The rhetoric coming from both our major parties is crafted to polarise the electorate. We have put the civil rights of a significant minority of our population up to popular vote. We live in ghettos of our own making, living in neighbourhoods full of people just like us, watching cable channels that feed us exactly what we want to see and hear instead of challenging us with differing viewpoints, and permitting our politics to choose our friends, jobs and partners for us.

We have forgotten that we cannot ourselves be respected if we do not respect others. Anyone who votes to keep civil rights away from another person has weakened his own position in life, because the day and the circumstances may come when someone else will question whether he should be equal to others. Anyone who defames the politics of another will have to bear a return volley of equally vicious rhetoric. Anyone who condemns another religion has exposed his own as an emotional convenience or a social pastime, not genuine faith.

There is a reason the world is in so much trouble, and that reason is disrespect. For some unfathomable reason, it has become fashionable to believe that one's own viewpoint, nationality, politics and religion are all so correct or desirable that all others are deserving only of contempt. The "melting pot" has been abandoned; we sit in various residential, social and religious ghettos of our own making and we refuse to leave them to meet and know others outside them. The result is that Dems hate Repubs, Repubs hate Dems, Christians demonise Muslims, Muslims demonise Christians, and everybody wants immigration controlled, though the parametres of that control vary along with individual prejudices.

Until we get back to a societal ethic of inclusion instead of trying to decide who is the "right kind" of American, this nation has very little business exporting values to other countries. How can America effectively deplore the Taleban when people here have their rights struck down by religious fundamentalist organisations working our political system for all it's worth? How can we act horrified over "ethnic cleansing" in other countries when the urban sprawl of our own major cities is largely the result of "white flight"? How can we have a great nation when a banker and CEO class display absolute contempt for the rights and needs of our workers as they pursue their obscene bonuses?

My own estimation is that this nation has no more than a few years to turn its collective psyche around if it ever wants to reattain its status as the symbol of freedom it has traditionally represented abroad. Our reputation has taken a bad hit internationally; America is no longer spoken of abroad with the respect it once enjoyed in civilised nations. And we cannot cherry-pick what we will and won't respect, as we try to do now; the failed policies of the Bush administration have a lot to do with our loss of prestige abroad, but so does the fact that other countries have been able to pass marriage or civil partnerships for all their citizens, and our fundamentalist contingent here has seen to it that we have not - in what is supposed to be the land of the free.

Respect is the way, folks, and considering all the trouble we in now, this would be a very good time to begin giving it on our own, individual level, and demanding it from those higher on the food chain.

I'm off my soapbox. For the moment, anyway.
 
brought back shivers

I do not post much on the board even though I have been a longtime member. But listening to news cast reminded me of when I was living in NYC during the early eighties in the infancy of AIDS. There was such serious talks of segregating us to "Camps". Then I was scared... This brought back all the fears again. Not of being Gay but the stigmatic AIDS Label .. but after 21 years of dealing with HIV myself I would hate to have that thought of hanging in the back of my mind as did the segregation camps did.

Philippe
 
I know that my profile says 2008

I do not want people to think I am lying about being a long time member I do believe it was around 2001

but I think there was something with my ISP and the site I had to be reset ...
 
I too was reluctant to post this hate story from Uganda, TRMS has been all over this. You guys know sometimes i get things twisted, but i think the 3 "ringleaders"/advisors to Uganda on this antigay policy are residents of the U.S. *I could not call them Americans. I am so ashamed. alr2903
 
alr2903

If you do something for the gays in Uganda you don't have to be ashamed but you can be proud of yourself. We'll have to take the politics out of this topic and get full support from all members no matter what political conviction they have. There are lives on stake, let's forget the differences and do something.
 
Thanks for posting this

And lets not forget other countries who have strict laws on homosexuals such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc where you can be put to death for homosexual acts.
John
 
Yes, let's not forget.

Uganda's bill would allow a death sentence in so-called "aggrevated homosexuality" cases, which is defined in the bill as adult sex with a same-sex minor, rape of same-sex disabled people and intentional transmission of HIV.

As absurd as this is, laws against homosexuality in Iran, Saudi Arabia and many other Islamic countries are far more repressive. They define it as "mischief against Islam", which means any public admission of homosexuality or political organization by gay people (which is what these governments really fear) can be immediately repressed.
 
I would like my last opinion on this,

First, those are some $%@#*@up senators in Washington for the mere suggestion on absence would reduce HIV. Please, get real. I have been a public health nurse for over 20 years and that this absence things DOES NOT WORK!! We (and our governmental officials) need to wise up and get their head out of their butts and start educating our children as young as middle school on effective sex education, correct condom use, have birth control available. Until we do this, we will continue to have more HIV/AIDS cases, other STDs, and thousands of unplanned pregnancies. But the real issue is, I know, is that as a results of the absence thing in Uganda, many of our gay brothers are not only dying of AIDS, but are losing their lives for expressing their sexuality. This makes me very sad :( And for one last final thing, Rachael ROCKS!! and many thanks for her for putting unknown story on the air.

John
 
The goals of Abstinance Education

The primary goal was to make money off the government. Untold millions of dollars paid by citizens to the government have been funneled to conservative political and religious organizations to develop and teach this bull crap to kids with raging hormones. Hell, if old men elected to public office can't keep their pants zipped, why do they expect kids to be able to do so?
Next, it makes parents and other adults feel better because their little darlings won't have to hear about icky sexual things and the parents won't have to think about their little darlings DOING IT. Meanwhile, little Suzi is putting out like a coke machine and junior is coming like a freight train as often as they can get to each other and without the benefit of contraception. The white power extablishment is playing the odds with this. They know that the white birth rate is falling while the birth rate of minorities is rising. They figure unplanned white babies will find good homes and the teen parents are probably not whoring around enough to be exposed to HIV, YET. After the first kid, the parents will probably bow to reality and put their daughters on birth control, but by then another white child was born that might not have been born. That's the same reason that white men lead the fight against abortion.

The US officials and religious leaders who visit Uganda don't give a damn about the lives there. They are looking for another place to sell their abstinence education program and homophobia. It is a real money maker for their supporters. It also gives them a place to indulge their fantasies of killing homosexuals; sort of sublimating their own suppressed same sex longings. If they can't kill their own desires, then they can do the next best thing and kill homosexuals in a country where they think that they can get away with it. Without condoms, people are going to spread HIV which will kill them. If they get caught having sex, they can be killed or imprisoned under the new law.

Of course, these leaders from the United States have played an even greater trick on themselves than they have played on anybody else. They did not realize how slick evil is. They thought that they would use a bit of lying and deceit to indulge their bigotry and self-loathing and hide from the truth about themselves by persecuting others. They did not realize when they became ensnared by evil. They do not know how it owns them totally. They are so blind to the truth and so blinded by evil that they cannot see the pattern of how their partners in crime are inexorably brought to shame and humiliation one by one and very publicly. They are as doomed as the poor people they are trying to murder in Uganda. They are so into their murderous plans that they cannot imagine cosmic justice drawing a bead on them.

None of this, however, relieves us from doing all we can to try to stop their murderous plans.
 
Latest news

Uganda has dropped the death penalty due to economical pressure as it seems. There are still anti gay laws being passed though, but the penalties are going to be more towards curing people from homosexuality. A bit better but still bad...

 

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