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I am peeved with my landlord--

he replaced a nice 40 gallon gas heated tank, when it failed, with a 30 gallon one. This new one is a Whirlpool brand unit, and so far, it's been all right. It's in the locked basement, so I have no idea as to gas input.

I have to schedule, though. I cannot run a full wash load (warm or hot) and then shower, but I can run a load of dishes and then shower, for example.

He knows I have a washer and dishwasher, so I am puzzled as to why the 30 gallons instead of 40, but I guess he thought that since I live alone, and Boris The Cat does not use much hot water, 30 gallons would be adequate.....

Because it is in the locked basement, I have the thermostat a little higher than I would really like (around 140F). Wish I could adjust it more easily.

So far, it's been ok. The burner, however, is still very noisy. Then again, it's under my reading chair, and I notice that :)

Lawrence/Maytagbear
 
Monel came along before stainless steel. It was also called German Silver. When I was touring the Ringling Mansion in Sarasota, the docent said that the kitchen sinks were made of German Silver and everyone ooohed and aaahed. We have a little Monel water heater given to us by a friend a couple of years ago. It's a Rudd and had been in service since before WWII. The drain valve finally started leaking so they replaced it. When I saw that the tank was only 20 gallons, I asked if they ever ran short of hot water and the answer was no. I guess some people get along with a lot less hot water than I.

As far as old water heater ads go, I remember when they first started advertising Glass Lined tanks. Everyone pictured some huge Pyrex thing only to find out when it started leaking that it was glass fused to steel i.e. porcelain and it did break down with age.

John had one of those Survivor gas water heaters which he liked. The tank was a very heavy insulated plastic, but it started leaking. They had been out of production a while so he had to take as a replacement a more standard design water heater.
 
Whirlpools

I replaced two 40-gallon gas water heaters within the last year. One at my mom's and one at my own place. My mom had a Wards from 1973 that never had a problem. Her house is over 80 years old and has the original pipes, and that Wards heater never got any sort of maintenance. It plugged along for almost 35 years and was loaded with sediment for many years before it sprang a leak. Replaced that with the cheapest gas model from OSH (Sears) and it's doing fine, the burner is very quiet.

My own heater, a "Continental" that was there when we bought our place 17 years ago, sprang a leak shortly after we had some plumbing work done nearby. I shopped on line and found the best deal at Lowe's on a Whirlpool with 2" insulation and "flame lock" that supposedly prevents any fumes from igniting. This heater is located in the garage, where fumes could be an issue. I have no complaints so far with delivery or recovery, but the burner really has a roar to it that I don't like. I didn't bother to do any research before buying other than hitting HD and having the same problem as mentioned above getting any information on their GE's. I went with the Whirlpool since it was on the low end of the energy guide and also since the garage is outfitted with the new Duet pair and my early 70's Whirlpool fridge, I figured why not go totally Whirlpool out there?

Found a guy on Craig's List to install it. To bring things up to code, the new heater had to be on a stand 18" above the floor. This meant re-working the inlet/outlet pipes that come out of the wall along with the gas piping, and it also needed earthquake straps. It ended up costing me more for installation than for the heater, but I couldn't have done the job myself. It's a clean looking arrangement with twin braided inlet & outlet connections arcing from the top of the heater to the wall connections. After reading the Whirlpool literature, I found that the "flame lock" feature eliminates the need for the 18" stand but I've gained some storage space under the heater so it's all good (even though they say not to store anything there). I also like the fact that because the heater has 2" of insulation, there is no need to wrap it with an unsightly blanket.

During installation I was working in my yard and the installer called to me to take a look at something. He showed me the opened box and the heater inside it, totally bashed up on all sides and even the top. We taped the box up and I drove back to Lowe's with it, no short drive as Lowes got to the Bay Area after all the good spots were taken for big box stores. The weird thing is, the box itself didn't look beat up or I wouldn't have selected it.

Got an unbashed up one and installation went fine after that, but for about a month the pilot would go out once in a while. Found that the small copper tube that feeds gas to the pilot was loose at the valve connection. What kind of quality control is that? I'm almost afraid to Google this heater and read of the problems. Maybe if there's a class action suit I'll get $1.29 or something from Whirlpool a few years from now.
 
They are pretty much all the same.

I was told a few years ago by a reliable source that there are only two manufacturers of water heaters in the U.S.. They label the product with name brands like Whirlpool, Maytag Reem, Sears and so on. They are just Branded differently and it is the selling of the brand names. There is nothing more or less in the quality of the product. Your just paying a premium for the name like you would for "Polo".
The trick to ,long life is yearly servicing of the water heated.
Once a year turn off the incoming valve, turn the gas setting to off. Then open the drain valve and drain the tank when drained turn on incoming value for a minute or two. to rinse out any additional sediment. This should be done every year once a year. This will prolong the life of your heater and reduce you heating cost because the heat will not have to go through layers of sediment to get to the water. I was also told if it has not been done for awhile like 2 or more years don't bother the sediment has become to big to flush out the drain, or to calcified. FYI
 
Whirlpool Problem Solved?

I Googled "whirlpool water heater" and ended up on a Consumer Affairs site with a very long list of posts about problems with the thermocouples on Whirlpool (American) gas water heaters going out as often as every few months. Resigning myself to the fact that my heater was likely going to fail sooner rather than later, I kept reading and found a post from 2006 advising that the actual manufacturer, American Water Heater, had re-worked the whole flame-lock system and related thermocouple issues and that there should be no problems with thermocouple failure on heaters manufactured since that time. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this is accurate information that applies to my heater. Another post by a plumber advised that all water heaters are now required to have some kind of "flame-lock" system and that they have all been problematic regardless of manufacturer. It seems Whirlpool/American had a serious design flaw that has now been corrected, but the customer service experience for those who had problems has apparently been much worse with Whirlpool than with other manufacturers, and is likely why there are more negative posts about Whirlpool/American than the other makes. Sure hope I'm in the clear on this issue now that American has supposedly re-designed the "flame-lock" system.
 
Tom, german silver is not the same as monel. Monel typically contains 60% or more nickel, with the balance made of primarily of copper. The reverse is true of German silver, which is 60% or more copper, with the remainder made up primaily of nickel, sometimes with a little actual silver as well. To equate the two is somewhat like saying a top loader is the same as a front loader, LOL.
 
Monel Metal has the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval!

Here's an advertisment from Good Housekeeping's May, 1936 issue. I hope the image looks OK.

I had to scan it in two bits and stitch them together. My Photoshop skillz aren't what they should be, but you get the idea.

-kevin

6-15-2007-15-09-24--selectomatic.jpg
 
We have a Maytag branded water heater. No problems in about 4 years.

When we were looking a few years ago, we went to the local Lowes, and Menards, to shop and compare.

Lowes had the Maytag, Menards had a Richmond brand. They had similar features, they were within a few dollars of each other on price. What made the difference?
The Maytag was made by State Industries, in Tennessee. The Richmond came from Mexico. Easy choice!

kennyGF
 
The Monel ad came out great, Selectomatic.

I was intrigued to read the line about the monel-topped Magic Chef range. Now, that would be a real find today. I collected some 50's era Wedgewood gas ranges recently, but the tops are either white porcelain or chromed steel. In most cases, the chrome wears or pits (salt is a big enemy of chrome) and this detracts from their overall appearance and value. But a monel range top, that would be very nice indeed.
 
water heaters need two pieces of advice

I am going to be installing a small water heater in my parent's house in July. It will only serve two dishwashers (but not at the same time) and two washers (also not at the same time).
I can't do gas, but I do have a 240V Split-Phase Dual 35Amp line free for it.
Any recommendations? I am kinda of leaning toward on-demand, since I have the power and the machines fill by volume not time.
On the other hand, if I do a tank, that would be much cheaper and also free up one side of that circuit for a much needed 20-Amp line into one of the kitchens.
10 Gallons enough? 30 too much?
Appreciate any and all help and advice.
Second problem.
Since my parent's accident, they have tremendous problems moving quickly. The water heater is set to 140°F; this is way above the danger point. Everytime I turn it down to 120°F, my brother turns it back up. (We all know I am hysterical and the fact that 140°F water can scald you in less than 1 second is just another one of those myths like evolution).
Is there any way to "doctor" the dial so it "shows" 140°F but really only runs at 120°F? I was thinking of maybe boring out the hub and recasting in epoxy...
Once the washers and dishwashers are being serviced with 150°F water, I doubt anyone would notice the rest.
Oh, the temperature limiter I installed in the bathroom was taken out and thrown away the day I left for Germany, so no good suggesting that one.
 
Panthera,

Since electricity is so much more expensive, I'd go for the tankless. That way you are not paying to keep water hot 7x24 when it's used only sporadically. The extra 20 amp line is a separate issue... can it be added later?

With regard to the temp dial. Yes, I think it should be possible to set the heater to 120, remove the dial without turning it, drill or mill out the center hole, fill it with epoxy, slap it back on the post with the 140 aligned with the mark, and walk away quietly.

But there's no guarantee that your brother won't figure that trick out, either. Perhaps it would be better to sit your parents and brother down and explain your concerns about scalding. If they still won't go along with your wishes, well, you tried, didn't you?
 
Rich,

Thanks. I am kinda leaning towards on demand as that is what I have been using here in Germany since 1986.
On the other hand, no, I can not add another circuit easily and it would be awful nice to have that extra 20 amps.

The sitting down part sounds so lovely and reasonable and adult.
In my family, this is not an option. I won't trouble you with the details, it just is so.

My status in the family is that of a not-too-bright seven year old. On good days.

Which US brands are good? Bosch doesn't sell anything in the small size range I need and after everything I've read about the Whirlpool controller boards in this thread, (maybe they got them cheap from the Maytags? :-))) I am not crazy about that solution.
 
Where is the heater located?

If it is in a protected area and you can wrap it with an additional insulation blanket, I'd just go for a 30 gallon tank type with good inbuilt insulation. I really don't think that a well insulated tank in a protected location looses that much heat, and having the extra power for the kitchen could be an important safety issue if it would prevent family members from using extension cords to power appliances that shouldn't use extension cords.

Ruud/Rheem makes some 30 gallon electric heaters, although you'll get a better selection in the 40 gallon size. They also make tankless types. My energy consultants say their gas fired products are decent, I don't know anything about the electric ones so some research might be a good idea.
 
Hydralique

Thanks - 30 gallons would already be a tough fit, but it seems like the smaller you go the more it costs and the poorer the insulation and quality.
I haven't read anything bad about Ruud/Rheem in the internet, in constrast to American/Whirlpool. Bummer 'cause Whirlpool has exactly what I want at a good price.
Gas isn't going to be an option. No way to vent it anywhere close enough to where I will be using it. The current water heater is a good 40-45 feet away from the users. That means the FLs barely get warm water and the dishwashers don't get hot water until their final rinse.
If I only power up these four appliances, would it be okay to just run out to a manifold and take the four SS-covered neoprene hoses from there? I know the valves produce quite a shock when they turn off, but I would think the hoses would have enough "give" to absorb it? They are all four within six feet of the place I want to put the water heater (a very solid overhead cabinet above the downstairs dishwasher, so right below the upstairs washer,etc.)
 
oil tankless

I have an oil-fired steam boiler with a tankless inside of it for domestic hot water, during summer (now) the boiler maintains the water at 145-150 degrees so I have instant hot water and the boiler basically only runs when I am using hot water otherwise it runs about 4 min once an hour to maintain. My only complaint is the temp. fluctuation while I take a shower, it gradually gets cooler, you hear the boiler kick on then the water gets back up to temp or hotter in about 2-3 min. Then the boiler shuts off and the water starts to cool again. Its really not that bad and the changes are subtle and I deal with it. Oil heats water faster than gas which is why I guess you never see a "tankless" in a gas boiler or at least I never have. I will probably stick with the oil-fired tankless.
 
Panthera...

I understand. Maybe the sitting down part would go better with a professionally trained family counselor moderating the session, LOL. I can't preach about functional family matters, because I never had one, but if you're still treated as a seven year old or less, perhaps it's time for a change. Nuff said.

Don't know much about tankless designs here in the USA. If I were looking, however, Google would be my friend.
 
Stainless Steel Gas-fired Water Heater

I looked high and low for new monel storage gas fired water heaters, but apparently they are no longer made.

Finally I found a mfg of stainless tank gas-fired water heaters... with exceptional efficiency to boot (as high as 93%). Don't know the pricing, but the model is the Phoenix. Here's a link:

http://www.htproducts.com/products/phoenix/index.html
 
Rich,

Thank you.
I will check into it. I like solutions which are fully automatic and work for decades.
You are, of course, right - professional counseling is indicated.
The family response to this suggestion was that I am the only one in need of professional help.
Well, I do meet regularly with a psychiatrist to work through my feelings...
If I sometimes lose it about fundamentalist christians, there is a reason. I can't even begin to understand how making our parents suffer in order to punish me for being gay is the christian god's will. If it is, well, then, who needs a devil?
Anyway, I will keep y'all informed on the water heater situation...and I appreciate all your advice. With all those KAs and Tragi-Matics running around, there have to be lots of us who have not been in enough hot water.
 
The storage vs. tankless debate is almost as good as top-loader vs. front-loader. As with washers, understanding the weaknesses, as well as the often over-hyped strengths of each type, and then matching them to one's circumstances is the best course of action.

From what I've found, Bradford White (sold only thru pros), Rheem/Ruud (GE), AO Smith/State (Sears) seems to be the preferred ranking. The ones made by American (Whirlpool) are the subject of a class action suit, and there are no shortage of horror stories about futile efforts to swap parts on a poor design.

A few years ago, the guvmint required new designs to prevent stupid people from blowing themselves up. Of course, this has lead to teething pains, and designs that need to have intakes cleaned, and one fail-safe design that can instantly turn a water heater into a hunk of metal ready to go to the smelter ready to be turned into a Camry.

I've also learned how to shower with 10 gallons of water of less!
 
"I can't even begin to understand how making our parents suffer in order to punish me for being gay is the christian god's will."

That's right up there with picketing the funerals of soldiers because our nation is supposedly too tolerant of gays.

How about Adult Protective Services?
 
I heard that in the 1930's before pressure relief valves were installed in hot water heaters that it was quite common for them to explode.
When this happened, a tank could take off like a rocket, shoot up from the basement up thru 2 floors and thru the roof and land maybe 2 blocks away on some unsuspecting person.
Can you imagine the noise that would make?

http://www.independentinspectors.org/newsletter2-autumn01.html
 
SO this leaves me with one question?
Do i need a pressure relif tank with a tankless water heater? Hmmm?? I am getting the ungrateful itch to build another house... Oh no...
 
Water heaters (gas buildup)

A description or analysis of the water there would have been
helpful. Is this only a reaction between H2O and the metals
(what about Monel) in a water heater or do those water supplies
that smell like hydrogen sulfide have a higher tendency towards
this problem?
 
Interesting? electric water heater tidbit

Most of you guys probably know this, but I didn't until recently: If you have an electric water heater, and your bill suddenly goes up, it may be that one of your elements has failed, which has made the other one kick into overdrive, and stay on. You'd never know it to look at it, or by the amount of hot water you are getting from it.
 
Monel is very unreactive (it's nickel and copper, mainly) so I don't think it would be the cause of the hydrogen problem. According to what I've read, the issue is most often associated with magnesium anode rods, which are the most aggressive type of anode rod. Anode rods self generate a small amount of current, as they dissolve preferentially to exposed steel inside the water heater. Under some circumstances (corrosive water, exposed corroded tank inner surfaces, 2 weeks or more of no heated water draw) the small current generates hydrogen gas which can build up in the heater. Since monel doesn't corrode readily at all, I'm not sure if monel tanks have anode rods to begin with.

Other rods use aluminum instead of magnesium; when I replaced the rod in my tank I was told that magnesium rods were unavailable and all I could get was an aluminum one. The hex head bolt that holds the anode rod in place on top of the water heater can reveal what type of rod is within: a flat head surface means an aluminum rod; a small rounded bump in the center of the hex head means it's a magnesium rod. If the old rod is magnesium, and there is a secondary rod on the hot water outlet, then the replacement rod should be magnesium as well, not aluminum. Otherwise any magnesium remaining on the secondary rod will rapidly dissolve in an effort to "save" the aluminum in the replacement rod.

At one time, galvanized steel was used to make water heater tanks. This turned out not to be such a good idea. At high water temps (160F or more) the zinc metal can undergo a reversal of sacrificial anode electron flow, resulting in accelerated corrosion of the steel tank. For this reason, zinc anode rods are not used either.
 
I am getting the ungrateful itch to build another house... Oh no...

Impulse control, dahlink, Impulse control!
Quick get some Vagisil! (ducks and runs)

OOOOH thank you for the priceless information! Direct-fired Stainless Steel gas hot water heaters are a new one on me!

Bad thing is- doesn't work in a blackout.
 

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