Super-hot incoming water has potential to damage inlet/mixing valves that involve plastic parts.
What Temperature Is Your Tap Hot Water?
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Super-hot incoming water has potential to damage inlet/mixing valves that involve plastic parts.
Yes, one was aware of that fact.
Which was one reason stopped the little experiment earlier with Miele washer. Indeed only use uber hot water temps when doing wash by hand (in tub) or filling same with either of two semi-automatics (the Hover TT and Maytag wringer).
Which was one reason stopped the little experiment earlier with Miele washer. Indeed only use uber hot water temps when doing wash by hand (in tub) or filling same with either of two semi-automatics (the Hover TT and Maytag wringer).
My gas water heater is set as high as it will go. Temp at faucet depends on how much water I use, ranges from 150 to 165. Generally stays hotter in the winter as my whole house humidifier uses hot water, so there is a frequent draw that triggers the burner more often.
One advantage I see -for me - is that I have long runs to the dishwasher and with the low usage of new machines often the water is cool coming in. the very hot water tempers the cool water and means less heating needed. At some point I will add a recirculating system, gravity type, that will save water since the faucet will not have to run as long to get hot water. Water costs more here than the gas used for heating for some reason.
One advantage I see -for me - is that I have long runs to the dishwasher and with the low usage of new machines often the water is cool coming in. the very hot water tempers the cool water and means less heating needed. At some point I will add a recirculating system, gravity type, that will save water since the faucet will not have to run as long to get hot water. Water costs more here than the gas used for heating for some reason.
MattL
Your water rates are probably high because it probably is sourced from Lake Huron as is Flints. Every municipality in the US and Canada that sources their water from one of the great lakes was required to upgrade their sanitary sewers etc by separating them and basically have to bear the costs. Port Huron rates skyrocketed, Sarnia's rates skyrocketed . How the municipality puts the cost onto the homeowner can vary.. Some initially jacked their usage rates up like Sarnia did, which caused people to stop using as much water, so they rejigged it , lowered the usage rates but jacked up the sewer rate and admin fees to compensate.
Your water rates are probably high because it probably is sourced from Lake Huron as is Flints. Every municipality in the US and Canada that sources their water from one of the great lakes was required to upgrade their sanitary sewers etc by separating them and basically have to bear the costs. Port Huron rates skyrocketed, Sarnia's rates skyrocketed . How the municipality puts the cost onto the homeowner can vary.. Some initially jacked their usage rates up like Sarnia did, which caused people to stop using as much water, so they rejigged it , lowered the usage rates but jacked up the sewer rate and admin fees to compensate.
Exactly. I'm paying $200ish every 3 months for 1 person with all new water efficient appliances. Just put in a new 1.25g toilet replacing the on 3-5g 55 year old original one. I long ago quit using my in ground sprinklers.
Last time I check, the gas fired 50 gallon water heater measured out at 135-140 at the nearest tap. It seems to vary because, I guess, there's a range there.
It's plenty hot for the Neptune washer. The Miele washers sit in the workshop which has only cold water, but they heat it quite well on their own.
And the Bosch DW in the main house takes that 135 water to whatever it needs. Again, relatively efficiently. I usually run the nearest tap (kitchen sink) to make sure it gets tap hot water to begin with.
It's plenty hot for the Neptune washer. The Miele washers sit in the workshop which has only cold water, but they heat it quite well on their own.
And the Bosch DW in the main house takes that 135 water to whatever it needs. Again, relatively efficiently. I usually run the nearest tap (kitchen sink) to make sure it gets tap hot water to begin with.
When I lived in an apartment house building-the hot water was mixed with the cold water to get the temp down and stored in a large tank by the boiler.In one of the apartment buildings-they had two boilers-one for warmed water for heat-the other for hot tap water.The other apartment house had a boiler for hot water only.Your apartment had its own HVAC unit that heated or cooled-like in a regular house.The boiler was not used for heating water-only hot tap water.That place also mixed the heated water from the boiler water with cold water for the "hot" tap water so it was at a safe temp.Another reason for the lower hot temps-save energy and fuel for the landlord operating the building.And in the first place I described they could use fuel oil or natural gas to fire the boiler.They would use the fuel that was cheapest at that time.That place also had a Carrier chiller for AC in the spring-summer.
"And in the first place I described they could use fuel oil or natural gas to fire the boiler."
Duel fuel boilers are very common in north east as well, well in areas where buildings have access to natural gas supplies.
Beauty is that during or after a really bad storm a building doesn't have to worry if oil deliveries are delayed.
Duel fuel boilers are very common in north east as well, well in areas where buildings have access to natural gas supplies.
Beauty is that during or after a really bad storm a building doesn't have to worry if oil deliveries are delayed.
In Michigan, the water rates increase in SEMI are coming from storm water charges--they're having to deal with under-investment in the storm sewer system so they charge for the "impermeable" area of your lot. As water here in SEMI is a municipal function, each city/twp can handle it how they wish. We live in a tiny city which is pretty transparent, and the old-guard city manager used the water department and billing as a bit of a "slush fund" to keep everything balanced. It was a several-year effort to get everything untangled. Everyone's water bill around here has three components--water usage (rates relatively linear based on distance from DWSD--Detroit). sewer usage (associated with water usage) and storm water handling. Flint's situation related to their distance from Detroit Water and Sewerage...i.e. expensive, but their water treatment was customized to water with that makeup. When they changed to a cheaper local source for water, they didn't alter their water treatment regime, which then etched the pipes and caused all the problems. Switching back doesn't help, because the oxide coating is depleted. Thus you have a mess---expensive, unsafe water the effects of which are going to redound for generations.
The storm water aspects of things get really hairy, because the problem is the combined (storm and sanitary) sewer system here (and in many larger cities) which gets overwhelmed with the stronger/more localized rain patterns. When the rain is locally heavy, it overwhelms the combined system leading to flooded basements AND spillage of untreated sewage into the Detroit River/Lake St. Clair. All the pavement in the city of Detroit and surrounding areas contributes to the problem--we've got pretty good soil to handle it (nice black dirt) but if it's covered up with asphalt/concrete, the water has to go somewhere. The churches in the city of Detroit are in a particular pickle, as they are assessed for their sqft of parking area and there can be charges of 10s of thousands to account for it.
vacerator
Well-known member
No point heating 40 gallons ofwater
above 130f. for us two. Wsaher has a heater, and I use steam usually for large loads. Anti-bacterial for dishwasher has a final rinse temp. dealy. If dishes have sat a few days, I also use steam option. Average twice weekly run. Probably why our water heater has lasted since 2002, knock wood.
above 130f. for us two. Wsaher has a heater, and I use steam usually for large loads. Anti-bacterial for dishwasher has a final rinse temp. dealy. If dishes have sat a few days, I also use steam option. Average twice weekly run. Probably why our water heater has lasted since 2002, knock wood.
Just over 60°C
Or about 145 in that weird system.
I also use TSP in the dishwasher and washer and double rinse all clothes.
They come out really clean.
I am not comfortable going higher than this because some of the plastic pipes in our house are from the early 1980s and that was a very bad era.
Or about 145 in that weird system.
I also use TSP in the dishwasher and washer and double rinse all clothes.
They come out really clean.
I am not comfortable going higher than this because some of the plastic pipes in our house are from the early 1980s and that was a very bad era.
A lot of good info here. Interesting!
At my house, there's one electric water heater for the entire building. It has to do everything. I have it set for 165°F. That helps with getting my clothes clean and dishes clean. It also requires less hot water to be used while showering, since you dilute it with more cold water. This reduces chances of running out of hot water; especially when washing clothes and then immediately getting in the shower. To help with energy saving, the tank has additional insulation around it (from previous owner). Also I have no kids or elderly staying here to worry about scalding injuries.
At my workshop, the only uses of hot water are hand washing, and pre-heated water for the pressure washer. That one is set at about 125°F so that I only have to turn on the one HOT tap, for perfect hand-washing temperature LOL!
The pressure washer has a 27.5 KW on-demand heating system which further heats the water, so the 125° domestic water doesn't impair my ability to clean machinery.
There is no kitchen or laundry at the workshop so no need for sanitizing hot water.
At my house, there's one electric water heater for the entire building. It has to do everything. I have it set for 165°F. That helps with getting my clothes clean and dishes clean. It also requires less hot water to be used while showering, since you dilute it with more cold water. This reduces chances of running out of hot water; especially when washing clothes and then immediately getting in the shower. To help with energy saving, the tank has additional insulation around it (from previous owner). Also I have no kids or elderly staying here to worry about scalding injuries.
At my workshop, the only uses of hot water are hand washing, and pre-heated water for the pressure washer. That one is set at about 125°F so that I only have to turn on the one HOT tap, for perfect hand-washing temperature LOL!
The pressure washer has a 27.5 KW on-demand heating system which further heats the water, so the 125° domestic water doesn't impair my ability to clean machinery.
There is no kitchen or laundry at the workshop so no need for sanitizing hot water.
perc-o-prince
Well-known member
has potential to damage inlet/mixing valves that involve....
Amen, Glenn. When Rich's grandfather built this house he put in a boiler that was about 5' high, 2' wide and 5' long (forced hot-water for heating). Why? That's what he put in the auto-repair garage he had up the street so he bought a second one for the house. The water was WAY too hot as it was "boiler temp" and gaskets were hardening in faucets. After he passed and we bought the house, we went to a regular boiler with an added zone for a hot water tank. It's generally set about 120-125F but Rich raises it when he's gonna treat himself to a bath.
That said, we need to have the thermostat on the hot water holding tank/heater checked as the water seems too hot with the knob at the usual setting. It was replaced a few years after the system was installed and the tech said he replaces them a lot.
Chuck
Amen, Glenn. When Rich's grandfather built this house he put in a boiler that was about 5' high, 2' wide and 5' long (forced hot-water for heating). Why? That's what he put in the auto-repair garage he had up the street so he bought a second one for the house. The water was WAY too hot as it was "boiler temp" and gaskets were hardening in faucets. After he passed and we bought the house, we went to a regular boiler with an added zone for a hot water tank. It's generally set about 120-125F but Rich raises it when he's gonna treat himself to a bath.
That said, we need to have the thermostat on the hot water holding tank/heater checked as the water seems too hot with the knob at the usual setting. It was replaced a few years after the system was installed and the tech said he replaces them a lot.
Chuck
Maximum allowed by heater's thermostat, minus half millimeter.
and I NEVER connect my washers "hot to hot, cold to cold". Instead, I have a Y-mixing hose and I set the temperature on the faucet, just to fool the ATC.
When I want a hot wash I really mean it.
The problem is, my tank is only 60 gallons, so when I do laundry in the winter, I usually have two washers with super hot water, the third with warm (more on the hot side), a fourth that is the Eco nazi calls hot (AKA almost filling the washer with ice cubes, so I have to split my laundry day in two and wait for the tank to recover.
Honestly, If I could, I'd install two other heaters only to have an endless supply of hot water, just in case I miracle happens and I have loads of whites for all my 24 washers exactly at the same time.
And a tankless heater... For god's sake, NEVER again in my life.
and I NEVER connect my washers "hot to hot, cold to cold". Instead, I have a Y-mixing hose and I set the temperature on the faucet, just to fool the ATC.
When I want a hot wash I really mean it.
The problem is, my tank is only 60 gallons, so when I do laundry in the winter, I usually have two washers with super hot water, the third with warm (more on the hot side), a fourth that is the Eco nazi calls hot (AKA almost filling the washer with ice cubes, so I have to split my laundry day in two and wait for the tank to recover.
Honestly, If I could, I'd install two other heaters only to have an endless supply of hot water, just in case I miracle happens and I have loads of whites for all my 24 washers exactly at the same time.
And a tankless heater... For god's sake, NEVER again in my life.
We have a Rinnai gas tankless water heater, it defaults to 120 degrees F. Which is fine, the dishwasher and clothes washer heat the water hotter when they run, so no need to be set higher.
50 gallon gas water heater and the hot water at the tap is 120f with the thermostat set at "HOT".
Honeywell thermostat has these settings - WARM, HOT, A, B, C, D, VERY HOT.
I find that temperature quite adequate for clothes washing and dish washing.
Very little cold water is needed to temper the hot water for my showers.
Honeywell thermostat has these settings - WARM, HOT, A, B, C, D, VERY HOT.
I find that temperature quite adequate for clothes washing and dish washing.
Very little cold water is needed to temper the hot water for my showers.
145F year round.
Problem solved
Came home and went to wash hands noticing hot water was no longer scalding temperature out of the taps. Others report there was a flurry of activity earlier in day in basements which implies boiler was sorted.
Oh well, guess will have to find another way to do "boil washing". *LOL*
Came home and went to wash hands noticing hot water was no longer scalding temperature out of the taps. Others report there was a flurry of activity earlier in day in basements which implies boiler was sorted.
Oh well, guess will have to find another way to do "boil washing". *LOL*
Mine's set at 60ºC (140ºF) and there's a mix-down to 55ºC (131ºF) after the tank, which is a thermostatic valve, similar to what you'd have in your shower, that ads a second step to prevent scald risks. The solar regs require that + thermostatic showers etc.
Water heating's indirect, so there's a large, insulated tank with a heat exchange coil from the gas boiler. When the thermostat 'calls' for heat, the gas boiler switches to rapid heat mode - a diverter valve operates and a pump starts for the hot water circuit, the boiler then cranks up the temperature to around 85ºC (185ºF) and that water is circulated through the heat exchange coils in the tank until the set point is reached. It then goes back to heating radiators again, at about 60ºC.
The gas boiler modulates and condenses, so basically you've a continuous Δt calculation - temperature output is measured and temperature returned is measured and as the heat absorption of the circuit goes up/down the heat input goes up/down to match. the gas flame is modulated down to match. So it will heat the water or radiators pretty efficiently. So, if the hot water cylinder is cold and is absorbing lots of heat, it will really crank up the gas flames.
At some stage, I will probably add a heat pump, but I need to do a fairly big retrofit of the house to achieve that as I'd need to replace a lot of late 70s plumbing and I don't fancy doing that until I want to do a major redecoration job. Also, want to see what the grant / tax incentives are. If I get the right deal, I might do it.
Also we're starting to see more high-temperature hydronic output heat pumps appearing. Those are suitable to basically replace the gas boiler directly. Low temp systems require a deep retrofit of the house as all the radiators are designed to run at about 60-70ºC, not the low temps that some of those heat pump systems output.
The various probes go into 'pockets' on the tank, so the solar heating and gas heating controls can monitor the temp at two points.
There's also a second coil from the solar panels and a priority system to ensure that the gas heating is only used if there's insufficient sun.
There's also an electric heater in the tank as a back up, but that's basically never used. It's really just a back up i case the gas boiler went down.
The tank stores 500 litres (132 US gallons)
@Laundress: Miele is usually ok with up to 85ºC, you are only up at 82ºC. If the pipes are soft, it's likely the hot water was >85ºC at some stage. Also if water / steam shot out of the drawer, it sounds like your water system may have a pressure relief issue! Is there steam shooting out of the taps?
Probably worth getting a plumber to check those thermostats!!!
It should be OK, but in general if you get close to boiling water, some of the internals may not like it, particularly the diverter valves in the water path selectors etc etc, but I'd be surprised if they were particularly offended by anything short of 95ºC - the machine itself (beyond the drawer) is quite happy to deal with near boiling water.
My grandmother used to have a 1920s hot water system that used direct-heat from a fireplace in the kitchen, as well as an later electric heater in the tank. Water was hot often hot enough to make tea. That thing destroyed a modern dishwasher, yet her old Electrolux washing machine never had any issues with it.
Hot and Cold fill washing machines were pretty standard here until the early 90s. In fact, most houses still have hot and cold connection points for them. I think, because they were less common on the continent, they just stopped producing special versions, particularly as water consumption levels dropped and it probably didn't make much difference anyway. The machines still had the same 230V supply and fairly beefy internal heaters, whether or not they'd hot fill or not.[this post was last edited: 12/9/2020-19:29]
Water heating's indirect, so there's a large, insulated tank with a heat exchange coil from the gas boiler. When the thermostat 'calls' for heat, the gas boiler switches to rapid heat mode - a diverter valve operates and a pump starts for the hot water circuit, the boiler then cranks up the temperature to around 85ºC (185ºF) and that water is circulated through the heat exchange coils in the tank until the set point is reached. It then goes back to heating radiators again, at about 60ºC.
The gas boiler modulates and condenses, so basically you've a continuous Δt calculation - temperature output is measured and temperature returned is measured and as the heat absorption of the circuit goes up/down the heat input goes up/down to match. the gas flame is modulated down to match. So it will heat the water or radiators pretty efficiently. So, if the hot water cylinder is cold and is absorbing lots of heat, it will really crank up the gas flames.
At some stage, I will probably add a heat pump, but I need to do a fairly big retrofit of the house to achieve that as I'd need to replace a lot of late 70s plumbing and I don't fancy doing that until I want to do a major redecoration job. Also, want to see what the grant / tax incentives are. If I get the right deal, I might do it.
Also we're starting to see more high-temperature hydronic output heat pumps appearing. Those are suitable to basically replace the gas boiler directly. Low temp systems require a deep retrofit of the house as all the radiators are designed to run at about 60-70ºC, not the low temps that some of those heat pump systems output.
The various probes go into 'pockets' on the tank, so the solar heating and gas heating controls can monitor the temp at two points.
There's also a second coil from the solar panels and a priority system to ensure that the gas heating is only used if there's insufficient sun.
There's also an electric heater in the tank as a back up, but that's basically never used. It's really just a back up i case the gas boiler went down.
The tank stores 500 litres (132 US gallons)
@Laundress: Miele is usually ok with up to 85ºC, you are only up at 82ºC. If the pipes are soft, it's likely the hot water was >85ºC at some stage. Also if water / steam shot out of the drawer, it sounds like your water system may have a pressure relief issue! Is there steam shooting out of the taps?
Probably worth getting a plumber to check those thermostats!!!
It should be OK, but in general if you get close to boiling water, some of the internals may not like it, particularly the diverter valves in the water path selectors etc etc, but I'd be surprised if they were particularly offended by anything short of 95ºC - the machine itself (beyond the drawer) is quite happy to deal with near boiling water.
My grandmother used to have a 1920s hot water system that used direct-heat from a fireplace in the kitchen, as well as an later electric heater in the tank. Water was hot often hot enough to make tea. That thing destroyed a modern dishwasher, yet her old Electrolux washing machine never had any issues with it.
Hot and Cold fill washing machines were pretty standard here until the early 90s. In fact, most houses still have hot and cold connection points for them. I think, because they were less common on the continent, they just stopped producing special versions, particularly as water consumption levels dropped and it probably didn't make much difference anyway. The machines still had the same 230V supply and fairly beefy internal heaters, whether or not they'd hot fill or not.[this post was last edited: 12/9/2020-19:29]
