Warm Water Washing Is the New

[Chetlaham]

So after switching to Tide Professional powdered detergent and installing a 50/50 358277 mixing valve which provides about 105*F warm water I noticed that clothes actually come out cleaner when using Tide Professional with warm water instead of hot water. Tide Professional is the best detergent I have used. It cleans better than most other detergents even if those other detergents are used with hot, warm or 30/70 warm water. Tide Professional out cleans other detergents in hot water but those cleaning results actually improve when Tide Professional is used in warm water.

I've also found that Tide Professional works well with warm soaks at removing set in stains and food stains. I put about double the normal dose, fill and agitate for 5 minutes, pause for 30-60 minutes then continue the cycle with 10-14 minutes of agitation. Tomato, orange juice, curries, blood, grease, ect all gone. Wow-able results.

I've also noticed that most of the towels and sturdy fabrics I buy today ask for washing in warm water and define it as being 100*F. Previously it was commonly recommended that towels and white cottons be washed in hot water.

I think all standard use detergents should be formulated like Tide Professional and I think all washers should try and reach for 100*F water when set for warm. This would save a lot of energy while providing sparkly, clean, fresh results.

 

[launderess]

Well it would, wouldn't it?

Tide "professional" like many TOL powder laundry detergents from Europe such as Miele Ultra-White, Persil (Unilever and Henkel versions) and others are optimized to work at lower (warm) water temperatures. This in keeping with trend if not energy use mandates from governments to turn down the dial.

Decent to heavy dose of oxygen bleach and activators along with enzymes means products can deliver not only boil wash results at just 140 F but now down to 104 degrees F. Couple this with longer wash cycle times and you can see where things are going.

Outside of healthcare or perhaps issues of hygiene on grossly soiled or whatever domestic laundry there really isn't that much of a need to wash at elevated temps nowadays. Use of a good top shelf powder detergent and warm water should get you there.

 

[qsd-dan]

I'm curious what temperature(s) the enzymes in this formula can withstand on the hot side without killing them off. It's probably impossible to find without talking to the engineers who developed it.

 

[Chetlaham]

I'm curious what temperature(s) the enzymes in this formula can withstand on the hot side without killing them off. It's probably impossible to find without talking to the engineers who developed it.

Same here. It is just a hypothesis but after seeing better results with warm water I think those enzymes in Tide Professional are dying off with 140*F hot water.

 

[Chetlaham]

Well it would, wouldn't it?

Tide "professional" like many TOL powder laundry detergents from Europe such as Miele Ultra-White, Persil (Unilever and Henkel versions) and others are optimized to work at lower (warm) water temperatures. This in keeping with trend if not energy use mandates from governments to turn down the dial.

Decent to heavy dose of oxygen bleach and activators along with enzymes means products can deliver not only boil wash results at just 140 F but now down to 104 degrees F. Couple this with longer wash cycle times and you can see where things are going.

Outside of healthcare or perhaps issues of hygiene on grossly soiled or whatever domestic laundry there really isn't that much of a need to wash at elevated temps nowadays. Use of a good top shelf powder detergent and warm water should get you there.

By any chance do you know what longer cycle times are ideal? I have thought about incorporating more soaks into my laundry routine to let enzymes work best.

 

[me]

The oxygen bleach per(oxy)acetic acid produced by the powder will break down the enzymes, although I don't know how long it will take before they are completely inactivated.

The hot and cold fill washing machines we've had before would turn on the cold water valve to part fill the machine, before turning on the hot to wash the detergent down into the tub, so the water would initially probably be somewhere around 30°C or so, which would give the enzymes time to work while the element is heating it to the correct temperature for the selected programme. Modern UK machines of course are cold fill only, so the enzymes have more time before the water gets hot enough for the oxygen bleach to take over (and saves the cost of the hot pipe and solenoid valve).

My mum's 1980's machine had a "bio" button which modified the pre wash and main wash. According to the programme flowchart in the service manual, a standard pre-wash would be cold fill no heat 4' 22" normal action; whereas a bio pre wash 5' 5" then heat to 30°C then about 26 minutes gentle action. A bio main wash would add 9' 5" gentle action to the cotton programmes after filling with a mixture of hot and cold water, before turning the element on. https://automaticwasher.org/threads...ronic-x2000-service-manual.33256/#post-500625

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

eh, new what?

there are things that i have washed in warm since i could stand up to the washer on my own two feet...

so most laundry does get washed in warm as it always had... my own clothing gets washed in cold... white wash cloths and towels, i use hot...

 

[me]

eh, new what?

there are things that i have washed in warm since i could stand up to the washer on my own two feet...

so most laundry does get washed in warm as it always had... my own clothing gets washed in cold... white wash cloths and towels, i use hot..

I do most my washing on 40°C programmes with powder detergent to save electricity and sometimes use the 50°C cycle if something got a difficult stain on it like dirty bike chain oil. I also occasionally use hotter washes for cotton towels etc. I used to wash most stuff at 50°C or above.

The powder I currently use has got sodium percarbonate in it but no TAED so really needs at least 40°C for that to be moderately effective. The only detergent powder I can find in the shops these days that still contains TAED is Persil, which I used for years, but is quite a bit more expensive. I use liquid detergent only for delicates, wool, silk etc, which would be weakened by the oxygen bleach in the powder.

 

[Alan]

I'm like @daveamkrayoguy. Clothes in cool/cold water and the sheets and towels in hot water.

 

[mrboilwash]

Oh those care tags!
As a fun fact note the cold water instructions under the 60°C instructions. Different instructions for different cultures?

Find it very interesting to read about an example of what a Bio button did in the 1980`s, whereas most 1970`s washers I know of did a hot 60°C Bio-pre wash instead of the regular 30° or 40° prewash and did not alter the mainwash at all. That was quite a change in just a few years.

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

Oh those care tags!
As a fun fact note the cold water instructions under the 60°C instructions. Different instructions for different cultures?

Find it very interesting to read about an example of what a Bio button did in the 1980`s, whereas most 1970`s washers I know of did a hot 60°C Bio-pre wash instead of the regular 30° or 40° prewash and did not alter the mainwash at all. That was quite a change in just a few years.



View attachment 320537

Yes, the graphics are a bit confusing, but it's hard to print instructions in every kind of language...

I remember seeing a lot of gags about washing instructions, as well... So it really gets me what those garment manufacturers are often trying to say...

 

[me]

Oh those care tags!
As a fun fact note the cold water instructions under the 60°C instructions. Different instructions for different cultures?

Find it very interesting to read about an example of what a Bio button did in the 1980`s, whereas most 1970`s washers I know of did a hot 60°C Bio-pre wash instead of the regular 30° or 40° prewash and did not alter the mainwash at all. That was quite a change in just a few years.

Well I think it says 30°C, it might be 50C, it's difficult to read on that scan. I used to have that manual, not sure if it came with the machine or the replacement processor card, although that was a later processor.

Perhaps the introduction of TAED in washing powder was a factor, since the peracetic acid it produces would start destroying the enzymes at lower temperature than standard oxygen bleach.

"Tetraacetylethylenediamine (TAED) was first used in a commercial washing powder in 1978. It was introduced by Unilever in the detergent brand Skip (marketed as TETRAED B)."

Edit: just realised, the service manual must have come with the replacement processor, because it had a list of later hardware revisions, and for subsequent models. And that temperature must be 30C, because it would do the same bio prewash for the 40°C wash, so 50C would be too hot.

 

[me]

Yes, the graphics are a bit confusing, but it's hard to print instructions in every kind of language...

I remember seeing a lot of gags about washing instructions, as well... So it really gets me what those garment manufacturers are often trying to say...

Care labels are easy to understand: 60°C wash cotton cycle (normal agitation), do not bleach, tumble dry on the minimum setting, do not iron, can be dry cleaned with whatever dry clean chemical starts with a P.

The 1980s care labels also had a wash cycle number separated by a wavy water line above the temperature in the tub, which corresponded to the programme number to select on the washing machines.

Nowadays, they often sew a label indicating a 30°C wash regardless, apparently to encourage lower temperature washing, rather than stating the maximum temperature it is safe to wash at, so I tend to ignore it and go by the fibre content.


... I wonder if the cold wash instructions are for the polyester filling

 

[Chetlaham]

I'm with you. I treat the temperature indicated is the maximum at which the fabric is safe to wash vs what is optimal to get the fabric clean.

Personally, I think Kenmore had the most brilliant approach. They set ATC warm wash at 100*F and ATC warm rinse at 75*F.

Personally, I would have done 105*F wash and 70*F rinse. I think this would have provided the best, most optimal results while saving the maximum amount of energy.

 

[qsd-dan]

I'm with you. I treat the temperature indicated is the maximum at which the fabric is safe to wash vs what is optimal to get the fabric clean.

Personally, I think Kenmore had the most brilliant approach. They set ATC warm wash at 100*F and ATC warm rinse at 75*F.

Personally, I would have done 105*F wash and 70*F rinse. I think this would have provided the best, most optimal results while saving the maximum amount of energy.

75F and 100F are the absolute bare minimum temperatures for those categories. 85-90F for cold and 120F for warm are the upper limits. I'm currently running 87-90F for cold, 120F for warm, and 160F for hot using a tempering valve. That tempering valve is my favorite everyday laundering device, next to the water softener.

 

[Chetlaham]

75F and 100F are the absolute bare minimum temperatures for those categories. 85-90F for cold and 120F for warm are the upper limits. I'm currently running 87-90F for cold, 120F for warm, and 160F for hot using a tempering valve. That tempering valve is my favorite everyday laundering device, next to the water softener.

I remember you telling me about the tempering valve. Personally, (and this is only due to personal preference, not saying you are wrong or that I am right) I like having the water heater set at 142*F. I find 140*F in the tub is the minimum hot temperature which gives the best wash results for the energy used.

105-110*F is the optimal warm for me and 60*F is the optimal cold. Though in the winter I get cold temps below 60*F so technically this is where I need ATC or a tempering valve.

Have you ever tried Tide Professional? I feel this is where you can turn down the temps and still get great results.

 

[launderess]

"When dirt says hot, but label says not... Ariel gets it clean"



In 1978 Unilever introduced Skip, the first laundry detergent in Europe to contain new oxygen bleach activator TAED.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skip_(detergent)#History

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraacetylethylenediamine#Use_and_mechanism_of_action

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bleach_activator

https://patents.google.com/patent/US6528470B1/en

Few things were happening about same time in Europe upending settled laundry day practices.

Energy crisis of 1970's caused consumers to become more conscious of household energy use. This coincided with governments pushing same (famous "turn down the dial" ad campaign in UK).

Since introduction of Persil soap powder and later detergents containing oxygen bleach (usually sodium perborate) boil washes or at least wash water at elevated temps was the rule for white/colourfast things. While desire to save energy threw a spanner into those works, there other bits.

Rise of vivid colours in all sorts of garments and other textiles such as bed and bath linen that couldn't withstand repeated boil washes. This and or incorporation of man made fibers (ditto) which also prompted a need for lower than boil wash temps.

You also had introduction (not without some controversy) of enzymes (Subtilisin) that then worked best at lower wash temps.

From late 1970's into 1980's and beyond all top makers of European laundry powders (Henkel, Unilever, various private label companies) all were flogging at least one powder detergent with activated oxygen bleaching system, with or without enzymes.

Housewives across Europe weren't having any of it, washing had to come out just as clean or better at lower temps or else. Happily for likes of Unilever, Henkel and others "new" versions of Persil, Skip, Ariel and other TOL powders did just what they said would so and more. It says much about continuous improvements to such detergents that average wash temperature in Germany, long the land of boil washing is now down to about 104 degrees F.









https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unASxHTS7vY

 

[DADoES]

I don't wash anything in less than 90°F to 95°F for "cold" and that's only for items that really need it.

105°F to 116°F for warm.

F&P IWL12 ATC is default 116°F for Warm. ATC on it is adjustable in °C on a range of: -6, -4, -2, 0, +2, +4, +6. All the ATC temps (Cold, Warm/Cold, Warm, Warm/Hot) are affected equally, they can't be adjusted individually.

 

[DADoES]

Crazy, despicable electronics ... limiting all the temps to seven discrete adjustments!

 

[launderess]

IIRC on both sides of the pond enzyme products first appeared as pre-soak or booster products.

In USA where top loading washers with central beaters (and comparatively short cycles) soaking before washing (as had been done in days of wringer or other semi-automatic if not manual washing) had benefits.

However, in Europe where h-axis washing machines (with their long cycles) dominated things were bit different. There top issue was self-heating washers that could take tap cold water to near or full boiling temps rather quickly. High temps kill off enzyme activity so ways round had to be found.

For normal/Cottons/Linens and even Permanent Press cycles solution for European washers was often to include a warm or cold pre-wash/soak before main wash. This gave enzymes time to work before hot or boil wash followed. Later on came various "energy saving" or "stain" cycles that had finer control over how fast wash water temps rose. This allowed time for enzymes to work before temps reached higher end of their useful limits.

P&G launched Ariel detergent with enzymes and it was off to races. No need for separate pre-soaking product. One could bung laundry into main wash with Ariel, or if one wished use it as pre-wash or soaker.

Virtually everyone followed such as P&G's Tide in North America and Henkel's Persil. Gradually presoak products such as Biz morphed into wash day "booster" products.

 

[qsd-dan]

I remember you telling me about the tempering valve. Personally, (and this is only due to personal preference, not saying you are wrong or that I am right) I like having the water heater set at 142*F. I find 140*F in the tub is the minimum hot temperature which gives the best wash results for the energy used.

105-110*F is the optimal warm for me and 60*F is the optimal cold. Though in the winter I get cold temps below 60*F so technically this is where I need ATC or a tempering valve.

Have you ever tried Tide Professional? I feel this is where you can turn down the temps and still get great results.

Most detergent manufacturers recommend a minimum of 75F for cold washing, 60F is way too cold for good results unless you are using a specific cold water detergent with the proper enzyme package. Tide Professional powder recommends a minimum temperature of 90F. I turn up my tempering valve to 93F (it's around 90-91F once filled and agitating) when using it. You're losing out on a bunch of cleaning ability from Tide Professional using temperatures below 85F.

I use oxygen bleach for whites as I'm a septic tank and it's happy above 150F. Above 155F (once filled and agitating), causes the elastic in socks and underwear to relax a bit. With 160F at the fill flume, the water temp is around 153F once filled and agitating....perfect. Then a 3-4 hour soak occurs half way through the wash cycle. I haven't noticed reduced cleaning results with Tide, Tide with bleach, or Tide Professional using high water temperatures.

 

[Chetlaham]

IIRC on both sides of the pond enzyme products first appeared as pre-soak or booster products.

In USA where top loading washers with central beaters (and comparatively short cycles) soaking before washing (as had been done in days of wringer or other semi-automatic if not manual washing) had benefits.

However, in Europe where h-axis washing machines (with their long cycles) dominated things were bit different. There top issue was self-heating washers that could take tap cold water to near or full boiling temps rather quickly. High temps kill off enzyme activity so ways round had to be found.

For a while now I've conceptualized top load washers with either a long pre-soak before the wash or building soaks into the wash period itself. I will gladly take the option of 15-20 extra minutes of cycle time if it means less energy and less fading of fabrics while producing superior results.

The thing I've never liked about washers with auto soak cycles, including my Speed Queen, is that they drain out the water instead of advancing directly into the wash cycle.