Unexplainable Experiences

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Sudsmaster, your information is out of date. This isn't about ghosts and goblins, it's about physics and neurobiology. Check out the following and get back to us....

For anyone who's intersted in theory, go here:
http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/
And here:
http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/
Look up Hameroff's paper on "orchestrated objective reduction", typically abbreviated as "orch-OR". See also the article about same, here, and this in fact is a very good place to start:
http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/wiki.htm
Note, Penrose is a mathematician; Hameroff's background is as an anaesthesiologist who got interested in the problem of consciousness as related to anaesthesia. Their theory is presently regarded as one of the most complete and elegant theories of consciousness, and some of its testable predictions have been validated independently.

Also go here: http://consc.net/chalmers/
Chalmers was offered the chair of the philosophy dept at Oxford but he decided to go to Arizona to do CS, and now he's at the Australian Nat'l University doing philosophy.

One of his most interesting papers is here, but be forewarned, this is dense stuff and definitely not "lite" reading:
http://consc.net/papers/facing.html
 
Gee, Designgeek, one of your links backs up what I've been saying:

"Hobson maintains that dreams are noise whose bizarre character stems from the same neurochemistry responsible for hallucinations"

As for the rest, I may or may not delve through it. But I sincerely doubt any of it contains any peer-reviewed scientific experiments that prove that ESP, paranormal, ghosts, etc actually exist, except perhaps in the minds of the believers.
 
Suds, I've said in more than one place, including possibly around here, that dreams, like LSD imagery, are the result of neural noise. In the case of LSD, the noise is caused by the increased flow of random information across synapses (the compound mimics other neurotransmitters, etc.). In the case of dreams, the noise is caused by random impulse transmission during the "re-uptake" function that "cleans up" stray neurotransmitter molecules during sleep. (During the waking state, reuptake gets behind, stray neurotransmitters build up, and this causes some of the phenomena associated with tiredness. During sleep, with inputs attentuated and thought process slowed down significantly, reuptake gets ahead of output and you wake up feeling "refreshed" i.e. your brain having been cleaned up.)

However, the brain, being optimised for pattern-recognition, turns the noise into stories we call dreams, or acid trips as the case may be. (BTW I am *not* advocating the use of psychedelic drugs, they are in fact rather risky and there are far safer ways to explore one's mind nowadays).

But here we encounter an interesting question. Whence come the story plot, characters, setting, and so on...? Logically this stuff is signal (information) superimposed onto noise, and empirically we know that most of it comes from clearly discernable sources such as memory in waking life. But here is an intrinsic opening for other sources of inputs: direct perception being an obvious case. For example the other morning I woke up from a dream about friends who had gone through a house fire, to discover real-world fire engines at a real house fire across the street; clearly I had perceived the sirens and translated them into dream state input. Well, once we have the capability to introduce perceptual input into dreams, and we have a neural mechanism for quantum entanglement, what we end up with is a physical explanation for "ESP." And what works in one state of consciousness also works in others though differently.

As for "proof" that ESP is an actual occurrence: see Jahne & Dunne, _The Margins of Reality_, which covers the subject in more than sufficient detail. And please don't commit the obscurantist error of dismissing it a-priori. Read the research and get back to us.

I'll tell you this from personal experience: Once I got accustomed to the "oh, that's ESP and it's normal" feedback from my parents, I started thinking critically about those precognitive dreams and factored out all the possible cases of "inference from subconsciously-perceived patterns of events" and started looking for a mechanism. I was quite uncomfortable with the logical implication of complete predestination and determinacy. After all it's perfectly normal to prefer living in a universe where free will really means something! So here was this uncomfortable empirical fact staring me in the face, and that's what got me interested in dealing with the issue scientifically. I wanted to find explanations that were rigorous and stood up to scrutiny. I wasn't about to accept a deterministic universe if there was some other alternative. And at this point, I think the alternatives (Hameroff & Penrose, et. al.) are pretty darn good: low-level nonlocal signal that occasionally gets above the noise floor.

This is not an either/or, it's an and/both. So in a way I could also agree that it's "all in the mind:" I'm in your mind, you're in mine, and we're all connected whether we like it or not.
 
Friend related this afternoon nap-dream to me couple days ago:
<blockquote>I dreamt I had retired from the usaf and all of a sudden I had lost memory of the last 5 years.. I'd climbed up a tower and shot some people that deserved shooting, they'd shot me and put me in a nut house... as they explained what happened on a long drive in the country, I remembered right up to the point I did the shooting. I was okay with the law, innocent because of insanity.. had a bunch of other weird scenes that didn't relate, think it was because I had the tv volume up.</blockquote>
History channel turned on in the background, running something on WWII.

He said: subliminal script feed.
 
Designgeek,

Thanks for the references, but I don't think I need your permission to contribute to this thread. Therefore, I will feel free to post my opinion, like anyone else here, whether or not I read all the putative research links you've posted.

If there is ANY definitive peer-reviewed scientific proof of ESP or any other paranormal claim, please just post that link and nothing else. Your Jahne and Dunne reference appears to be a book, not a scientific paper.

My conclusion, so far: there is no proof, it's more of wishful thinking on the part of those who want to find patterns where none exist.
 
PS-Here's an excerpt from a review of the Jahne and Dunne book from Amazon.com:

This book recounts very interesting research into the ability of humans to influence random events such as coin-tossing. This is extensively documented in technical detail, with graphs of many hundreds of thousands of trials, over which strong statistical significance shows up even though the influence is less than 1% per trial and therefore not casually noticeable.
There is also an intriguing those less detailed section about remote viewing, in which one person can describe the surroundings of another person at a different location in space or even time. Again the statistics indicate a significant effect.

However, the credibility built up by this is severely dented by the rest of the book, which attempts to outline a theoretical basis for this in terms of a 'quantum mechanics of consciousness'. This eyewash is just embarrassing to read - e.g. many pages expended on arguing for the existence of physical analogs such as 'consciousness distance', 'consciousness mass' etc. on the grounds that we sometimes speak of being 'deep in thought', 'light-hearted', etc. The quality of this reasoning speaks for itself. A few pages later and these spurious variables are being incorporated into quantum-mechanical equations. Oh dear.

Unfortunately this shows the danger of scientists wandering out of their field into discussions of mind and metaphysics, which are topics in philosophy - a subject in which these authors are complete amateurs without appearing to realize it. Their blunders are so elementary as to be laughable to anyone with a knowledge of metaphysics.

The extensive bibliography cites endless references to Freud, Jung and other people in loosely related subjects without including a single mention of anyone who knows about philosophy, with the marginal exception of William James (who is a century out of date anyway).

 
This is an amazing and mysterious world we live in, full of contradictions and ambiguitues. Keats worked out a theory called "negative cabability" in which he postulated that some people are able to hold confortably in their consciousness, two thoroughly contadictory and opposing fields of thought, simultaneously. Poets, film makers, dreamers, and washing machine lovers seem to have little trouble doing so. To borrow The Laundress's signature rhetorical device: "one" can fully enjoy the theory that dreams are the effect of random, neural, electrical activitiy, just as easily as one can celebrate the notion that dreams are gifts from another dimension of reality. We have all had the dream where something in the physical world--the fire engine, for example--works its way into-- or actually creates !--the dream. But many of us have also had dreams of startling and unforgettable insight that seem to have come from Elsewhere. Modern Quantum Physics insists that the farther inward we go into the analysis of matter, the more outrageous the findings. Everything seems possible--even God!

In one of the last chapters of Ann Faraday's work, she talks about a tribe of people whose entire culture is based upon their ludic dreaming. (Lucid differs from vivid dreaming in that lucid dreamers are able to control the dream, which takes years of practice and most people are unable to achieve it.) I have not succeeded.

When the dreamers get up in the morning, they share thier night time experiences. Later, as part of the day's work they use a variety of artistic modes to fashion a gift from the dream.

Faraday's book "Dream Power" which I read in graduate school has stayed in my memory a lot longer than the work of Jung or even Freud's "Interpretation of Dreams." Hers is the work that recommends facing and fighting any dark or predatory presence one meets in dreams. The bad guy will then either flee, or submit and reveal something.

Matty, you might love this book. Try the library or amazon.com. I gave my copy away ages ago.

Quantum Physics and Designgeek agree: We are all connected to each other, and issue from the same life force, whatever it may turn out to be-- perhaps a humongous washing machine!!! Wouldn't that be sweet?

Mikey
 
My House

My house is a 1968 Split Level. It is triangulated by two funeral homes, one with a cemetary, and a hospital. We have had paranormal occurances starting the first night after we moved in. My wife saw a shadow come up the stairs. I saw it later the same night. There has never been a pic taken inside the house that didn't have orbs.

They seem to like the formal dining room upstairs and the downstairs den. We have lights turn themselves off and on. The TV will turn itself off when you are watching it. The stereo comes on in the middle of the night. We are so used to it that we just deal with it. Nothing negative has ever happened.
 
I half grew up in a small New England town. Our neighborhood backed into some empty land, which we called "the woods". The woods were a great place to explore and play. On the other side of the woods were several extended cemetaries, and in those days nobody thought anything of going in there and looking at the pretty granite and marble tombstones. I never had a thought of ghosts emanating from the cemetaries. Just the usual monsters under the bed, LOL.
 
I have certainly had my share of experiences with things that go bump in the night. Sometimes I think I have a ghost living with me in my current home. Unfortunately, having bought this house out of foreclosure, I really have no idea of what this house has seen because I haven't had any contact with the previous owners. None of my neighbors have been here long enough to know the history of my pad, e.g. births, deaths, or other events it has housed. I have seen and heard strange things like unexplainable flashes of light, strange noises, and even the old not finding things where or how I left them. I don't think that whatever is doing this intends any harm, I just think they are communicating with us. I also think our dogs are even more in tune with these things than we are. My dog will sometimes fixate on a certain spot in a room and act like an unseen person is there.
I know that the Pacific Northwest is home to several Indian tribes. Some of which are the Tulalip, Lummi, Stillaguamish, Nooksack, Chehalis, Nisqually, & Samish just to name a few. For all I know, I could be on an old burial ground.
But whatever the case, I too have had a few hair-raising experiences.
 
another one

well, i've had another night terror thing. However i was not at home at the time, me and my buddies went camping down in WA's southern country towns (we stayed at Dwellingup, beautiful place, have included a link for interests sake). Anyways, instead of taking down indidvidual tents we took down a big marquee tent that everyone could sleep in. There were five of us sleeping in the tent, four on the back wall and one at the bottom near the entrance, it was a bit squishy but we all fitted nicely. Now i could not sleep a wink, went to bed at about 1:00am and my air mattress was slightly deflated and i was a bit tipsy so i just disregarded it and laid down. Anyway, throughout the night i just laid awake not being able to fall asleep, kept looking at my watch every coupla mins ( i do that when i'm bored or anxious, look at my watch obsessivley). I was looking at my watch and i remember the time being 3:09am, when i dropped my watch from my face i noticed a shadow of a person near the west wall of the tent, i looked up and checked to see if everyone was in the tent, (just so i knew noone was taking a leak outside causing a shadow on the wall). Thinking it was just another camper on his way to the bathroom or something i turned away, but when i turned back here was another shadow right next to me. This time hoever i did not freak out, i just looked at it, then looked at the other one, if i looked at neither shadows then one would appear wherever i looked, they stayed away tho, didn't approch me like other times. maybe it was because i was surrounded by people. After about ten minutes of looking at them they just disappeared and i got up, walked outside for a drink and walked back inside and went back to bed, about half an hour later paul woke up and said i had been talking in my sleep, saying things like "i don't care" and "just ignore it". I don;t remember falling asleep and definately don't remember speaking so i think i must have been dreaming this one, tho i remember it as if it were clear as day, watching them, getting up, getting a drink from the cooler, stepping in the wet patch under the cooler and going back to bed. It was horribly confusing but then again this weekend has been very dramatic (i won't go into details other wise it'll become a novel, not a posting lol). I have put a pic of the sleeping arrangements in the tent so you can see how close we were, i was on the blue bed on the left, ben in the middle and nat and paul on the right double mattress. Just thought i would let you guys know (totally forgot about this thread till i saw people had posted on it again lol!)
Take care all,
Matt
P.S: anyone wanting other pictures of the camp or to hear the wacky stories then i will post on request)
TTFN (Ta Ta For Now)

http://www.westernaustralia.com/en/search/product.htm?ID=9005033
 
Sudsmaster, clearly you don't need my or anyone else's permission to post your opinions. BTW, an Amazon review does not make for having read the book (it's merely another opinion about the book), and if it's peer-reviewed papers you want, there are plenty in the bibliography. But you're welcome to believe whatever you like, for whatever reason you choose.

PeteK, the "collective unconcsious" is a term coined by Jung in the Western psychoanalytic tradition, to refer to psychodynamic themes that are universals among individuals within given cultures. It offers an interesting starting point for other ideas, some of which translate to modern terms.

As for lucid dreaming, the reason it's not more common is because most people aren't "lucid" (i.e. aware of the state they are in) when they are awake. This is a purely functional explanation that generates a testable hypothesis: that lucid dreaming can be increased by training oneself to be lucid (state-aware) while awake: the waking-state habit carries over into the dream state, and you get lucidity. However, based on Hameroff et. al. I would have to guess there is a physiological explanation as to why some people are more predisposed toward lucid dreaming than others are, regardless of their degree of lucidity in the waking state. That is, lucid dreamers who are not habitually lucid in the waking state are an anomaly to my hypothesis, suggesting a more complete explanation is at least partially elsewhere, and neurophysiological traits are a good place to start.

MickeyD, interesting that you mention Keats' "negative capability." I know about that one and I agree. Rare these days to hear anyone mention it; and could be an entire topic in its own right.

Re. training for lucid dreaming: Just get in the habit of asking yourself, during the day, "what state am I in, and how do I know?" That habit should carry over into the dream state after a while, plus or minus neurophysiological differences that remain to be explored more thoroughly.

If anyone here wants to experiment with psi, here's a simple test you can run. Get a 10-sided die (typically found at game shops) and a small opaque box with removable lid (a cubical wooden jewelry box will do nicely). Put the die in the box. Shake the box a few times, then put it down on the table. Guess the number that's facing up: write down your guess, write down a note describing your mood as either "pleasant," "neutral," or "unpleasant." The lift the lid and look at the die, and write down the actual number that's showing.

Do this ten times in a row for each test run. Do a test run any time you feel like it. Keep track of results; sort them into categories by mood. Statistically you should score one correct call out of every ten rolls of the die. Overall statistical significance depends on the total number of calls in each mood category. Evidence for psi activity (e.g. remote viewing of the die inside the box) depends on statistically significant deviations from the chance expectation of 10% correct. I can say more about statistical methods later, if anyone wants to try this and starts collecting results. BTW a good negative is as useful as a good positive, i.e. if you do this and end up with chance scores, report that also because it's useful data.

Matty, it sounds like you're making major progress there. The shadowy figures didn't scare you this time, you dealt with them in a deliberate manner. I think the reason they didn't approach you wasn't because you were surrounded by other people, but because at some level you're feeling more confident in dealing with them. Being surrounded by friends could increase your sense of confidence, but I think the credit for this is primarily your own. It may happen that from time to time you do get scared by the figures, but those cases will be exceptions, and the general trend will be increasing confidence in dealing with them: getting scared less and less often until you've dealt with them altogether in a satisfactory manner. Do keep us posted.
 
Design said: Re. training for lucid dreaming: Just get in the habit of asking yourself, during the day, "what state am I in, and how do I know?" That habit should carry over into the dream state after a while, plus or minus neurophysiological differences that remain to be explored more thoroughly.

Me says: not an easy task to remember to ask yourself what state you are in when you're already "unconscious" of yourself most of the time during your waking period. Helps to have help from someone else or at the least set a clock or alarm watch to reawaken you to your own reality. I should listen to my own advice sometimes LOL
 
I Wasn't Going To Add To This Post But...

During the first week of Jan. 2001 I had a dream that I was standing next to an open grave. At first I thought it was a premonition that my aunt was going to die. She had already been in the hospital 4 weeks with leg complications due to diabetes. Well she pulled through ok but, the next week my cousin's husband died in his sleep one afternoon. Then the following week my dad's cousin passed away from Alzheimer's at age 49. The 3rd week my mother-in-law passed away from congestive lung failure. The day we buried my MIL my Dad's best friend died from a fungal infection which destroyed his heart. So I believe in the power that dreams have to foretell the future, if we choose to believe them.
 
Matt, I think I know what you are going through

Had my own "Night Terrors" for a while coming and going, very similar like Joe describes about his partner.
It mainly occured the time when I was just about to fall asleep. Out of the sudden I felt like paralized, saw things scaring me half to death and I took these creatures for real and alive. The amount of fear you feel in such a moment is just beyond every compare.
I was talking to my Doctor about it and he said this phenomena is compareable with an epileptic seizure. Some people tend to drift into something like a third condition between awakeness and sleep when they fall asleep. And I shouldn`t worry. By and by I have learned to deal with these "attacks" easily as I was confirmed that this is neither threatening my life nor sanity. Haven`t had any of such trouble in years.
Believe it or not, a cup of coffee after such an experience always let me sleep like a baby.
Hope this will help you
Stefan
 
Careful about caffeine intake, it can actually cause problems of that type. Some people have what's known as a "paradoxical reaction," e.g. Mrboilwash above.

Re. that intermediate state: it's known as the "hypnagogic state." For some people (including me) it consists primarily of *very* intense visual imagery of the type normally associated with psychedelic drugs, with more or less full normal awareness. For others it's more dreamlike, with storyplots or characters of whatever kind. For many it includes awareness of the change whereby your brain shuts down the motor nerves that give you normal control over your limbs. The latter is an evolved survival trait to prevent people acting out the motions they are going through in their dreams (sleepwalking is an example of this: clearly hazardous).

If you're conscious while the motor nerve shutdown process is occurring, you may find it pleasant (feeling as if you're floating or flying) or unpleasant (feeling as if paralysed, as per Mrboilwash above).

Tangentially related to these phenomena, are "out of body experiences," which consist of perceiving as if you are located at a point other than within your physical body. These can also be pleasant or unpleasant, and can range from dreamlike to entirely fantasy to highly realistic. In some cases there are "objective correlates," i.e. you perceive something that can later be verified as objectively correct. The latter may be examples of remote viewing. For more on this topic see Robert Monroe, _Journeys Out of the Body_, which is a detailed personal account by a late 20th century observer. Personal anecdotes don't make for concrete proof, but the research to date is interesting and does show occasional evidence of remote viewing along with unusual EEG patterns during this state. Monroe founded a research organization to develop the means of reproducing the state in a replicable manner, and achieved a measure of success in this: the state can be readily induced in about 40% of people, though the remote viewing aspect is still relatively rare. More about this later if anyone's interested.
 

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