What Temperature Is Your Tap Hot Water?

[launderess]

Thanks for all kind wishes and concerns.

Turns out issue was pretty much what one suspected; boiler was out of whack and situation was addressed.

Every boiler for hot water or steam has a "high/low" differential setting that keeps water from getting too hot or cold. Apparently the high limit failed or was out of kilter allowing water in boiler to get far hotter than it should. Thus even with a tempering or mixing valve we were still getting tap hot water at scalding temps because there just wasn't enough cold water to overcome the super heated coming out of boiler.

There are various mixing/tempering systems, some mechanical and others electronic. IIRC the electronic versions have more leeway in controlling final water temp because they can be set to automatically adjust hot and cold intake to produce final water temp within a certain range. The mechanical or others have to be manually set and or adjusted.

Miele solenoids and hot water...

Yes, looking at them online Miele states their water intake valves are rated for 85 degrees C. But as both triple and single intake valves for my washer are NLA from Miele USA am not keen to test those limits. *LOL*

 

[iej]

Scary! Glad it didn't do any serious damage.

Surprising that it didn't trip a secondary failsafe thermal cutout at that kind of temperature. Usually they have a simple thermal switch somewhere as backup, should the electronics ever go nuts.

 

[Marky_Mark]

What temperature is your hot water now, Launderess?

 

[launderess]

Don't know what sort of system is used, was only laying out what is out there as also noted in above YT video. We have some very old housing stock in NYC and not all of it is anywhere near modern when it comes to HVAC.

Case in point plenty of buildings have same boilers that were installed when they went up early as late 1800's through early 1900's (coal fired), and late as 1960's or 1970's (oil fired). Coal was swapped out for oil and possibly duel fuel (oil and gas), while many oil fired boilers also are same. But in many cases owners just keep the old boilers going owing to expense and bother of putting in new. As such heating systems are pretty much what they were when originally installed.

It is rather odd why only a handful of persons noticed much less bothered to speak up about super hot water coming from taps. One of course didn't, but obviously someone did (and took their time about it), since situation finally was addressed.

Haven't bothered taking temp of hot water yet, may do so when doing washing up after dinner. Suppose things are back down to the usual 150F to 160F we get this time of year when boiler is making steam for heat.

 

[ozzie908]

We had water heated by a fire

Many moons ago and in the winter when the fire was lit all day the water would get so hot, You would hear it banging in the expansion pipes on its way to the cold water tank. If you did not use much hot water in the evening before going to bed you had to run off gallons of hot water to quiet it all down. Such a waste. Sadly there were no radiators connected it was something I had thought of doing but never did.

Austin

 

[sudsmaster]

Easy answer:

HOT

 

[launderess]

@R44

That is one of the huge drawbacks of solid fuel for heating, cooking, etc... Difficulty in controlling the fire.

Coal and coke fueled fires don't truly go out. One can bank them or use dampers to lessen air intake and thus reduce heat output, but it isn't the same as say with gas, electric or oil where once heat is off, it is just that.

Recall one UK member would say his grandmother would rush to get the washing or bath tub when her husband was going to bleed down excess hot water that build up in the range boiler. Practical woman that she was couldn't see "wasting" all that good hot water.

This lack of sure control over coal/solid fuel fires was one of reasons so many homes, businesses and others had their boilers converted over to oil or gas soon as it became available. It is shocking when you look at how fast coal use began to go out post WWII for home, commercial and industrial use as places switched to oil or gas. Mostly oil.....

Beauty of oil or gas fired boilers/heating was that it allowed full automatic control of heat. So people didn't have to wake up to a freezing cold house, go down into basements or kitchen range (where coal fire had been banked for night), stoke the fire then wait for heat.

From about 1920's until post WWII years there were various devices and systems that claimed to give "automatic" heating with coal. Some were good, others not so much, none could beat oil or gas for heating. Getting rid of coal also removed tons of infrastructure from buildings (coal storage, bins for moving the stuff and taking away ashes, etc...).

 

[kenwashesmonday]

The house I grew up in had it's original 1927 Thatcher coal fired steam boiler that was converted to oil circa 1939 with a Timken rotary oil burner.  It had a coil to heat the hot tap water built in, and that water sure was hot!  One downside was that if someone took a very long hot shower in the summertime, the steam heat would come up.

 

 

 

[tomturbomatic]

Ken, would any great hot water draw cause that, like filling the washing machine with hot water, or did it depend on a certain set of circumstances like rate of flow and time?

 

[kenwashesmonday]

It was a long time ago, but I don't remember a large hot load in the GE Filter Flo being a problem, just when someone took a super long shower.

 

When hot water was called for, the oil burner would cycle on and off to maintain hot water.  If this happened long enough to make steam in the large cast-iron boiler, the heat would come up.  

 

It may not have been a very efficient system, but it was quite trouble-free for it's age.  The oil company convinced my dad to replace the boiler circa 1980, and the new POS boiler lasted 8 years.

 

[iej]

@laundress: set & forget will always be preferable to inability to control temperature and sweeping ashes!

Also from a public health point of view, solid fuel in cities, but even in any reasonable sized town, is very problematic if it’s in widespread use.

We were relatively late with natural gas. There was no source of it in Ireland until the mid 1970s when we stuck gas wells off the south coast and distribution piping was rolled out, mostly in the 80s and into the 90s. So the pressure jet fired oil boiler was very much a feature of suburbia. Every house built from the 1950s onwards has a boiler house and it would have been inhabited by a compact washing machine sized boiler, rumbling away. There are still plenty of them around, particularly in rural areas, but they’re largely gone in most towns and suburbs.

Manufactured town gas was around since the industrial revolution, but it wasn’t used much for central heating as it was even more expensive than electricity. So mostly it was only used for cooking.

You’d encounter a lot of LPG, usually bulk tank stored and delivered by tanker, in rural areas. Calor, FloGas and I think one other company seem to have that market more or less to themselves.

Heat pumps are the order of the day now though!

Oil boilers are gone here from 2022 and gas boilers form 2025 for new installation.

The building regs already basically mandate ultra high efficiency homes, so it’s all about heat recovery ventilation, triple glazing, high insulation levels & heat pumps.

I guess though it’ll be a long time before they’re gone entirely, considering how long boilers tend to hang around.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Friends lived in a house in the 50s that had originally had a coal furnace. There was a room in the basement with coal dust on the walls that was the coal bin and going across the floor to the furnace was a 12 foot track that had been part of the automatic stoker which had a spiral, similar to that seen in the Bendix automatic dispenser for soap or softener, and it was triggered by a wall-mounted thermostat to move coal from the bin to the furnace without human intervention, but the care and feeding of a coal furnace was a labor intensive. I remember ads in shelter magazines from the 1940s for devices that automated coal furnaces, but I don't think that there was any automated way of dealing with ashes and clinkers in the grates.  Those aspects were never shown in the slick ads for coal furnaces.

 

Also down in that basement was the Bendix Automatic Home Laundry. 

 

[thomasortega]

Ok, there's a tankless heater I'd consider...

My landlord has a RUUD tankless? heater abandoned in the front house basement.

That thing is simply beautiful, but needs a good cleanup, a restoration and of course a good inspection just to be on the safe side.

He says the last time it was used was in 2016, when the inspector recommended him to update the water heaters because those weren't "energy efficient". There were actually two of those (one in the garage, my house, back unit) and one in the basement, front house, that stills there.

The thing is, I hate tankless heaters but that heater is breathtaking so beautiful it is. It definitely has over 100 years and was probably the original heater installed when both houses were built.

It's black with some golden details, originally coal? but it's now gas. It looks like a tank, but has a "french door" and i can see there's a coil inside right above the burner instead of the tank.

 

[launderess]

Ruud Instant Automatic Water Heaters

Were invented by a Norwegian man named.... yes, you guessed it Edwin Ruud who was working in Pennsylvania after immigrating to this country.

Piped natural gas was long available in some urban areas (it was used for gas lighting among other things), so Mr. Ruud put it to work in his instant water heater. They never ran on coal.

https://blog.sense.com/how-americans-got-into-hot-water/

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?51701_9



https://levcobuilders.com/tankless-point-of-use-gas-water-heaters/

There were still a surprising number of those old Ruud water heaters still in operation well into 1990's. Many people move into a house they've just bought and upon finding the old thing first thought is to give it the heave. Then either via research or someone who knows what's what clues them in and the thing ends up staying.

 

[sudsmaster]

When I was a kid we lived in a home in New England that had oil fired heat, and I think also oil fired hot water. As I understand it, the water heater was integral with the gravity air heating system. I always steered clear of the big green monster in the basement, having been warned to leave it be numerous times. Out here in California, all the water heaters have been natural gas fired, as well as the heating systems. The heating systems as such have either been gas wall or space heaters. But for the last 23 years I've enjoyed living in a place with forced air gas fired heating. The unit is in the crawl space and other than yearly replacement of the air filters upstairs, rarely if ever needs attention. After the first year or so, I replaced the manual thermostat with a fully automatic Lux 1500, which has worked great over the years.

 

[thomasortega]

WOW, I've just seen on that other thread a picture of the exact heater that is in the basement.

It's a Ruud "No. 95", EXACTLY like this that dhman posted years ago. (His picture)

 

[thomasortega]

SOmehow (after reading all comments on both threads) I believe that if that heater is in good conditions (of course, properly inspected) it may be an awesome and reliable source of hot water.

My landlord disconnected it because the city inspector mentioned it's not "that" efficient.

Knowing California and the BS Eco-nazi thing, I'm almost 100% sure this beast is actually way more efficient than that crappy modern tank that saves gas (but I always run out of hot water when doing laundry.

And restoring such old beauty sounds like a very fun project. It's actually in great condition (better than the picture shown) One of the parts was replaced and it's visibly modern, I believe it's a safety thermal valve to shut the pilot gas off in case the flame goes out.

Honestly, I wish I could rent the front house. It has so many treasures hidden in it, lovely!

Not to mention the collection of furnaces.... Octopuss, then 3 floor furnaces, then wall furnaces... Of course, they were abandoned when newer technologies came but the landlord didn't bother about removing the old ones.

The only thing there that of course I'd never use (but I'd love to restore it and have it fully operational) is the Kenmore incinerator that looks like from the 50's. According to the landlord it was somewhat new and the gas company simply disconnected it and put a cap on the gas valve when incinerators were banned.

 

[thomasortega]

Some months ago my landlord mentioned that the tenant asked him if it was possible to remodel the bathroom because it was "outdated".

Hell no. Thank God my landlord thinks exactly the same. It needs SOME TLC, very light, maybe replace a small number of cracked tiles, a good detailing, eventually replace the fixtures, put back the sitz bath that was removed, replace the modern toiled by a modern toilet and sink cabinet by "modern" ones that match or at least come very close to the original and bring it back to as original as possible.

Imagine if I restore all the floor heaters (3) plus the existing wall heaters (3) and bring the gravity furnace back to life (more difficult). Of course nobody needs that but, I could have a super heating system that can heat up the whole house in seconds LOL. (I know it's a stupid idea, but having all those super vintage applainces fully restored and running, would be awesome!

I wish I had more access to that house, that's why I dream about someday renting it. It has a fallout shelter that I'm completely fascinated with. I'm literally living on top a a piece of American history.

Kinda useless because it's tiny and wet, actually a bit scary and claustrophobic, but imagine that shelter fully restored, how cute it would be. and, with proper ventilation, it can actually be an additional storage space.

And making things better, it has a MONSTER basement (actually bigger than the house itself), it's probably bigger than Revinkevin's garage. I would simply love the extra space to have 3x more machines. Basements are extremely rare in LA.

Sad news is... the tenant living there (actually a lovely person) lives there for over 10 years and has absolutely no plans to move out.

 

[launderess]

When properly adjusted those Ruud instant water heaters gave off tap water between 140F to 150F. There were however all sorts of clever ways they were installed.

For places still with a tank attached to coal, oil or whatever range water could be preheated in that device, then sent down to the Ruud for further heating when needed. This helped overcome the main issue with all instant water heaters, dealing with incoming tap water that was too cold for heating up to proper temperature based upon flow rates.

Above would make sense during colder times of year (or certain climates) allowing the range (which would be have a fire going anyway) to provide "free" preheating of water lessened the work of Ruud unit.

Believe also there were ways to run these Ruud heaters into a storage tank with some sort of circulation system. This would address need of high demand for hot water in excess of what one Ruud unit could provide.

Also think these units could be run in tandem (like modern instant water heaters) which again addresses issues of cold to very tap water being brought up to proper "hot" temperature.

No, by modern standards these old Ruud units are't energy efficient. But that is the first comment all sort of so called professionals (plumbers, inspectors, etc..) make about any "old" bit of equipment. Faced with something they know little to nothing about, and don't want to take time to understand, their instant reaction is to rip the thing out and replace with new. Of course for a plumber or some others there is money to be made which surely factors into that advice.

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/179223/antique-heater

 

[iej]

My grandmother’s hot water system

I remember my grandmother’s hot water system in rural Ireland. There was a Waterford Stanley range, which contained a hot water boiler that provided hot water for the hot taps and had a second boiler that provided radiator heating water.

They’re basically the Irish counterpart to AGA and it had, if I remember correctly 3 ovens.

It burnt kerosene, using a metal wick burner, rather than a pressure jet and it was basically never switched off, just turned down.

There was a large control valve box, in beige enamel, on the wall near by and I think the oil fed in by gravity. Those systems ran constantly and probably most of the year, given the climate here.

There was no sound or odour of kerosine or anything like that. It just ran in the background 24/7 for months at a time. I remember her getting someone to clean it out - they’d basically dismantle the whole range, clean, vacuum and brush out ash and soot, replace wicks and set it back going again.

She didn’t really use it for cooking very much and had a separate gas stove for that. It just sat in the dining/living room area, often with maybe a kettle or some slow cooking item like stock or a roast perhaps. I just remember any serious coming was done on “the gas” though.

It kept the house that kinda toasty warm rural kitchen vibe at all times. She’d have tea towels airing above it and the whole kitchen was flagstone floor.

Other than that it had a sofa, arm chairs, a spinning wheel, an valve antique radio still tuned to RTE Radio 1 (Radio Éireann) or BBC Radio 4 both on medium wave or long wave (a very old AM band) and she has a TV on a high up console off to the side which was probably 1970s era as it was wooden framed colour.

You walked from there straight through to a kitchen and utility where she had a fairly modern kitchen and a laundry room off to the side which had a washer and dryer, which was an old Siemens washing machine and a 1970s Hoover Tumble Dryer Deluxe, which were very similar to Maytag Halo of Heat, as Hoover was owned by them at the time.

memories ...

Cue semi-depressing mid-1980 Irish nostalgia laden power company advert, featuring someone’s granny (or mother who appears to be in her mid 70s with a 20 something son .. but it ads to the nostalgic vibe) and a lot of 1980s random appliances lol.
post was last edited: 12/12/2020-21:38]