P---y whipped fer shure!
I'm thinking LOVELY apron on that man!
I'm thinking LOVELY apron on that man!
Water heaters
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polkanut
Well-known member
Caption: "Just shut up and drink your damn coffee, I'm the king if this castle!"
water heaters need two pieces of advice
I am going to be installing a small water heater in my parent's house in July. It will only serve two dishwashers (but not at the same time) and two washers (also not at the same time).
I can't do gas, but I do have a 240V Split-Phase Dual 35Amp line free for it.
Any recommendations? I am kinda of leaning toward on-demand, since I have the power and the machines fill by volume not time.
On the other hand, if I do a tank, that would be much cheaper and also free up one side of that circuit for a much needed 20-Amp line into one of the kitchens.
10 Gallons enough? 30 too much?
Appreciate any and all help and advice.
Second problem.
Since my parent's accident, they have tremendous problems moving quickly. The water heater is set to 140°F; this is way above the danger point. Everytime I turn it down to 120°F, my brother turns it back up. (We all know I am hysterical and the fact that 140°F water can scald you in less than 1 second is just another one of those myths like evolution).
Is there any way to "doctor" the dial so it "shows" 140°F but really only runs at 120°F? I was thinking of maybe boring out the hub and recasting in epoxy...
Once the washers and dishwashers are being serviced with 150°F water, I doubt anyone would notice the rest.
Oh, the temperature limiter I installed in the bathroom was taken out and thrown away the day I left for Germany, so no good suggesting that one.
I am going to be installing a small water heater in my parent's house in July. It will only serve two dishwashers (but not at the same time) and two washers (also not at the same time).
I can't do gas, but I do have a 240V Split-Phase Dual 35Amp line free for it.
Any recommendations? I am kinda of leaning toward on-demand, since I have the power and the machines fill by volume not time.
On the other hand, if I do a tank, that would be much cheaper and also free up one side of that circuit for a much needed 20-Amp line into one of the kitchens.
10 Gallons enough? 30 too much?
Appreciate any and all help and advice.
Second problem.
Since my parent's accident, they have tremendous problems moving quickly. The water heater is set to 140°F; this is way above the danger point. Everytime I turn it down to 120°F, my brother turns it back up. (We all know I am hysterical and the fact that 140°F water can scald you in less than 1 second is just another one of those myths like evolution).
Is there any way to "doctor" the dial so it "shows" 140°F but really only runs at 120°F? I was thinking of maybe boring out the hub and recasting in epoxy...
Once the washers and dishwashers are being serviced with 150°F water, I doubt anyone would notice the rest.
Oh, the temperature limiter I installed in the bathroom was taken out and thrown away the day I left for Germany, so no good suggesting that one.
Panthera,
Since electricity is so much more expensive, I'd go for the tankless. That way you are not paying to keep water hot 7x24 when it's used only sporadically. The extra 20 amp line is a separate issue... can it be added later?
With regard to the temp dial. Yes, I think it should be possible to set the heater to 120, remove the dial without turning it, drill or mill out the center hole, fill it with epoxy, slap it back on the post with the 140 aligned with the mark, and walk away quietly.
But there's no guarantee that your brother won't figure that trick out, either. Perhaps it would be better to sit your parents and brother down and explain your concerns about scalding. If they still won't go along with your wishes, well, you tried, didn't you?
Since electricity is so much more expensive, I'd go for the tankless. That way you are not paying to keep water hot 7x24 when it's used only sporadically. The extra 20 amp line is a separate issue... can it be added later?
With regard to the temp dial. Yes, I think it should be possible to set the heater to 120, remove the dial without turning it, drill or mill out the center hole, fill it with epoxy, slap it back on the post with the 140 aligned with the mark, and walk away quietly.
But there's no guarantee that your brother won't figure that trick out, either. Perhaps it would be better to sit your parents and brother down and explain your concerns about scalding. If they still won't go along with your wishes, well, you tried, didn't you?
Rich,
Thanks. I am kinda leaning towards on demand as that is what I have been using here in Germany since 1986.
On the other hand, no, I can not add another circuit easily and it would be awful nice to have that extra 20 amps.
The sitting down part sounds so lovely and reasonable and adult.
In my family, this is not an option. I won't trouble you with the details, it just is so.
My status in the family is that of a not-too-bright seven year old. On good days.
Which US brands are good? Bosch doesn't sell anything in the small size range I need and after everything I've read about the Whirlpool controller boards in this thread, (maybe they got them cheap from the Maytags?
)) I am not crazy about that solution.
Thanks. I am kinda leaning towards on demand as that is what I have been using here in Germany since 1986.
On the other hand, no, I can not add another circuit easily and it would be awful nice to have that extra 20 amps.
The sitting down part sounds so lovely and reasonable and adult.
In my family, this is not an option. I won't trouble you with the details, it just is so.
My status in the family is that of a not-too-bright seven year old. On good days.
Which US brands are good? Bosch doesn't sell anything in the small size range I need and after everything I've read about the Whirlpool controller boards in this thread, (maybe they got them cheap from the Maytags?
)) I am not crazy about that solution.Where is the heater located?
If it is in a protected area and you can wrap it with an additional insulation blanket, I'd just go for a 30 gallon tank type with good inbuilt insulation. I really don't think that a well insulated tank in a protected location looses that much heat, and having the extra power for the kitchen could be an important safety issue if it would prevent family members from using extension cords to power appliances that shouldn't use extension cords.
Ruud/Rheem makes some 30 gallon electric heaters, although you'll get a better selection in the 40 gallon size. They also make tankless types. My energy consultants say their gas fired products are decent, I don't know anything about the electric ones so some research might be a good idea.
If it is in a protected area and you can wrap it with an additional insulation blanket, I'd just go for a 30 gallon tank type with good inbuilt insulation. I really don't think that a well insulated tank in a protected location looses that much heat, and having the extra power for the kitchen could be an important safety issue if it would prevent family members from using extension cords to power appliances that shouldn't use extension cords.
Ruud/Rheem makes some 30 gallon electric heaters, although you'll get a better selection in the 40 gallon size. They also make tankless types. My energy consultants say their gas fired products are decent, I don't know anything about the electric ones so some research might be a good idea.
Hydralique
Thanks - 30 gallons would already be a tough fit, but it seems like the smaller you go the more it costs and the poorer the insulation and quality.
I haven't read anything bad about Ruud/Rheem in the internet, in constrast to American/Whirlpool. Bummer 'cause Whirlpool has exactly what I want at a good price.
Gas isn't going to be an option. No way to vent it anywhere close enough to where I will be using it. The current water heater is a good 40-45 feet away from the users. That means the FLs barely get warm water and the dishwashers don't get hot water until their final rinse.
If I only power up these four appliances, would it be okay to just run out to a manifold and take the four SS-covered neoprene hoses from there? I know the valves produce quite a shock when they turn off, but I would think the hoses would have enough "give" to absorb it? They are all four within six feet of the place I want to put the water heater (a very solid overhead cabinet above the downstairs dishwasher, so right below the upstairs washer,etc.)
Thanks - 30 gallons would already be a tough fit, but it seems like the smaller you go the more it costs and the poorer the insulation and quality.
I haven't read anything bad about Ruud/Rheem in the internet, in constrast to American/Whirlpool. Bummer 'cause Whirlpool has exactly what I want at a good price.
Gas isn't going to be an option. No way to vent it anywhere close enough to where I will be using it. The current water heater is a good 40-45 feet away from the users. That means the FLs barely get warm water and the dishwashers don't get hot water until their final rinse.
If I only power up these four appliances, would it be okay to just run out to a manifold and take the four SS-covered neoprene hoses from there? I know the valves produce quite a shock when they turn off, but I would think the hoses would have enough "give" to absorb it? They are all four within six feet of the place I want to put the water heater (a very solid overhead cabinet above the downstairs dishwasher, so right below the upstairs washer,etc.)
oil tankless
I have an oil-fired steam boiler with a tankless inside of it for domestic hot water, during summer (now) the boiler maintains the water at 145-150 degrees so I have instant hot water and the boiler basically only runs when I am using hot water otherwise it runs about 4 min once an hour to maintain. My only complaint is the temp. fluctuation while I take a shower, it gradually gets cooler, you hear the boiler kick on then the water gets back up to temp or hotter in about 2-3 min. Then the boiler shuts off and the water starts to cool again. Its really not that bad and the changes are subtle and I deal with it. Oil heats water faster than gas which is why I guess you never see a "tankless" in a gas boiler or at least I never have. I will probably stick with the oil-fired tankless.
I have an oil-fired steam boiler with a tankless inside of it for domestic hot water, during summer (now) the boiler maintains the water at 145-150 degrees so I have instant hot water and the boiler basically only runs when I am using hot water otherwise it runs about 4 min once an hour to maintain. My only complaint is the temp. fluctuation while I take a shower, it gradually gets cooler, you hear the boiler kick on then the water gets back up to temp or hotter in about 2-3 min. Then the boiler shuts off and the water starts to cool again. Its really not that bad and the changes are subtle and I deal with it. Oil heats water faster than gas which is why I guess you never see a "tankless" in a gas boiler or at least I never have. I will probably stick with the oil-fired tankless.
Panthera...
I understand. Maybe the sitting down part would go better with a professionally trained family counselor moderating the session, LOL. I can't preach about functional family matters, because I never had one, but if you're still treated as a seven year old or less, perhaps it's time for a change. Nuff said.
Don't know much about tankless designs here in the USA. If I were looking, however, Google would be my friend.
I understand. Maybe the sitting down part would go better with a professionally trained family counselor moderating the session, LOL. I can't preach about functional family matters, because I never had one, but if you're still treated as a seven year old or less, perhaps it's time for a change. Nuff said.
Don't know much about tankless designs here in the USA. If I were looking, however, Google would be my friend.
Stainless Steel Gas-fired Water Heater
I looked high and low for new monel storage gas fired water heaters, but apparently they are no longer made.
Finally I found a mfg of stainless tank gas-fired water heaters... with exceptional efficiency to boot (as high as 93%). Don't know the pricing, but the model is the Phoenix. Here's a link:
I looked high and low for new monel storage gas fired water heaters, but apparently they are no longer made.
Finally I found a mfg of stainless tank gas-fired water heaters... with exceptional efficiency to boot (as high as 93%). Don't know the pricing, but the model is the Phoenix. Here's a link:
Rich,
Thank you.
I will check into it. I like solutions which are fully automatic and work for decades.
You are, of course, right - professional counseling is indicated.
The family response to this suggestion was that I am the only one in need of professional help.
Well, I do meet regularly with a psychiatrist to work through my feelings...
If I sometimes lose it about fundamentalist christians, there is a reason. I can't even begin to understand how making our parents suffer in order to punish me for being gay is the christian god's will. If it is, well, then, who needs a devil?
Anyway, I will keep y'all informed on the water heater situation...and I appreciate all your advice. With all those KAs and Tragi-Matics running around, there have to be lots of us who have not been in enough hot water.
Thank you.
I will check into it. I like solutions which are fully automatic and work for decades.
You are, of course, right - professional counseling is indicated.
The family response to this suggestion was that I am the only one in need of professional help.
Well, I do meet regularly with a psychiatrist to work through my feelings...
If I sometimes lose it about fundamentalist christians, there is a reason. I can't even begin to understand how making our parents suffer in order to punish me for being gay is the christian god's will. If it is, well, then, who needs a devil?
Anyway, I will keep y'all informed on the water heater situation...and I appreciate all your advice. With all those KAs and Tragi-Matics running around, there have to be lots of us who have not been in enough hot water.
The storage vs. tankless debate is almost as good as top-loader vs. front-loader. As with washers, understanding the weaknesses, as well as the often over-hyped strengths of each type, and then matching them to one's circumstances is the best course of action.
From what I've found, Bradford White (sold only thru pros), Rheem/Ruud (GE), AO Smith/State (Sears) seems to be the preferred ranking. The ones made by American (Whirlpool) are the subject of a class action suit, and there are no shortage of horror stories about futile efforts to swap parts on a poor design.
A few years ago, the guvmint required new designs to prevent stupid people from blowing themselves up. Of course, this has lead to teething pains, and designs that need to have intakes cleaned, and one fail-safe design that can instantly turn a water heater into a hunk of metal ready to go to the smelter ready to be turned into a Camry.
I've also learned how to shower with 10 gallons of water of less!
From what I've found, Bradford White (sold only thru pros), Rheem/Ruud (GE), AO Smith/State (Sears) seems to be the preferred ranking. The ones made by American (Whirlpool) are the subject of a class action suit, and there are no shortage of horror stories about futile efforts to swap parts on a poor design.
A few years ago, the guvmint required new designs to prevent stupid people from blowing themselves up. Of course, this has lead to teething pains, and designs that need to have intakes cleaned, and one fail-safe design that can instantly turn a water heater into a hunk of metal ready to go to the smelter ready to be turned into a Camry.
I've also learned how to shower with 10 gallons of water of less!
"I can't even begin to understand how making our parents suffer in order to punish me for being gay is the christian god's will."
That's right up there with picketing the funerals of soldiers because our nation is supposedly too tolerant of gays.
How about Adult Protective Services?
That's right up there with picketing the funerals of soldiers because our nation is supposedly too tolerant of gays.
How about Adult Protective Services?
whirlcool
Well-known member
I heard that in the 1930's before pressure relief valves were installed in hot water heaters that it was quite common for them to explode.
When this happened, a tank could take off like a rocket, shoot up from the basement up thru 2 floors and thru the roof and land maybe 2 blocks away on some unsuspecting person.
Can you imagine the noise that would make?
When this happened, a tank could take off like a rocket, shoot up from the basement up thru 2 floors and thru the roof and land maybe 2 blocks away on some unsuspecting person.
Can you imagine the noise that would make?
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exploder3211
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exploder3211
Well-known member
- Joined
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SO this leaves me with one question?
Do i need a pressure relif tank with a tankless water heater? Hmmm?? I am getting the ungrateful itch to build another house... Oh no...
Do i need a pressure relif tank with a tankless water heater? Hmmm?? I am getting the ungrateful itch to build another house... Oh no...
mayken4now
Well-known member
Forget the heater, boil it on the stove and use in small portions, heat it up again when it get's too cool for usage.
LOL
LOL
Water heaters (gas buildup)
A description or analysis of the water there would have been
helpful. Is this only a reaction between H2O and the metals
(what about Monel) in a water heater or do those water supplies
that smell like hydrogen sulfide have a higher tendency towards
this problem?
A description or analysis of the water there would have been
helpful. Is this only a reaction between H2O and the metals
(what about Monel) in a water heater or do those water supplies
that smell like hydrogen sulfide have a higher tendency towards
this problem?
Interesting? electric water heater tidbit
Most of you guys probably know this, but I didn't until recently: If you have an electric water heater, and your bill suddenly goes up, it may be that one of your elements has failed, which has made the other one kick into overdrive, and stay on. You'd never know it to look at it, or by the amount of hot water you are getting from it.
Most of you guys probably know this, but I didn't until recently: If you have an electric water heater, and your bill suddenly goes up, it may be that one of your elements has failed, which has made the other one kick into overdrive, and stay on. You'd never know it to look at it, or by the amount of hot water you are getting from it.
Monel is very unreactive (it's nickel and copper, mainly) so I don't think it would be the cause of the hydrogen problem. According to what I've read, the issue is most often associated with magnesium anode rods, which are the most aggressive type of anode rod. Anode rods self generate a small amount of current, as they dissolve preferentially to exposed steel inside the water heater. Under some circumstances (corrosive water, exposed corroded tank inner surfaces, 2 weeks or more of no heated water draw) the small current generates hydrogen gas which can build up in the heater. Since monel doesn't corrode readily at all, I'm not sure if monel tanks have anode rods to begin with.
Other rods use aluminum instead of magnesium; when I replaced the rod in my tank I was told that magnesium rods were unavailable and all I could get was an aluminum one. The hex head bolt that holds the anode rod in place on top of the water heater can reveal what type of rod is within: a flat head surface means an aluminum rod; a small rounded bump in the center of the hex head means it's a magnesium rod. If the old rod is magnesium, and there is a secondary rod on the hot water outlet, then the replacement rod should be magnesium as well, not aluminum. Otherwise any magnesium remaining on the secondary rod will rapidly dissolve in an effort to "save" the aluminum in the replacement rod.
At one time, galvanized steel was used to make water heater tanks. This turned out not to be such a good idea. At high water temps (160F or more) the zinc metal can undergo a reversal of sacrificial anode electron flow, resulting in accelerated corrosion of the steel tank. For this reason, zinc anode rods are not used either.
Other rods use aluminum instead of magnesium; when I replaced the rod in my tank I was told that magnesium rods were unavailable and all I could get was an aluminum one. The hex head bolt that holds the anode rod in place on top of the water heater can reveal what type of rod is within: a flat head surface means an aluminum rod; a small rounded bump in the center of the hex head means it's a magnesium rod. If the old rod is magnesium, and there is a secondary rod on the hot water outlet, then the replacement rod should be magnesium as well, not aluminum. Otherwise any magnesium remaining on the secondary rod will rapidly dissolve in an effort to "save" the aluminum in the replacement rod.
At one time, galvanized steel was used to make water heater tanks. This turned out not to be such a good idea. At high water temps (160F or more) the zinc metal can undergo a reversal of sacrificial anode electron flow, resulting in accelerated corrosion of the steel tank. For this reason, zinc anode rods are not used either.
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