unfairness

[suburbanmd]

What I wrote to Consumer Reports

Below, in italics, is the text of my letter that CR round-filed.  Sorry for the inconsistent line breaks; I'm having trouble getting corrections to "stick".

The British and Australian members here may not realize that US-market washing machines (except Miele) don't have temperature markings, they just say Hot or Warm or Cold.  Those can correspond to any temperature the manufacturer wants, and it's hard to find out what the temperatures are. Forum discussions indicate that they're getting cooler and cooler. Some of our washers have internal heaters, but they don't work on all cycles.  On the cycles where they do work, the wash cycle may end at a fixed time, whether or not the water has reached the target temperature.

<span style="font-size:11.0pt">By way of introduction, I’m a long-time Consumer Reports subscriber, since 1987.<o></o></span>

While doing research on
clothes washers recently, I learned something that surprised me about federal <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px; ">regulation of washers.  Specifically, the mandatory energy conservation standard for clothes washers, being the same for
top-loaders and front-loaders, is actually a very forgiving standard when </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px; ">applied to front-loaders.  Incentive for further energy and water conservation in front-loaders comes from a program of
manufacturer tax credits.  This fact is at odds with the prevalent public belief that washer manufacturers’ hands are
tied by federal regulations, and therefore deficiencies in recent models simply
have to be tolerated.  </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px; ">I feel the public should be
educated about how clothes washers are regulated.  Consumers should be told that shortcomings
due to lowered wash temperatures, inadequate rinsing, and limited internal
heater use (especially important when an HE washer is far from the house water heater) are not inevitable.  Such
knowledge might lead to more consumer choice in clothes washers.</span>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px; ">For example, buyers who want
a front-loader with hotter wash temperatures, better use of the internal water
heater, and higher rinse levels could, in theory, get a machine programmed
thus, by paying an extra amount equal to the tax credit that the manufacturer
would forego.  The extra amount could be
as little as $100, the difference between the stringent $250 performance tier
and the less stringent $150 tier.  Such a
machine targeted to allergic households might sell very well, and fill a real need. </span>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px; ">I would like to see Consumers
Union take the lead in disseminating the facts about clothes washer regulation,
and in advocating for more choices.</span>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px; ">Thank you for considering this matter.</span>

 

 

[hoover1100]

I once got it to three washing with the machine full, too fu

In a European front loader, the machine is only *full* when you can just about get your hand in on top of the clothes in the drum.

When the machine is filled this full, it will still wash everything perfectly, and will not make creasing worse.

Our machine has a 49l (1.7 cu.ft) drum and will more than happily wash 8 pairs of adults jeans perfectly, with no trouble at all.

Matt

 

[DADoES]

 
Why would three successive loads need to be done on the one evening?  Adapt and adjust.  I don't do all my laundry in one day.  I wait until I have a full load of a particular kind, or don't have enough of those items to last but 1 or 2 days longer.  Each type of load accumulates at a different rate and is done accordingly whenever the need arises .... towels/whites, jeans, casuals, bedding, etc.

 

[ronhic]

I'm with Matt....

A European style front-load machine is 'full' when the drum starts to move as you push things in on the top....

or

when washing, you can just spot the back of the drum when the machine pauses to change direction over the top of the wet washing....

Any less, and it is underloaded for a full cycle.

 

[autowasherfreak]

I spent a lot of money for my Frigidaire Gallery washer and dryer, and got about 6 years use out of them. I can't afford to spend the $1000.00 every five or six years for a new washer and dryer. I will stick with my  Maytag 806 until she dies, then I will get another top loader.  The only thing that I do miss from my front loader is the high speed spin, dying times are longer using the Maytag.

 

[dj-gabriele]

...when washing, you can just spot the back of the drum when

I LOVE YOU!

 

[pierreandreply4]

maytag maxima front load washer

yesterday i went to my local shoping center and as i left i look in the appliance department and i saw the new maytag maxima washer dryer set my dream set fro my next washer dryer set as my mother and me plan to stack them but i do all the wash load around the house just the washer cost 1800.00$ canadian dolar thats high robery for a washer that after 10 years of use needs to be replace as for the dryer and as for the dryer it cost $1,200.00
can if i round the amount

 

[3beltwesty]

USA washer size

Matt;

the machine I have here in the USA is just an average machine 27" in size, ie 4.2 cubic foot. At Home Depot it was the 2nd smallest LG machine in FL. A top load model is 7.0 cubic feet. To buy a 24" machine like yours requires mail ordering it and it costs double thus a home user will never do it.

A 24" machine in the USA is usually bought for a boat/yacht, or special thing where space is a premium and paying double is ok. If I vist dozen local stores that sell washers and look at several hundred washers, none are 24".

If I decided to just wash socks and wore 1 pair a day; one could go 1/4 year before filling up the USA's "just average" 4.2 cubic foot machine. The old 1976 machine here is about 2.2 to 2.5 cubic feet, not marketable in the USA anymore since "bigger" sells.

There are entry level TL machines in the USA at 3.2 cubic feet, some tend to shred clothes more and use more water. In FL machines there are ones in the 3.5 region; often then have less features, less vib isolation in the bottom low cost end.

Some of us here lost the bulk of ones clothes in Katrina, and now have a truncated amount of stuff. Thus if I just tried to "fill up the washer" with shirts; I could probably wait 1 month. The problem *here* is that I really do not have than many shirts; *plus* the darn stains if any tend to get set if one waits,

Thus here the machine I have typically has just 1 bar out of 4 showing with a wash load, and sometimes the load is too small so the washer gets confused too and delays the long wash cycle.

Maybe in Europe, Oz etc folks have more clothes; or smaller washers too.

In the USA here I tend to wash stuff that just got dirty/spotted before the stains set and do not wait weeks "to fill up the washer". Often in washing I wash "something extra" that may or may not need washing; so the machine senses "it has something to wash". 2 to 3 loads run after another are to separate colors from whites, or separate rather clean stuff from super dirty stuff ; never because the machine is full.

I WOULD buy a 1.7 to 2 cubic foot FL machine the same price as my new 599 buck FL washer; they are just not available here. True Sears has a Maytag MAH2400AWW 2.4 cu. ft machine for 599 bucks; but none are in stock. To get in to my house installed would cost about 180 more is what I was quoted. A Bosch 24" 3.4 cuft unit is about 1040 bucks; LG is about 750 for a 24" unit .

- Google Shopping

www.google.com

 

[ronhic]

To get in to my house installed would cost about 180 more is

What on earth for?

Surely the delivery fee isn't higher than a 'traditional' machine?

Just level it off, screw on the hoses, connect the drain and plug it in....

I will just clarify something though. You comment that

'Maybe in Europe, Oz etc folks have more clothes; or smaller washers too'

I have no idea what people have in their wardrobes, but I will say that there seems to be a great deal of confusion between 'size' and 'capacity'.

The American way of measuring in cu ft is not comparable to the rest of the worlds use of pounds/kilograms unless you look at the chart you provided in a previous forum. I've pulled it from the original document, but have not formatted, so sorry about the difficulty people may have reading it....

Basically, a 4.0cu ft machine should be tested with a load of about 7.5kg (16.5lb)and a 2.3cu ft machine, with 4kg (9lb)....but here's something interesting...

I've just read the owners manual for the following machines:

Whirlpool 2.3 cu. ft. I.E.C. Compact Front-Load Washing Machine (WFC7500V)
Whirlpool 4.0 cu. ft. WFW9050XW

..and let's take towels as the capacity measurement....

The 'normal' load for both machines according to the handbooks are:

2.3 cu. ft. - 8 bath towels, 8 hand towels and 10 wash cloths (page 17)
4.0 cu. ft. - 8 bath towels, 8 hand towels, 10 wash cloths AND one bath mat...(page 15)

Sorry, are you recommending (Whirlpool and undoubtedly other manufacturers) that a machine with a stated capacity over 70% larger can only wash an extra bathmat?

Now, the smaller one is European designed....and has similar cycles (adapted for the US) to the larger, US built machine. It is currently on offer through SEARS for $599....

All the above information proves to me is that Americans are being 'sold a fib'...these large capacity machines are actually not that big when it comes to what you can actually get clean in them. Their large size exacerbates the high G-forces when spinning potentially causes premature wear and they don't appear to do anything better than a smaller machine. In fact, they can't handle a small load nearly as well as the smaller machine will and they certainly don't have the capacity that their size would indicate...

Additionally, 3beltwesty, the smaller machine has a 30min quick cycle, the 'normal' cycles are faster than the larger machine AND you can get away with washing smaller loads in a smaller drum without the balance issues you have experienced yet still wash 95% of the capacity of the larger machine should you require it....

Bigger is not always better....

3.3.2Determine the test load as shown in the following table:

Container volume Test load
cu. ft.¡Ý< liter¡Ý< lb kg
0-0.80 0-22.7 3.00 1.36
0.80-0.90 22.7-25.5 3.50 1.59
0.90-1.00 25.5-28.3 3.90 1.77
1.00-1.10 28.3-31.1 4.30 1.95
1.10-1.20 31.1-34.0 4.70 2.13
1.20-1.30 34.0-36.8 5.10 2.31
1.30-1.40 36.8-39.6 5.50 2.49
1.40-1.50 39.6-42.5 5.90 2.68
1.50-1.60 42.5-45.3 6.40 2.90
1.60-1.70 45.3-48.1 6.80 3.08
1.70-1.80 48.1-51.0 7.20 3.27
1.80-1.90 51.0-53.8 7.60 3.45
1.90-2.00 53.8-56.6 8.00 3.63
2.00-2.10 56.6-59.5 8.40 3.81
2.10-2.20 59.5-62.3 8.80 3.99
2.20-2.30 62.3-65.1 9.20 4.17
2.30-2.40 65.1-68.0 9.60 4.35
2.40-2.50 68.0-70.8 10.00 4.54
2.50-2.60 70.8-73.6 10.50 4.76
2.60-2.70 73.6-76.5 10.90 4.94
2.70-2.80 76.5-79.3 11.30 5.13
2.80-2.90 79.3-82.1 11.70 5.31
2.90-3.00 82.1-85.0 12.10 5.49
3.00-3.10 85.0-87.8 12.50 5.67
3.10-3.20 87.8-90.6 12.90 5.85
3.20-3.30 90.6-93.4 13.30 6.03
3.30-3.40 93.4-96.3 13.70 6.21
3.40-3.50 96.3-99.1 14.10 6.40
3.50-3.60 99.1-101.9 14.60 6.62
3.60-3.70 101.9-104.8 15.00 6.80
3.70-3.80 104.8-107.6 15.40 6.99
Notes: (1) All test load weights are bone dry weights.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title10-vol3/xml/CFR-2010-title10-vol3-part430.xml

 

[ronhic]

I LOVE YOU!

Ohhh....

Hugs Gabriele...

 

[whirlpolf]

Bollocks: "...you can just spot the back of the drum whe

Euro FL: This (what is described) is a half load to me.
Nice when used on a quick refresh cycle, but plain baloney when it comes to energy saving for real full programmes and complete wash cycles (which is always the better option).
Pack it as you can pack (same colour, same fabric or whatever you have).
Then try to stick a hand on top of the clothes: Can you still twist it? THAT is full, no less.
And it works with old machines (zillions of liters and kilowatts) and with new machines alike (shower type clothes wetting in port hole seal nozzle, energy saver low temp cycle, lesser KW on heaters or any other mechanism).
Thumb rule:
Hand moving? = full. Hand bondaged? = too full /overloaded.
Will do anytime.
Anything less is a housewife's germ phobia having come to life on the electric bill. (May sound harsh, but I do not respect any of this slosh-o-rama for no reason at all).
Joe

 

[ronhic]

Bollocks: "...you can just spot the back of the drum whe

Whirlpolf....

If you had bothered to read the rest of the sentence:

'when washing, you can just spot the back of the drum when the machine pauses to change direction over the top of the wet washing....'

NOTE: the washing is WET....

By 'just spot', that means via the top of the door when it pauses - not through the middle of it...as you know, washing compacts when wet...a full drum of towels (and by that I mean FULL, by your definition) in my Zanussi made Westinghouse. When the machine pauses to reverse, I can JUST see the drum at the back if I look through the top of the door...and that was 8 bath towels and 2 heavy bath mats, not a 'half load' as you imply...

 

[3beltwesty]

The bigger is not always better is true in many cases, that is why a smaller machine can be often better with a smaller load of clothes.

One can notice that larger 27" frame machines often have tops 1000, 1200 or 1400 rpms spins speeds, and smaller 24" machines folks comment about have 1600 and 1800,

The LG 27" 599 buck machine from Home Depot had free delivery. Sears quoted on the 24" 599 buck machine 80 bucks extra; plus 100 because of a steep drive way; another said is was 180 because the day after thanksgiving. To get the delivery cost to be only 80 bucks required me to take off 1/2 day; and wait around for their 4 to 6 hour "delivery window". Since I run a small business;shutting down for 1/2 day has a cost. Having it delivered for nothing the day after Thanksgiving had a zero delivery cost with Home Depot as the seller.

I actual volume; the washers in the USA are mostly larger than other places. The frame is 27 inches versus 24" inches.

If one takes a modern new FL 27" washer in the USA and places just a few items to be washed, the computer seems to sense a paltys load thus does much random motions to insure the sprinkling tries to get to all items. When one stop the washer after 15 minutes some stuff is still dry; and most feels damp and there is about no water to be seen. The whole AlGorithium is that water costs the same as inkjet ink; and your time if wasted does not matter. Thus the machines first displayed time estimate of say 1 hour 15 minutes can stretch to 1.5 to 1.7 hours, since the machine is hell bent in tinkleing instead of wizzing. This can be a problem that the small load causes an abort, or time lengthening.

 

[whirlpolf]

still...

I can imagine the situation you've just described, yet I pack my machines fuller than that and I've never encountered any cleaning problems.
Models involved:
Vorwerk 403 (aka Zanussi)
AEG Lavamat Regina (old style FL)
AEG Lavamat 583
Bosch Logixx
Bauknecht Eco Series
Miele 7oo series Novotronic

All of them had been filled just how I've described it, none of them failed to clean my clothes to what I want, all was spotless. (And all of them would not allow me an inch to the back wall of the drum, even with wet clothes in them (course I DO know that wet clothes collapse), I had a bare half moon only to see through, not larger than half of a palm - visible only on top of the WET clothes being revolved, not even reaching as far as the back wall of the drum).

It DOES work. Just try.

 

[whirlpolf]

added: OK, this could be of course a heater problem

As far as I am informed (correct me if I'm wrong), American washers are gas heater fed.

Maybe this is the reason why.
But why on earth don't manufacturers conceive a likeable and positive way of adding heated fill to internal heater enzyme build-up? It would be a snap and just a major market to go along with!
As to what I have found:
Cold is good for protein based stains (First 10 min)
Warming up slowly will do for etching out all organic stuff (next 10 min) talking about enzymes
Hot is always good for bleaching/color degrading (chlorine of even better: oxygen based products)

Then cool down, double spray rinse and there we go.
I feel a blend of both technologies (transatlantically) would do for best results.

 

[ronhic]

My comments...

...remain valid though.

- The usable capacity difference between Whirlpools 4.0 and 2.3 cu. ft. washers is negligible according to their user manuals
- the 24", 2.3 cu. ft. Whirlpool appears to suit your needs better because it will wash smaller loads without issue compared to larger machines (balancing)
- and it appears your retailers may sell cheap, but delivery is abominable....

On another note, I can get any machine from any retailer in this city delivered for $40 or less regardless of if the machine is on sale or not or if its the day after a public holiday...and that price more often than not applies for Saturday too. From some on-line retailers I can pay as little as $13 for a washer to be delivered from interstate....

Now, whilst we may be the capital city, our population is only 300,000 AND we are a minimum 225 miles from the next major city - Sydney....

There are times, when I really do feel for North Americans....inexpensive appliances on one hand (YAY) and gouged for delivery on the other (Boo)

 

[whirlpolf]

ok, that is completely out of my hands

marketing and delivery issues on continents that I have never put my foot on.
Excuse my ignorance, the things you've just described are far from what I see commondays here.

Coming from what you can get for what price and for which delivery rate, I am out of the game.
Here we usually get an appliance within 24 hrs. no matter what.
Unfortunately we will never get the whirly-blender-type oversea's weirdo mechanisms at all (and I envy you guys for that, I love them!).

A major dream to come true would be a Calypso or a Cabrio, but the shortcomings of a serious service answer of Whirlpool and Maytag alike make it impossible for me (they could never tell whether a 60Hz machine could run on a transformer using 50Hz). But I am drifting off....

 

[ronhic]

Whirlpolf....

We are basically saying the same thing....

Fully loaded, and wet, there will be some room that is visible when the machine pauses - not much, but some....

 

[srswirl]

Interesting...

8 bath towels? Wow! My average towel load consists of between 14 and 18 bath towels (heavy bath towels), 4 hand towels, and 10 wash cloths. Last week my colors load consisted of 17 heavy cotton tee shirts (I've loaded as many as 22), nine heavy cotton shorts, 10 socks, and a couple of miscellaneous items. I have a Bosch 700 machine. I just think most Americans tend to underload as compared to how Europeans use their washers. You certainly can get far more into the larger drums if you want to. Perhaps manufacturers don't advise this...but I always load my machine to capacity...and I know I can get FAR more in it than in a European Miele...because I have tried out the smaller machines with my loads. I can PACK things into a small machine...and it will generally only hold about 1/2 to 2/3 of what I normally put into my Bosch every time I wash a load. Everything always comes out spotless and well rinsed...and I never use fabric softner. If I PACKED things into the Bosch, I could get quite a bit more than I would normally put in there...but I like the clothes to at least have some room to move and tumble. When I see machines packed so full they are just going around in a static circle...well...the clothes in the center are not getting cleaned no matter what people think.

I do agree that the larger machines do not handle a small load nearly as well as the European machines. I have to be careful if I wash too little in the Bosch. It might not spin at all. That, to me, is the drawback of the larger drums.

 

[3beltwesty]

The Old Westinghouse FL washer from 1976 has a 22 inch diameter basket and it is about 11 to 12 inches long.

The 2010 LG here has the same diameter basket 22 inch but it is about about 17 long.

Both are in a 27" wide washer frame.

The old FL washer has thus about a 2.4 to 2.6 cubic foot basket

The new LG thus has a 3.7 cubic foot basket, BUT IS MARKETED a 4.2 model with the IEC spec.

Here is something mentioned on the link below:

"Let me show you two washing machines with identical tubs so it makes a little more sense. The Whirlpool 38762 rates 4.0 I.E.C. cu. ft. The Whirlpool 38612 rates 3.5 conventional cu. ft. These washers have exactly the same tub, but because the first one is Energy Star-qualified, the I.E.C. measuring system is used. That means it comes out with a higher cubic foot reading than the second machine."

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