Why is the water temperature selection knob separate on timer based EU machines? Why not build the temperature into the cycle knob? Less time for 30*C and more time for 95*C. Just seems to make more sense from a simplicity standpoint.
Water Temprature Knob
- Thread starter Chetlaham
- Start date
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Simply put
A separate thermostat is cheaper than having it in the timer, Most machines are cold fill only and so if you select 95c the stat will halt the timer until the temp is reached.
Also if you wish you can select a temp in between the set ones ie 90 or 50c instead of 95 or 60 it gives the user more choice and freedom to pick the most economical setting for the soil level etc.
Even on the most expensive models you can still choose the temp you want !
Austin
A separate thermostat is cheaper than having it in the timer, Most machines are cold fill only and so if you select 95c the stat will halt the timer until the temp is reached.
Also if you wish you can select a temp in between the set ones ie 90 or 50c instead of 95 or 60 it gives the user more choice and freedom to pick the most economical setting for the soil level etc.
Even on the most expensive models you can still choose the temp you want !
Austin
Actually, that often was the case
Old school machines offered that as premium feature, separate temp control.
Base machines had like 4 cotton cycles (90C with pre-wash, 90 without, 60, 40).
More upline machines often made that Pre-wash, intensive, normal and short (or similar) and then all of that could be run at every temp.
Should be obvious that made for more possibilities...
30C with pre-wash etc.
Addendum:
Actually, the US was exactly the same, so I don't really get why you ask.
All the Whirlpool DD washers had a separate temp selector except for the very BOL models for the exact se reason.
Dunno why the EU part matters there...[this post was last edited: 6/17/2021-11:12]
Old school machines offered that as premium feature, separate temp control.
Base machines had like 4 cotton cycles (90C with pre-wash, 90 without, 60, 40).
More upline machines often made that Pre-wash, intensive, normal and short (or similar) and then all of that could be run at every temp.
Should be obvious that made for more possibilities...
30C with pre-wash etc.
Addendum:
Actually, the US was exactly the same, so I don't really get why you ask.
All the Whirlpool DD washers had a separate temp selector except for the very BOL models for the exact se reason.
Dunno why the EU part matters there...[this post was last edited: 6/17/2021-11:12]
I still don't understand how a separate therm could be cheaper. I mean you still would need a high limit stat (that I hope is there in any case should the main stat fail or timer sticks), however in theory the longer the wash cycle is the hotter the water will get. So, a 10 minute wash cycle will not get as hot as a 20 minute wash cycle, similarly 40 minutes will be even hotter.
If the heating element output is sized to boost the water temperature 2*F-2.5 per minute, then any reasonable temperature could be achieved simply by selecting the length of wash time. 70 minutes would give 190*F, 60 minutes 170*F, 50 minutes 150*F, 40 minutes 130*F, 30 minutes would give 110*F, 20 would give 90*F, 10 minutes would give 70*F.
Should all go wrong (stuck timer) or 190*F is reached early due to a warm fill the high limits cuts out at 192*F.
If the heating element output is sized to boost the water temperature 2*F-2.5 per minute, then any reasonable temperature could be achieved simply by selecting the length of wash time. 70 minutes would give 190*F, 60 minutes 170*F, 50 minutes 150*F, 40 minutes 130*F, 30 minutes would give 110*F, 20 would give 90*F, 10 minutes would give 70*F.
Should all go wrong (stuck timer) or 190*F is reached early due to a warm fill the high limits cuts out at 192*F.
@henene4: Correct, but the thing is US machines are still simpler wiring wise in that whether the temp is a separate knob or built into the timer you're only switching two solenoid coils at the start of the cycle.
EU machines on the other hand use heaters and the longer the heater runs the hotter the water gets... looking at schematics I see these machines are wired with thermal holds on top of bias heaters, multiple stats, ect. Lots of complexity and extra parts when in theory timing alone would suffice.
EU machines on the other hand use heaters and the longer the heater runs the hotter the water gets... looking at schematics I see these machines are wired with thermal holds on top of bias heaters, multiple stats, ect. Lots of complexity and extra parts when in theory timing alone would suffice.
Reply# 3
That's a theory that works out very differently in practice. It means that the initial temperature of the water should always be the same, that it shouldn't matter that a bigger load takes longer to heat up than a small load etc. etc.
Zanussi tried this and it didn't work. Their 60 Celcius cycle sometimes heated up to 85 degrees, almost a boil wash. They abandoned the system after a lot of critics from consumer organisations.
Besides that a lot of European housewives were used to having a separate temperature control on more TOL wringer washers and twintubs. My mother always insisted on having a separate temperature control. No separate control, no sale!
That's a theory that works out very differently in practice. It means that the initial temperature of the water should always be the same, that it shouldn't matter that a bigger load takes longer to heat up than a small load etc. etc.
Zanussi tried this and it didn't work. Their 60 Celcius cycle sometimes heated up to 85 degrees, almost a boil wash. They abandoned the system after a lot of critics from consumer organisations.
Besides that a lot of European housewives were used to having a separate temperature control on more TOL wringer washers and twintubs. My mother always insisted on having a separate temperature control. No separate control, no sale!
Consumers are victims of a system. More buttons are not better in any way. Consider how many BOL machines still exist, while high end models ended up with more timer problems. Ie, the AWN-432s didn't have the same common problem of failing to enage the start windings like the AWN-542 timers due to the immense number of small increments put into the timers to accommodate 4 more cycles.
Thermal holds, rapid advance timers, button modifiers that just skip pre-wash fills, ect all add extra complexity without adding to the basic function or goal of the machine.
There is also the fact the same timer is used for multiple models, yet a simple jumper or 3 wires brought to a simple switch raises the price by hundreds of dollars. Its all a marketing scam, and a shameful one IMO.
And of course you have the practice of not adding something really basic like an extra silver ware basket, nylon racks, wash level, agi fabric softener dispenser, sani-rinse, ect until you hit a much higher end model.
You are correct about temperature variants since input temps can vary between 35 to 75*F, however, I do not believe the final temperature deviation is large enough to sway performance. Further cutting off the heater 6 minutes before drain assures that delicate fabrics on a 12 minute wash cycle will not over heat even with an 75*F input (6 x 2.5 = 15 *F rise or 90*F final temp). The rest can tolerate extremes, in that even with a top load non ATC cold can vary between 35-75*F, warm can vary between 70-120*F, and hot can be between 100*F to 150*F or whatever the water heater is set to.
Thermal holds, rapid advance timers, button modifiers that just skip pre-wash fills, ect all add extra complexity without adding to the basic function or goal of the machine.
There is also the fact the same timer is used for multiple models, yet a simple jumper or 3 wires brought to a simple switch raises the price by hundreds of dollars. Its all a marketing scam, and a shameful one IMO.
And of course you have the practice of not adding something really basic like an extra silver ware basket, nylon racks, wash level, agi fabric softener dispenser, sani-rinse, ect until you hit a much higher end model.
You are correct about temperature variants since input temps can vary between 35 to 75*F, however, I do not believe the final temperature deviation is large enough to sway performance. Further cutting off the heater 6 minutes before drain assures that delicate fabrics on a 12 minute wash cycle will not over heat even with an 75*F input (6 x 2.5 = 15 *F rise or 90*F final temp). The rest can tolerate extremes, in that even with a top load non ATC cold can vary between 35-75*F, warm can vary between 70-120*F, and hot can be between 100*F to 150*F or whatever the water heater is set to.
Some kinds of items I'd like to have a nicely hot temperature 150°F, 160°F, 180°F and a short aggregate tumble time.
I have (allergen) pillows that state to wash in Hot water ... I bought them not so much for allergy purposes as for the washability. An ideal pillow cycle to avoid mangling would have minimal tumbling, like a woolens or silk cycle, with heating to 150°F or 160°F. Three heating/reheating periods with a flip/swish every 5 mins to equalize the temperature, and short wash tumbles between the reheating periods. Three short rinses with spins between, fast final spin for good extraction and quicker drying. Does any brand offer that? I expect not.
I'd much rather have a separate knob for wash water temperature and another spin speed. (Note, I'd prefer this be in all caps to convey my disdain for not being allowed to make those choices myself (actual rpm & temperature) like a lot of European front load machines.
"I do not believe the final temperature deviation is large enough to sway performance."
I actually told you it did. The deviation was 25 degrees Celcius = 77 degrees Fahrenheit.
I actually told you it did. The deviation was 25 degrees Celcius = 77 degrees Fahrenheit.
That can be reduced a bit, but again I'm not to bothered about that level of deviation. Clothes will still come out clean. Optimism is key 
And shrunken and discoloured!
actually, you need to start and build your own company...
then make any given machine to your specifications...of course EPA would chime in as well....
weigh out the differences in pricing and building....
and for the most part you will answer your own questions as to why some things can be done, and/or not...
and no longer a need to wonder why things are done a certain way.....
and even then you would still have critics posting why you can't build a machine a certain way....or what would be more cost effective....
one person to ask would be ThomasOrtega, there are bounds and heaps he has to overcome currently while constructing new machines....maybe then you will understand why things are done the way they are, or restrictions you must build them under....
there will always be ways of trying to build a better mouse trap....and most likely manufacturers have, and may not be cost effective, or warranted for many ideas to make it to production...
then make any given machine to your specifications...of course EPA would chime in as well....
weigh out the differences in pricing and building....
and for the most part you will answer your own questions as to why some things can be done, and/or not...
and no longer a need to wonder why things are done a certain way.....
and even then you would still have critics posting why you can't build a machine a certain way....or what would be more cost effective....
one person to ask would be ThomasOrtega, there are bounds and heaps he has to overcome currently while constructing new machines....maybe then you will understand why things are done the way they are, or restrictions you must build them under....
there will always be ways of trying to build a better mouse trap....and most likely manufacturers have, and may not be cost effective, or warranted for many ideas to make it to production...
Of course certain standard compel certain things, which is fundamentally unConstitutional. There is no freedom anymore, its gone. The smart are punished, the users are punished, the innocent hurt, the gov on the other hand lives deliciously with money garnished under force.
Of course there are those who would be outraged at a machine that can not spin or give precise temps. Thats where personal choice comes in. Where a person can choose if he wants a TOL machine, a budget machine, one the cleans, one the lasts, one the is quiet, big, small or the like. Government can not interfere with that.
Long before Thomas revealed the Niagra, I proposed a similar no spin timer controlled budget machine. I was told the clothes would be sopping wet, no one would buy it, energy regs would not allow it, ect. Come an year latter the Niagra is selling off the shelf and most users report that the clothes are not dripping wet. Wet, but not to horribly wet.
Being honest, if I may, I see unnecessarily excessive complexity US and EU machines, where as South American machines for example are much more simple for the same amount of work that they do.
But that is not may concern really, or the focal point of the matter, rather I like to toy with the idea of new and various improvements to existing designs. Have engineering debates and hypothetical discussions. Ideally I wish I could also pilot test machines in a lab or my own home, but that is a bit of a far reach.
Of course there are those who would be outraged at a machine that can not spin or give precise temps. Thats where personal choice comes in. Where a person can choose if he wants a TOL machine, a budget machine, one the cleans, one the lasts, one the is quiet, big, small or the like. Government can not interfere with that.
Long before Thomas revealed the Niagra, I proposed a similar no spin timer controlled budget machine. I was told the clothes would be sopping wet, no one would buy it, energy regs would not allow it, ect. Come an year latter the Niagra is selling off the shelf and most users report that the clothes are not dripping wet. Wet, but not to horribly wet.
Being honest, if I may, I see unnecessarily excessive complexity US and EU machines, where as South American machines for example are much more simple for the same amount of work that they do.
But that is not may concern really, or the focal point of the matter, rather I like to toy with the idea of new and various improvements to existing designs. Have engineering debates and hypothetical discussions. Ideally I wish I could also pilot test machines in a lab or my own home, but that is a bit of a far reach.
Perhaps, but I'm thinking that if they that sensitive to shrinking a separate no heat or pulsed heat cycle would do, either that a switch to drop the heater out the circuit.
Didn't the early Westinghouse Laundromats use the timer for temperature selection? IIRC, my ~ 1950 Laundromat had HOT at the top end of the dial (longest wash time) and WARM at the other end (shorter/shortest wash time), and I think MEDIUM in the middle.
I don't know how long Westinghouse used that system, but I would guess not much beyond the mid '50s.
I don't know how long Westinghouse used that system, but I would guess not much beyond the mid '50s.
Ralph, I remember Westinghouse using that "system" at least through 1954 or 1955. But as the years progressed, that type of timer became relegated to the bottom of the line at least through 1964 if not 1965.
Anyone have any pics of this Westinghouse knob? I like what I'm hearing.
A bit of searching led me to this picture from an old thread here. You can't see the whole knob, but the markings are as I remembered them above.
