US Electric code question

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maytagbear

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Linn needs a new dryer and a new stove, both are electric. She does not have gas service, and to get the gas line in would be well over a thousand, which she could spend elsewhere.

Her current dryer and stove have the three leads, does she have to change to the four lead?

She's seriously leaning toward buying new, and thinking either Whirlpool or Hotpoint/GE.

We looked at an independent store (I knew more than the sales guy, and I don't think he was happy about that) and a well-regarded used appliance store.

He said that Fisher and Paykel were Australian, whereas they're New Zealand! He also tried to sell auto dry instead of sensor dry......

But, does Linn need an electrician? She's not going to be happy about that. Don't ask me. I change lightbulbs and flip breaker switches, and that's the extent of it. I am NOT dear Toggle!

(I'm a better cook (and kisser) than I am an electrician.)

Lawrence/Maytagbear
 
Either way is fine; three or four leads.If someone can replace the recptacles with a the four-prong type which separates the groung from the neutral this is, in theory, somewhat better/ safer.

If your wiring is metal-sheathed (BX); grounding is automatic, by wirtue of the continuous/contiguous metal casings.

If your wiring is plastic-sheathed; (romex) there needs to be a bare ground conductor in the junction box (receptacle box) to be able to go to a four-prong/lead/conductor flexible connection cord.

My unsolicited advice: Have a reasonably qualified person change the receptacles and order the matching flex connectors with 4 conductors for th eappliances. Or IF finances allow, it may pay to have an electrician do this. DONT OVERPAY~~ THIS IS A 15 min procedure tops for each outlet (assuming the ground is there). DONT LET THEM TEKLL YOU IT IS A MAJOR JOB AND MUST BE DONE. I bleive th elaw allows the continued use of an existing three-pronged receptacle.

Since the three-prong variety worked safely for decacdes, no one will fry if it were to remain.

Clear as mud? GOOD LUCK.
 
He also tried to sell auto dry instead of sensor dry......

I'm ALL for low-tech and no electronics. Besides, auto-dry actually deli a DRY load of clothes.

Other than Mayrag, (I mean Maytag)which actually works I have always HATED sensor dry.
 
Thanks, that helps, but another question-

(Yes, the title should have been "Electrical" code instead of "Electric" code. I blame it on the Vicodin.)

But are new appliances able to use three conductors, without leaving the fourth conductor exposed and hot?

A puzzled-

L/Mb
 
Yes.

Stoves and dryers do not come with a cord/flex.
Conneciotn end with a terminal-block.

The appliance may be *hard-wired in*, where the home's power cable goes right in for a *permanent* connection

OR a three or four conductor flex cord is attached.

For the three conductor cable there is (on the appliance) a grouding piece of metal that is connected with the neutral conductor to effectively ground the frame of the machine. (The ground and the neutral share a conductor).

With a four conductor cord/flex the terminal block at the rear of the appliance has a slot for each each- the two hots, the ground and the neutral.

BOTTOM LINE: When ordering, the appliance you must specify a tree or four conductor flex-cord. THEY WILL ASK YOU WHAT THE OUTLET LOOKS LIKE. In most places the installer will connect the cord to the machine free-of-charge.

Once connected to the proper type of cord, the existing outlet will be fabulous. There is no NEED to change it (the outlet) except the desire to be "more modern".
 
I agree with Goatfarmer

Stick with the 3 pole circuits. There is no reason or advantage to converting unless, as previously pointed out, you're doing a remodel and permitting, inspection and local code compliance is unavoidable.

The NEC (national electrical code) is the standard, with some localities implementing their own additional rules to address special local conditions.

Additionally, BX or Flexible Metallic Conduit is not/no longer permitted for use as a ground. Per NEC Article 350, you can only use the shell of Flex/BX for up to 6' as a ground (with approved connectors) and with no more than 20A fuses for 1/2 & 3/4" sizes, if I recall correctly.

The reason for this rule is due to the flex/bx helical construction. Over time corrosion takes place, oxides form and mechanical stress can separate the helical ribbon. When this happens it can form a much longer effective path to ground resulting in substantially increased and resistance (and inductance) and in potentially dangerous heating. Apparently many fires have resulted from large ground currents being conducted through the spiral outer jacket making it act, in effect, as large coiled heater element.

All modern BX carries a separate grounding conductor. You must install one if you use flex. EMT and ridged (metal) conduit can be used for grounding, although some now are running grounds inside in an effort to further reduce RFI/EMI/transmitted electrical noise or where required by code.
 
ah.... this may explain why NYC now FOR THE FIRST TIME allows Romex, (non-metalic plastic-sheatehed cable) within its borders.

The whole attraction of BX IMHO was the automatic grounding and the resistance to animal bites. If a separate ground conductor is required to be tied through, then BX becomes a huge PITA to work with, and i cna see why electricians woul prefer/demand Romex.
 
Actually there is a very thin and flimsy aluminum bare conductor in a BX cable that is ostensibly for groundng.

Would this satisfy the demands of the code?

Instead of being joined to others as would the bare copper in a Romex style cable, it is usually wrapped around the outer metal sheath with reliance on the *automatic* groundng feature that metal junction and outlet/switch boxes affords.
 
Stick with the 3 pole circuits.

OMG this is going to sound dirty, but I swear it is not intended to.

I think you mean three holes (in the receptacle).
My understanding of a *pole* is that is is a hot leg.
So there would be (as is currently exisitng) 2 pole-holes and a neutral hole in the receptacle.

*WHEW* I need a cigarette; and I don't smoke.
 
Re. that "flimsy wire" in there: I wouldn't use it. Sounds like it would be too small to safely conduct current to ground w/o heating up and possibly starting a fire.

Well, at least you could light your cigarette on it...!
 
OMG, you said

Seriously now,

Toggle, OK, I stand corrected. I meant to say 3 conductor circuit. You are correct in that poles are generally considered high (whereas nodes are low). A typical 3 pole circuit would be a 3 phase circuit.

As for that flimsy wire in the BX, it is intended to be redundant and remember that it is contained inside the armor and the circuit is supposed to be current limited--fused to 20A max. (Although it will conduct a lot more than that for a short period of time.)

As for permitting Romex in NYC, that must of been a good lobbying effort but it is probably a flawed idea: 1) Certain rodents/critters will try to eat it; and, 2) It doesn't offer much mechanical protection if someone tries to drive a nail through it, etc.. Look for more buildings to start burning down...

Of the two, I rather have mechanical protection of the BX. If you're concerned about excessive ground current, you can install a GFI, which will pretty much eliminate that risk. If you want the best of both worlds, you can always run flex, available in aluminum or steel sheath, and pull in whatever conductors you want.
 
On Critters eating plastic sheathed wire

In Australia, all wiring has been Romex since the rubber and fabric wrapped stuff was replaced with PVC.

Its only in a industrial situations or situations where it is difficult to secure the cable that wiring is in conduit and then 9 out of 10 times its installed in PVC pipe.

Most wiring is just installed through the walls/roof/crawl space and most people never have a problem. The cable is just stapled to the studs/bearers. No metal junction boxes, no outlet boxes behind the faceplate. There are 3 integral wires, Brown, Blue and Green (Active 240, Neutral 240 and Earth) Whenever you cut it, you just join it, either at an outlet or with a plastic cased junction box.

Its unusual to have wiring chewed through by animal here, it just doesnt seem to happen.

The US system seems overly complicated. This may be because of the requirement to deal with the hightemps associated with the generally higher amperage circuits though?
 
The US system seems overly complicated.

....it's all what you get used to methinks.

The country is so big and we are set-up such that FEDERAL (national) rules are superceeded by (stricter) STATE and LOCAL RULES in certain cases...and also with electricity. Large cities like New York, Chicago and Los Angeles have especilly stringent rules in that the highter density of population makes one especially leery of fires and accidents. Death tolls would be remarkably higher than a more rural enviroment.

May I request a pic of *No metal junction boxes, no outlet boxes behind the faceplate*.

TYVM. All input is greatly appreciated and I thank all for tolerating my logorhhea.
 
Product List

Hi Steve,

The attached link shows all the products which one arm of the company I work for manufactures and sells.

Note we sell the stuff on either end of the cable, not the cable or pvc conduit in the middle.

The PDF's show the Metering enclosures, cablemanagement etc.

The GPO's are included in the HagerBlu information.
Tebis is what we call our home automation product.

This should give you a pretty good idea of the products used in AU.

There is a download section for installation videos, however you'll need to register to get access to this.

Nathan

http://www.hagerbr.com.au/index.php?scr=800&id=14
 

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