War on appliances

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mark_wpduet

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Proposed new rules...

What really rubs me the wrong way is the fact that if they GENUINELY CARED about the environment, they would crack down on planned obsolescence too...You can't crack down on how they operate while completely ignoring planned obsolescence... defeating the entire purpose. I mean, the entire goal is to save the environment, right? How can you have one and not the other? You need both to truly work...Otherwise all of the extra production/resources, energy saved is completely wasted building more and more and people buying more and more... Makes ZERO sense... ZERO!!!

https://news3lv.com/news/nation-wor...gas-stove-president-joe-department-energy-doe
 
There’s been a war on appliances for quite some time, people are now real how realizing how moronic government regulations are. Dishwashers are already efficient enough, we will soon be back to the days where we’ll have to wash dishes by hand which uses more water than using a dishwasher. Solving one problem but creating more is an absolute BRILLIANT way to fix the world’s problems.
 
War on appliances ?????

Energy regulation, sure seem to be working even though the population is increasing the US is using less electricity year after year.

There is no evidence that planned obsolescence, etc. has increased appliance build quality is better than it’s ever been. New appliances almost never have any problems when we install them out of the box and they always work.

New appliances only take a fraction of the materials and energy to build as older ones did so even if the life is far shorter. They still are saving energy.

John.
 
Be careful what you wish for...

This site has been beating the drums for a decade now. While gaslighting all the short comings. It was only a matter of time.

 

 

I hope an underground market opens up. Technically Amazon/ebay isn't liable for what it sells, you can buy just about anything illegal (like double end cords) no questions asked. People know, the sellers know and the concept is booming in revenue.

 

 

I'd gladly buy some brand new water guzzling appliances listed as "novelty" items. US made, in stock, and with a long warranty. 

 

 

 

chetlaham-2023051011310307385_1.jpg
 
 

 

This is your government, you have a voice and can use it to make your position (+ or -) known instantly.  There is a public meeting (you can tune in online) next week about the proposed new standards for washing machines.  In the public comment section you can submit and read letters, comments and questions from Industry and the public.  It's fascinating to see what technical questions the industry are asking, though many of these are clarification of terms and the like.  

 

While these are only proposed standards from the WH to the DOE, the scope and timelines can change dramatically as the process moves forward.  The final approval for standards is still some time away.

 

Youtube wouldn't be full of videos of top-loading washers full-to-the-brim of swirling water if there wasn't a way to easily bypass or defeat the stingy "Normal/Eco" cycles.  I had an LG top-load washer for a while and it was easy to trick the machine into using a full tub of water if I dumped a couple of quarts of water on the load before starting the machine.  Many washers offer options to change the parameters of how the machine performs outside the pre-selected settings assigned to the cycles in the controls.  Most dishwashers can be programmed for heavy-duty, power-scrub, etc. cycles that often add pre-washes and/or extra rinses, extra water heating beyond the default settings.  

 

Longevity of appliance useful life hasn't really changed all that much in all the years Consumer Reports has been surveying their subscribers and their advice for repair/replace decisions is similar to what it was in the 50's.  If you got 10 years of service from an automatic washer back then, you were above the average lifespan.  I know, all of our grandmothers had (insert brand) washer for 20+ years, completely trouble-free, but that is an extreme in the overall statistical modeling. 

 

 

 

https://www.energy.gov/eere/buildings/public-meetings-and-comment-deadlines
 
I dunno. I agree on one hand because I don't know how much more we can squeeze usage regulations down. From a mechanical and chemical aspect, machines and detergent engineering/formulation has come a LONG way, soil, water, and fabrics have not and most likely never will, until god forbid they invent some kind of fabric that just never gets dirty or stinky, in which case all the fun of appliances and how they work will be extinct. But that's all to say that there's only so far physics can allow for these reductions in energy and water use.

On the other hand, I used to be one of the fools who bawlked at "HE" appliances, both washers and dishwashers, and now I'll proudly admit how wrong I was because I've now owned several of each, and not a one of them was a dud. I've owned four Whirlpool GlobalWash dishwashers, the well-known WP WDT920 that excelled at the scorched foods and peanut butter tests on a thread that still makes the rounds here and there, along with a KitchenAid 104, WP 520 and 710, all essentially same design and all were fantastic in performance and build quality, the 920 and KA obviously being the top contenders on both counts.

I've also owned a BravOasis washer that I still consider the best HE top-load design to date along with it's cousin Fisher & Paykel SmartDrive, and in fact I just recently fully rebuilt an exact MVWB880 identical to the one I owned and it's running beautifully in my laundry room now. I've also had a Whirlpool Duet-Alpha WFW92 front loader for over 5.5 years that has not a single time left a load less than crisp and clean, well rinsed and spun dry, along with being impeccably smooth and quiet, and built like a damn tank. There's not a thing about it that feels chintzy or flimsy, inside or out, and upon doing a disassembly and deep clean at almost the 5 year mark, didn't find even the slightest sign of buildup or mold anywhere throughout. My only detracting mark is that front loaders just don't have the character and fun of a top loader because of being so sealed up during operation, which is why I'm enjoying the Bravos for the time being.

Then brings me to the current dishwasher, the KitchenAid KDTM604, going two years now without a single hiccup and spotless dishes every time. The build quality of this thing is beautiful, especially when you're able to compare it to the sea of Samsungs, LGs, GEs and Frigidaires on the sales floor. The door is smooth and solid, the way the latch pulls itself shut has almost a MacBook like feel and thunk every time you close the door, all three racks are solid, and then underneath, everything looks and feels very nice and rigid. I was wary about the change to the poly-composite framing but in person it's very stable, and with it side mounted into the cavity, it doesn't have the slightest wiggle. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, Whirlpool actually has a repair video on their "academy" page on how to repair the spinning filter pump and motor, so it's not just a disposable all in one unit. To me, this machine is very reminiscent of the Voyager design, but very much improved and refined.

Along with the build quality, we also recently got a Kohler H2Wise+ water meter for our home, which will learn over time which fixtures are which, and allows you to manually identify and "teach" what is using water, so during this first several months having it, I've made sure to only run the washer or dishwashers when it was least likely any other water was needed, so that I could isolate and see exactly how much water is being used. The other night I ran a full load that was fairly average soil, not really much dried on, just the residues of some sauces and drippings, drink and coffee cups, etc. Normal cycle, no options. It started straight into the main wash, then what I call an "eco-rinse" where it fills partially and then pulses the pump several times throughout all four wash levels, essentially covering the whole load at least once, then the final rinse. The entire cycle was 1.7 gallons, meaning this new design is actually more water efficient than the previous GlobalWash than I realized. The results? Spotless, not a speck to be found, no leftover scents of food or anything at all, and the interior sparkling.

So I do agree in some ways with what a few are saying, but I also see this article as just another over-sensationalized clickbait to get people fuming. While I DO think build quality has tanked for alot of the budget offerings (looking at you GE with your paper thin dishwasher doors), there are also still alot of very well built and designed appliances on the market that are more than surpassing even the new regulations being proposed. I've long learned my lesson about dismissing things just because they're "new" without first experiencing them for myself, and while things have changed a good deal just in the last 20 years, I don't think there's yet any alarm to think that all the competing brands are going to intentionally design washers or dishwashers that won't clean.
 
All this talk about conserving water is good however...

<span style="text-decoration: underline;">The largest users of water are vegetation such lawns and agriculture. </span>
<span style="text-decoration: underline;">That's upwards of where 70% of our fresh water goes. </span>

And much of that water is lost after it's sprayed out
whereas most water flushed down our sanitary drains returns via a sewerage system and is recycled and can be re-used.

I think a lot of this energy saving stuff is rather foolish at this point. We've already eliminated the GE filter-flo type water hog washers, the 10-12 gallon per load dishwashers, the 4+ gallon per flush toilets, and the faucets that can drain a lake with a few hand washings.

What's being done with regard to agricultures tremendous water usage and WHY oh WHY is the LA river draining to the ocean?
 
Also #2

"Bitchenaid"    LOL  
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How will it affect Speed Queen?

It will probably spell the end of top loading washers. Given the severe restrictions and garbage build quality on them now, it might not be such a bad idea to nuke them at this point.

 

Build quality on refrigerators had got to be at its lowest point in history, I'd hate to see what's in store for them next.

 

I'm curious what areas on dryers they are targeting for increased efficiency. 
 
 
Refrigerators ... I ran across a discussion thread on a servicer board about a recent WP model on which the defrost element apparently is sourced only as part-parcel with the evaporator coil so replacing a failed defrost heater becomes a sealed-system job, which likely effectively trashes the whole thing on point of repair cost.  The defrost thermostat (thermistor), and probably any other thermistors in the system, are also not sourced separately, requires the entire wiring harness ... reason is conjectured as related to the flammable (butane?) refrigerant involved (no wiring connectors or splicing into the harness that could cause a loose connection).
 
Reply #17

Probably might try putting lower wattage elements in dryers along with putting a 20,000 or 18,000 btu burner orifice in. Thankfully the Maytag HOH dryers already meet these guidelines, especially the ones with the electronic dry control, 4800 watts, too.
 
<blockquote>
Probably might try putting lower wattage elements in dryers along with putting a 20,000 or 18,000 btu burner orifice in. Thankfully the Maytag HOH dryers already meet these guidelines, especially the ones with the electronic dry control, 4800 watts, too.

 

 

</blockquote>
Why though? Americans and Canadians are some of the only people in the world who have the privilege or drying 3.5 cu feet of laundry in under an hour. Why take it away?
 
Restrictions

The one thing here that has not been taken into consideration is that the 3.3 gallons and under is for the Normal cycle with no soil. As long as the soil sensor is able to detect anything, the machine should add another fill for prewash, rinses, etc. As DADoES said, the main wash and two rinses should still be close to 3 gallons. My biggest issue is with the energy consumption. The Normal cycles do not heat nearly high enough, and many new machines are lowering the final rinse temperature to keep the consumption levels low. Alternative cycles like Auto/Sensor usually combat this issue.
I was pissed with the restrictions of 60 gallon hot water heaters at first, however, in use, it wasn't an issue for our family of three considering we had all water efficient machines. Some of the changes are fine, but some are poorly executed. I think that is why there is a lot of resistance.
As someone else mentioned, the dryers are next. I would not be shocked if they start pushing heat pump dryers and lower output heating elements. Though, there was a study that tested the energy consumption of dryer heat settings. The energy consumption between high and low was negligible.
 
Disposable

I am more knowledgeable about electronics than appliances, but disposable means these things wind up in the landfill quicker. You won't convince me it doesn't take more time, energy, and resources to repurpose the parts including the large metal panels IF they are even salvaged. 5 to 10 years vs. 20 to 30? I live in a rural area. I am not joking when I say these new washers are one of the most COMMON yard ornament I see. They don't even make attractive plant holders!

Instead of having individual parts to replace, many new electronics require whole parts to be replaced because they are glued, soldered, etc. or have a poor design where one malfunction damages nearby parts. Combine that with the cost to get someone out here to fix it, and you might as well trash it and move on. Appliances, printers, laptops, phones, etc. It adds up!

The HE appliances use more water, electricity, chemicals, and time to accomplish the same thing the older appliances did. Loads are washed twice (more water, more electricity), chemicals added because hot water is limited, etc. They may work out of the box, but it won't be for long...That's a quality control issue that probably wasn't as well addressed back then.

When you look at the WHOLE picture and not only a piece of a puzzle, we are harming our environment.

I am not against making modifications that can conserve water, electricity, etc. as long as the performance of product is not adversely affected. Some parts like drives, memory, battery on electronics, etc. should be easily replaceable and cost effective BY the consumer. Drain pumps, heating elements, and stuff like that on appliances should be easily replaceable and cost effective to encourage consumer to go that route.

I see now they are trying to make dishwashers go from using 5 gallons to 3 gallons? Really? Seriously? People will either run the load twice or start hand washing. It's gone too far. It is one of the reasons I have repaired rather than replaced my now older dishwasher. The first one I had was replaced. I didn't realize the reason it wasn't working was because phosphates had been taken out of detergents. Then I got the "new" one (the one I have now) about ten years ago, and it wasn't much better. I don't know how much water I wasted "washing" the stuff before it even went in the dishwasher. Then I found Cascade Fryer Boil Out. Completely changed everything. It's not really available anymore at a reasonable price where I just need to scrape and rinse, but I do find the Finish tabs work pretty well so time has improved in-store detergents now available. I plan to buy a dishwasher before the new ones start rolling out even if my old one is still chugging along on its last life.

I believe the real savings will be in people being more mindful of how they use the resources they have. I use a spin dryer, which greatly reduces the dry time and can be dried at a lower temp. Run enough water for a bath instead of a full tub, turn water on/off as needed for brushing teeth, showers, etc. Use cooler temperatures to wash lightly soiled clothing, spray rinses instead of full rinses for small lightly soiled loads, limiting the use of vehicle (combine errands when possible), etc. Choose and use more fuel-efficient vehicles for every day use when possible.
 
forced to hand wash dishes

I'd hate to be forced to hand wash dishes, which I ABSOLUTELY hate. That is why I have a dishwasher. The Kenmore that I have in my apartment will be in use by me, and will do the job correctly. It is built by Bosch. I can tell because of the detergent and rinse aid dispensers.
 
Reply # 7

From what I can find electricity usage has leveled off in the past few years, but not down year by year as claimed. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/use-of-electricity.php

Given that usage has at least leveled off, how much of that is in fact due to more energy efficient appliances? How much is due to other factors? How does electricity usage correlate to things like quality of life factors? For instance the home ownership rate reached a high in 2004 and has gone down since then. https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/homeownership-rate-by-year

So maybe people not being unable to afford things they used to may be a factor? Like maybe less durable more expensive junk? Probably a lot of that is due to regulations. So yes, regulations may be working by making people poorer. Homeless people probably don't use a whole lot of electricity, for instance.

To me, whether I can depend on an appliance, or have to constantly have them repaired or buy new ones, is a quality of life issue. Cheap products tend not to be cost effective. I don't believe it's reasonable to think that appliances that have to be constantly repaired or replaced three times as often save energy and resources.

I also notice that while John seems to think flimsy appliances are fine for others, he buys Speed Queen front loaders for himself and brags about their durability. (https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?93107_77 Reply 21). It may be the repair technician in him speaking, just like on the Appliance Repair Blog / Parts Pros or whatever, when asked who makes the most durable appliances they'll reply "Whirlpool" and never mention Speed Queen because Whirlpool is where they make their money. I'm not sure which I'm more impressed with; John's Speed Queen lasting well over a century, or that he was around to buy it 118 years ago.
 
Repaly 23- Electronics

Electronics by default determine how long a machine will last without repair:

 

 

https://www.xppower.com/resources/blog/electrolytic-capacitor-lifetime-in-power-supplies
 

 

Meaning if a circuit board is present, no large group of machines will be able to survive 30+ years. I challenge anyone to discover all the bloated or leaking capacitors within junked appliances.

 

Energy efficiency at least in part put electronics in machines due to the immense amount of logic and control required to achieve reasonable results with less water and energy.
 
Reply #23

That’s what most people don’t understand, they may think they are making a difference but in reality it’s little to no difference at all. If we simply built things to last instead of being thrown away along with using clean sources of power such nuclear, wild, solar, we’d eliminate almost all pollution but everyone simply falls for the bogus nonsense that Big News and politicians put out there.
 
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