Whirlpool Accuses Samsung & LG Of Dumping Washers
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Given the quality of some of the machines WP has sold in the last decade, they could be accused of dumping also except they were dumping washers on the people that bought them. Granted, it's many years later, but the very basic engineering of the SQ FL is brilliant in so many ways that the Duet could have been. For example, after the wash drains, the SQ opens the cold water valve so that a small flow of water flushes suds out of the machine to keep it from choking on suds when it goes into the first spin. The Bendix and Westinghouse did this and also flushed some of the suds out of the load, but in this day and time, we are not going to see water used in that quantity for that purpose again. Even my Mieles don't do something like this although they have their own way of coping succesfully with this situation and remain the best I have ever used. When the SQ goes into each pulse spin, the pump shuts off to prevent air locking and comes back on to strongly pump out a gush of water when the tub coasts back to the distribution spin speed which is fast enough to keep the load stuck to the cylinder so that it does not have to waste time distributing for the next spin. It's not perfect; what is down here? If it does not distribute properly, you can miss a whole spin sequence between water changes, but it is so much much better than the Duet, which WP had made by a company that had been making front loaders for a long time, but a company which Louis told us was not known for making high quality washing machines. If WP had made better machines, they would not have to worry about competition from Samsung & LG. The Duet choked on almost every first attempt at spin and, even when perfectly balanced, would coast to a stop while the pump struggled to pump out the water. If the machine had ramped up to spin more gradually, like my W1986 does, it might not have had to deal with the surge of water that tripped the flood switch every first time it tried to spin. If it had kept the load plastered to the sides of the cylinder instead of stopping and letting them fall, it could have been a better performing washer and completed loads in less time.
It's almost analogous to the situation in which President Obama finds himself because instead of doing the right thing and going after the financiers, he half-stepped and refused to clean house because he owed them so much and had their people in his inner circles helping him make unwise, compromised decisions. Now, Wall Street hates the Democrats anyway, including the President, because of the small steps they are trying to take to regulate excesses whereas if the financiers had been investigated and prosecuted instead of coddled, they might not be in the same powerful position they are in now to cause the President worry about being elected to a second term, the economy might be better and people would not have the suspicion that the President did not do all he could have done to fix things. Had WP demanded a first rate tumbler washer instead of settling for a cheaper machine, they could have assumed the top position with front loaders and brands like LG & Samsung would not be competition on the same rung of the ladder.
Sorry to inject politics into this, but mediocrity is mediocrity anywhere it exists.
It's almost analogous to the situation in which President Obama finds himself because instead of doing the right thing and going after the financiers, he half-stepped and refused to clean house because he owed them so much and had their people in his inner circles helping him make unwise, compromised decisions. Now, Wall Street hates the Democrats anyway, including the President, because of the small steps they are trying to take to regulate excesses whereas if the financiers had been investigated and prosecuted instead of coddled, they might not be in the same powerful position they are in now to cause the President worry about being elected to a second term, the economy might be better and people would not have the suspicion that the President did not do all he could have done to fix things. Had WP demanded a first rate tumbler washer instead of settling for a cheaper machine, they could have assumed the top position with front loaders and brands like LG & Samsung would not be competition on the same rung of the ladder.
Sorry to inject politics into this, but mediocrity is mediocrity anywhere it exists.
toploader1984
Well-known member
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lg
wait a minute....... WTF!??? i have a whirlpool refrigerator that is made in MEXICO..... i guess whirlpool is calling the kettle black?
wait a minute....... WTF!??? i have a whirlpool refrigerator that is made in MEXICO..... i guess whirlpool is calling the kettle black?
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
.
I have a Whirlpool/Maytag washer that was made in Germany, and what about those Mexico made Whirlpools?
Someone just wants to make their monopoly stronger.,
I have a Whirlpool/Maytag washer that was made in Germany, and what about those Mexico made Whirlpools?
Someone just wants to make their monopoly stronger.,
I.M.H.O PLEASE...
I've seen a lot of videos on youtube where Whirlpool Duet washers have failed anywhere between 14 months to a few short years and the reasons for those failures are downright inexcusable. Broken spiders due to corrosion, worn out bearings, electronic failures and obviously poor quality control.
Their top loaders really don't fare much better, leaving residue on the clothing, the seals failing, flooding the laundry room and more electronic failures. GE isn't faring much better either.
Of course, this is just from youtube videos. Search the web for reviews on their machines and there are tons of complaints. If you ran WCI and you sold 10 million machines a year, but 0.1 percent of those machines were lemons, that's still a pretty good success rate, right? Well, still that's 10,000 bum machines which went out the door. That's a potential for 10,000 unhappy and impatient customers. Even then, 1,000 negative reviews on the net make for the potential loss of millions of dollars of sales!
Whirlpool is going about this the wrong way. If they want to put Samsung and LG out of business, the only solution is to stop building crap and take a page right out of Alliance laundry's book and learn how to build a machine properly. Heck, even if Whirlpool just rebadged a SQ machine and put some fancy electronics in it, that would be better than what they are selling now.
Miele machines are known for their quality because their QA department tests for 10,000 cycles before they go out the door. I think Alliance tests for 25,000 cycles. (I'm not sure) ... What does Whirlpool do? Do they even care?
The biggest problem with corporate America has nothing to do with the Republicans or the Democrats and frankly I couldn't give a damn because I'm not an American.
The problem is that Quality doesn't make a company money, selling lots of machines makes a company money.
In other words, there's no business case for building a reliable machine, at least in the eyes of the executive. Maytag executives learned this horrible lesson and it seems that WCI is too big to fail for their executives to learn this lesson either.
Another part of the problem is that if you go to any big box store, you'll always see WCI machines (Whirlpool, Maytag, etc) there but rarely ever Speed Queen. In my part of the world, I practically had to beg for a Huebsch machine. Since WCI is so big, they can afford to build crappy machines, because who else are you going to? How is the consumer going to know that SQ is much better if they just want it NOW and they want it at the cheapest price?
The other problem is with the consumer. A consumer walks into a big box store and they want to spend as little money as possible. They shop around and find the cheapest front loader than can find. They may spend a bit extra if they know it has some additional features the others don't have.
For example, Samsung and LG rely very heavily on marketing gimmicks like "Powerfoam" and "VRT" to sell their machines, not to mention the half-million number of cycles that do this, that and the other thing. When a consumer looks at a SQ machine, how could they know what quality looks like under the hood? They just see the bland looking, utilitarian controls and immediately think "Bottom end".. Then they look at the price and get a perceived look of poor value for the money.
Whirlpool is trying to catch up, but they are being taught a very expensive lesson by the other manufacturers out there. Only when WCI starts learning the lessons that Maytag execs did, maybe they'll step back and realize that the only way to compete is to build a better machine.
I honestly believe that if you have a tub which is 4.4 cu.ft, it should be rated to hold 30 lbs of laundry... not 20. I'm alarmed to see domestic washers with 5.0 cu.ft tubs when there are commercial washers which are nearly 3x the size with the same (Or similar) tub capacity and they weigh hundreds of pounds more.
I'm sure there are people out there who have a WCI washer which is around 10 years old and it works fine, it always has and it'll probably last another 10 years before something goes wrong with it, but you rarely ever hear from those people. Maybe WCI isn't building the junk they used to. Time will tell.
I've seen a lot of videos on youtube where Whirlpool Duet washers have failed anywhere between 14 months to a few short years and the reasons for those failures are downright inexcusable. Broken spiders due to corrosion, worn out bearings, electronic failures and obviously poor quality control.
Their top loaders really don't fare much better, leaving residue on the clothing, the seals failing, flooding the laundry room and more electronic failures. GE isn't faring much better either.
Of course, this is just from youtube videos. Search the web for reviews on their machines and there are tons of complaints. If you ran WCI and you sold 10 million machines a year, but 0.1 percent of those machines were lemons, that's still a pretty good success rate, right? Well, still that's 10,000 bum machines which went out the door. That's a potential for 10,000 unhappy and impatient customers. Even then, 1,000 negative reviews on the net make for the potential loss of millions of dollars of sales!
Whirlpool is going about this the wrong way. If they want to put Samsung and LG out of business, the only solution is to stop building crap and take a page right out of Alliance laundry's book and learn how to build a machine properly. Heck, even if Whirlpool just rebadged a SQ machine and put some fancy electronics in it, that would be better than what they are selling now.
Miele machines are known for their quality because their QA department tests for 10,000 cycles before they go out the door. I think Alliance tests for 25,000 cycles. (I'm not sure) ... What does Whirlpool do? Do they even care?
The biggest problem with corporate America has nothing to do with the Republicans or the Democrats and frankly I couldn't give a damn because I'm not an American.
The problem is that Quality doesn't make a company money, selling lots of machines makes a company money.
In other words, there's no business case for building a reliable machine, at least in the eyes of the executive. Maytag executives learned this horrible lesson and it seems that WCI is too big to fail for their executives to learn this lesson either.
Another part of the problem is that if you go to any big box store, you'll always see WCI machines (Whirlpool, Maytag, etc) there but rarely ever Speed Queen. In my part of the world, I practically had to beg for a Huebsch machine. Since WCI is so big, they can afford to build crappy machines, because who else are you going to? How is the consumer going to know that SQ is much better if they just want it NOW and they want it at the cheapest price?
The other problem is with the consumer. A consumer walks into a big box store and they want to spend as little money as possible. They shop around and find the cheapest front loader than can find. They may spend a bit extra if they know it has some additional features the others don't have.
For example, Samsung and LG rely very heavily on marketing gimmicks like "Powerfoam" and "VRT" to sell their machines, not to mention the half-million number of cycles that do this, that and the other thing. When a consumer looks at a SQ machine, how could they know what quality looks like under the hood? They just see the bland looking, utilitarian controls and immediately think "Bottom end".. Then they look at the price and get a perceived look of poor value for the money.
Whirlpool is trying to catch up, but they are being taught a very expensive lesson by the other manufacturers out there. Only when WCI starts learning the lessons that Maytag execs did, maybe they'll step back and realize that the only way to compete is to build a better machine.
I honestly believe that if you have a tub which is 4.4 cu.ft, it should be rated to hold 30 lbs of laundry... not 20. I'm alarmed to see domestic washers with 5.0 cu.ft tubs when there are commercial washers which are nearly 3x the size with the same (Or similar) tub capacity and they weigh hundreds of pounds more.
I'm sure there are people out there who have a WCI washer which is around 10 years old and it works fine, it always has and it'll probably last another 10 years before something goes wrong with it, but you rarely ever hear from those people. Maybe WCI isn't building the junk they used to. Time will tell.
I just thought I should add in something else here..
A lot of executives today are building taught that short term profits are what matters.. Sell as much as you can no matter what the consequences.. Profits always come first, customer loyalty second.. there are lots of customers out there who will always buy your product at least once.
Nobody thinks about long term profits a company could make thirty years down the road. Nobody thinks about Brand Loyalty anymore when there are so many different brands on the market.
GM lost me as a customer because they sold me a vehicle that developed serious mechanical issues which could have been prevented had they designed it right the first time... or at least stood behind their product and said, "We made a mistake, we'll fix it and own up to it." .. instead they left me, their customer, out in the cold with thousands of dollars in repair bills which didn't need to be done, had it been designed properly the first time.
What they didn't realize at the time is that they lost me for life. I could have bought three or four GM products in my lifetime, but they'll only sell me one. I learned my lesson. I've owned my Hyundai for eight years now and I've had less problems with it in the entire time I've owned it than the three years I owned a GM product.
So, my next vehicle would most likely be another Hyundai.. This is what the executives should be thinking about.. what I'm not buying now, but what I will buy ten or fifteen years from now after my initial purchase.. and that's what counts.
When GM cries and says, "How come nobody is buying our cars?", maybe the first question they should be asking is, "Why are there so many Hyundais on the road?"
A lot of executives today are building taught that short term profits are what matters.. Sell as much as you can no matter what the consequences.. Profits always come first, customer loyalty second.. there are lots of customers out there who will always buy your product at least once.
Nobody thinks about long term profits a company could make thirty years down the road. Nobody thinks about Brand Loyalty anymore when there are so many different brands on the market.
GM lost me as a customer because they sold me a vehicle that developed serious mechanical issues which could have been prevented had they designed it right the first time... or at least stood behind their product and said, "We made a mistake, we'll fix it and own up to it." .. instead they left me, their customer, out in the cold with thousands of dollars in repair bills which didn't need to be done, had it been designed properly the first time.
What they didn't realize at the time is that they lost me for life. I could have bought three or four GM products in my lifetime, but they'll only sell me one. I learned my lesson. I've owned my Hyundai for eight years now and I've had less problems with it in the entire time I've owned it than the three years I owned a GM product.
So, my next vehicle would most likely be another Hyundai.. This is what the executives should be thinking about.. what I'm not buying now, but what I will buy ten or fifteen years from now after my initial purchase.. and that's what counts.
When GM cries and says, "How come nobody is buying our cars?", maybe the first question they should be asking is, "Why are there so many Hyundais on the road?"
Maybe WP could restart some production over in Newton Iowa, as a gesture of good faith and to insure their prominence in the market. If I lived in Iowa i sure as hell would not buy a rebadged Whirlpool even if i had to get a tub and a scrub board. alr
My suspicions
Well, I have no proof of my suspicions, but here are my two cents.
The Samsung / LG alleged appliance dumping in the US rings very familiar to me.
What happened to the US television manufacturing industry? HELLO!!!
TVs were dumped and dumped into the USA killing the ENTIRE manufacturing industry. Zenith (and others) fought and lost the battle. (As an aside, this hurt me a great deal as Zenith, Motorola, Admiral, Warwick and Wells-Gardner were all making TVs in Chicago. By the time I got out of school they were dead or dying).
Whirlpool is likely today's Zenith. I just wonder if ... much like the influx of foreign TVs in years past, these foreign (typically Korean or Chinese) appliance manufacturers have unique and tasty deals with the retailers that are hard or impossible for USA manufacturers to participate with.
Don't say that the quality of the USA product is so wretched. USA TVs DID PRODUCE a great picture and worked well. USA washers CLEAN CLOTHES and work well. Is the foreign stuff SO MUCH BETTER? In my opinion, NO. I believe the masses think that foreign brands are different, chic. And people buy tons of it because "it's not that old brand that my mother and grandmother owned." I really think that people who buy these foreign brands are a bit smug. The fact that they deviated from convention and bought a different, foreign brand somehow makes them smarter. Personally I cannot buy an appliance made outside of the USA when a reasonable equivalent is made here.
The problems that need to be fixed?
THE RETAILERS - who are eating up spicy deals from the foreign suppliers that mean bucks for their box-store but kill our jobs in the USA.
THE USA MANUFACTURER - who should meet and exceed every attribute of a foreign product and flaunt it. Fight the dumping.
THE CUSTOMER - who buys foreign blindly for its chic appeal. Who also buys foreign when USA factories supplying good jobs to their families and friends churn out a good equivalent.
I really blame the customer a lot for the influx of USA job-killing foreign appliances. Today's kids buying appliances don't seem to understand the value of 100 year old Whirlpool or GE support or the quality of Speed-Queen. USA appliances work. They work well. They keep your families in jobs.
Many of my job options died due to dumping. The USA retailers were a big cause in my opinion. However, had the USA customer been a bit more patriotic and bought a Zenith or Admiral etc, my job options would not have dried up as they did.
My rant is over.
Well, I have no proof of my suspicions, but here are my two cents.
The Samsung / LG alleged appliance dumping in the US rings very familiar to me.
What happened to the US television manufacturing industry? HELLO!!!
TVs were dumped and dumped into the USA killing the ENTIRE manufacturing industry. Zenith (and others) fought and lost the battle. (As an aside, this hurt me a great deal as Zenith, Motorola, Admiral, Warwick and Wells-Gardner were all making TVs in Chicago. By the time I got out of school they were dead or dying).
Whirlpool is likely today's Zenith. I just wonder if ... much like the influx of foreign TVs in years past, these foreign (typically Korean or Chinese) appliance manufacturers have unique and tasty deals with the retailers that are hard or impossible for USA manufacturers to participate with.
Don't say that the quality of the USA product is so wretched. USA TVs DID PRODUCE a great picture and worked well. USA washers CLEAN CLOTHES and work well. Is the foreign stuff SO MUCH BETTER? In my opinion, NO. I believe the masses think that foreign brands are different, chic. And people buy tons of it because "it's not that old brand that my mother and grandmother owned." I really think that people who buy these foreign brands are a bit smug. The fact that they deviated from convention and bought a different, foreign brand somehow makes them smarter. Personally I cannot buy an appliance made outside of the USA when a reasonable equivalent is made here.
The problems that need to be fixed?
THE RETAILERS - who are eating up spicy deals from the foreign suppliers that mean bucks for their box-store but kill our jobs in the USA.
THE USA MANUFACTURER - who should meet and exceed every attribute of a foreign product and flaunt it. Fight the dumping.
THE CUSTOMER - who buys foreign blindly for its chic appeal. Who also buys foreign when USA factories supplying good jobs to their families and friends churn out a good equivalent.
I really blame the customer a lot for the influx of USA job-killing foreign appliances. Today's kids buying appliances don't seem to understand the value of 100 year old Whirlpool or GE support or the quality of Speed-Queen. USA appliances work. They work well. They keep your families in jobs.
Many of my job options died due to dumping. The USA retailers were a big cause in my opinion. However, had the USA customer been a bit more patriotic and bought a Zenith or Admiral etc, my job options would not have dried up as they did.
My rant is over.
arbilab
Well-known member
Two things happened to business, at least in the US and probably everywhere since they all follow our precedents. One is, ethics went out the window. The other is, management used to rise through the ranks with an understanding of the product and the customer and an appreciation for the company's reputation.
Today, management waltzes in with an MBA and absolutely no concept of product or customer, only spreadsheets. And no loyalty to anything but this quarter's financial report. HR puts up posters about customer satisfaction but I guaran-dam-tee that's as far as it goes, posters.
Can't expect much but fancy brochures about useless features from a structure like that.
Little known story about dumping. Forgot where I read it, long time ago, heyday of VHS. Sears and Panasonic were accused by the Justice Department of a dumping/kickback scheme on VHS. Sears bought them at fair price but every year Panasonic kicked them back making the ultimate price of the product below what it cost to make and transport it. Definition of dumping. It was set to go to trial but suddenly and inexplicably dropped.
Here's another more current one. For years if not decades, Intel kicked back on Pentiums to Dell. For many recent quarters the kickback represented Dell's entire profit. The SEC rattled their cage for bogus bookkeeping and without admitting guilt Dell and Intel agreed to cease and desist. Did they really? Or did they just get more sly about the way they wrote it down?
Today, management waltzes in with an MBA and absolutely no concept of product or customer, only spreadsheets. And no loyalty to anything but this quarter's financial report. HR puts up posters about customer satisfaction but I guaran-dam-tee that's as far as it goes, posters.
Can't expect much but fancy brochures about useless features from a structure like that.
Little known story about dumping. Forgot where I read it, long time ago, heyday of VHS. Sears and Panasonic were accused by the Justice Department of a dumping/kickback scheme on VHS. Sears bought them at fair price but every year Panasonic kicked them back making the ultimate price of the product below what it cost to make and transport it. Definition of dumping. It was set to go to trial but suddenly and inexplicably dropped.
Here's another more current one. For years if not decades, Intel kicked back on Pentiums to Dell. For many recent quarters the kickback represented Dell's entire profit. The SEC rattled their cage for bogus bookkeeping and without admitting guilt Dell and Intel agreed to cease and desist. Did they really? Or did they just get more sly about the way they wrote it down?
firedome
Well-known member
I know for a fact
that dumping killed off much of the US steel industry... my own Dad was a corporate VP of Bethlehem Steel, at one time in the top 10 biggest companies in the US. They were killed by anti-competitive dumping by Euro, Indian and Asian steel companies, some of which had their plants re-built by the USA via the Marshall Plan. It's a common practice of low-wage countries to undercut prices long enough to gain the upper hand then when they've killed off enough competition raise prices again. It's happened time and again. WP needs to make a quality product in the US, price it and service it properly, be on a level playing field with price competition, and they will thrive.
On another note, is it general consensus then that SQ is the best US made washer at present? Are they still around? No dealers here I think. I'm more of a kitchen - d/w and range - guy, so am not up to speed on current laundry products so much. We may need to replace our daily driver washer soon.
that dumping killed off much of the US steel industry... my own Dad was a corporate VP of Bethlehem Steel, at one time in the top 10 biggest companies in the US. They were killed by anti-competitive dumping by Euro, Indian and Asian steel companies, some of which had their plants re-built by the USA via the Marshall Plan. It's a common practice of low-wage countries to undercut prices long enough to gain the upper hand then when they've killed off enough competition raise prices again. It's happened time and again. WP needs to make a quality product in the US, price it and service it properly, be on a level playing field with price competition, and they will thrive.
On another note, is it general consensus then that SQ is the best US made washer at present? Are they still around? No dealers here I think. I'm more of a kitchen - d/w and range - guy, so am not up to speed on current laundry products so much. We may need to replace our daily driver washer soon.
Paul, the WP washers I wrote about are not made in the USA. Rather than design & tool up to make a tumbler washer, they went shopping for a foreign company with experience in making tumbler washers to build it for them. They are not alone; GE did the same thing as did Maytag, partially, while it still existed. My slamming the Duet did not mean that US appliances don't work; it's not a US-made appliance. Buying one does not mean jobs for US factory workers. Even the parts to repair the various brands are not made here. They are made all over the world. Speed Queen makes a tumbler washer in the United States. When WP complains about dumping of tumbler washers, they are thinking sales, not manufacturing jobs.
laundromat
Well-known member
Bendix Westinghouse Frigidaire Norge
All but one of these manufacturers had their own front loading washers Bendix being the king for decades then Westinghouse and finaly, Norge.Other companies like Apex and Dexter had their own methods which were different but were,in my opinion great performing and dependable.Dexter is the only front loading washing machine manufacturer that was able to stay afloat all this time and bought the commercial line of Bendix laundry equipment.Dexter now makes a great line of commercial laundry equipment and backs them up.
I still believe that,had Proctor and Gamble not attempted to advertise their detergents (Dishwashing liquid, floor care products,bath soaps and hair care products included)by claiming "Oceans of suds" on the Tide boxes along with other detergents they made,consumers here in the continental U.S.would have been more confident in purchasing front loading washers and be quite a bit more educated on how to use and take care of them.Most of the Europeans I, myself, know and/or had met while in England,are qute a bit more familiar with how to use and take care of their front loading washers because they learned from their mistakes as well as the manufacturers learning the "bugs' that were showing up during the period where they went from the twin tub agitator units to the front loading, compact ,models.While there, I saw more front loaders then top loaders which was great for my intersts and so many different brands and features to choose from.
Because of our failing economy and just plane old greed, companies like Whirlpool and GE decided to play "hard ball" and move their manufacturing overseas putting thousands of American employees on unemployment.WCI ( Now known as Electrolux of Sweden)opened a huge plant in Agusta ,GA.where they make mostly front loading washers under many different brand names including Wascomat, Frigidaire, Crosley, kenmore and GE.They just began to make a new top loader (due to be on the market before February)members here may have different opinions on the new Frigidaire company and the way they "used to be" But, I think it's only fair for them to admit, as others here may disagree with me, our favorite old appliance manufacturer has certainly come a long way,don't you agree??
I like the SQs as well. They're built to last and do great getting clothes really clean and spun out well enough to dry clothes faster either on the line or in the dryer.They too are American made and come with the strongest warranty ever,3 years parts and labor.However, they're real costly and only available in "select dealerships" kind of the way FRIGIDAIRE was before they spread out to be carried at box stores like KMart.If you were an authoised dealer, you had to also be a service company AND, there was a quota you had to either meet or your ass was grass. No exceptions. That's one reason why a lot of the dealerships,when WCI took over, were furious to have to work on so many "piece of shit" appliances.They, as well as Maytag and Speed Queen got their reputation from being that pickey on who was to carry their quality products and who to avoid.
Now, it's way different. I know of many folks who've never heard of Speed Queen.However, they have heard of L.G., Frigidaire, Hoover and Electrolux.Most dealerships are going "belly up" and the box stores are taking advantage of it buying the big white goods at a steal and making larger margins to sell them.I recently saw Homo Depot selling an L.G. set for only $499 each!! I thought to myself that,if the competing brands and/or stores would have differnt brand front loading machines at that same price, a lot more people would be converting.
Just FYI
I was told yesterday that I will be released (discharged) this wednesday (1/4/12) from here. My neurologist is on vacation until that Tuesday. he'll be here to make the final decision on what procedures are going to be aranged,if any to follow up on my tumors.I am planning on moving to a condo in Hilo buy the bay.I'll keep you posted.
Happy New Year!!!!
All but one of these manufacturers had their own front loading washers Bendix being the king for decades then Westinghouse and finaly, Norge.Other companies like Apex and Dexter had their own methods which were different but were,in my opinion great performing and dependable.Dexter is the only front loading washing machine manufacturer that was able to stay afloat all this time and bought the commercial line of Bendix laundry equipment.Dexter now makes a great line of commercial laundry equipment and backs them up.
I still believe that,had Proctor and Gamble not attempted to advertise their detergents (Dishwashing liquid, floor care products,bath soaps and hair care products included)by claiming "Oceans of suds" on the Tide boxes along with other detergents they made,consumers here in the continental U.S.would have been more confident in purchasing front loading washers and be quite a bit more educated on how to use and take care of them.Most of the Europeans I, myself, know and/or had met while in England,are qute a bit more familiar with how to use and take care of their front loading washers because they learned from their mistakes as well as the manufacturers learning the "bugs' that were showing up during the period where they went from the twin tub agitator units to the front loading, compact ,models.While there, I saw more front loaders then top loaders which was great for my intersts and so many different brands and features to choose from.
Because of our failing economy and just plane old greed, companies like Whirlpool and GE decided to play "hard ball" and move their manufacturing overseas putting thousands of American employees on unemployment.WCI ( Now known as Electrolux of Sweden)opened a huge plant in Agusta ,GA.where they make mostly front loading washers under many different brand names including Wascomat, Frigidaire, Crosley, kenmore and GE.They just began to make a new top loader (due to be on the market before February)members here may have different opinions on the new Frigidaire company and the way they "used to be" But, I think it's only fair for them to admit, as others here may disagree with me, our favorite old appliance manufacturer has certainly come a long way,don't you agree??
I like the SQs as well. They're built to last and do great getting clothes really clean and spun out well enough to dry clothes faster either on the line or in the dryer.They too are American made and come with the strongest warranty ever,3 years parts and labor.However, they're real costly and only available in "select dealerships" kind of the way FRIGIDAIRE was before they spread out to be carried at box stores like KMart.If you were an authoised dealer, you had to also be a service company AND, there was a quota you had to either meet or your ass was grass. No exceptions. That's one reason why a lot of the dealerships,when WCI took over, were furious to have to work on so many "piece of shit" appliances.They, as well as Maytag and Speed Queen got their reputation from being that pickey on who was to carry their quality products and who to avoid.
Now, it's way different. I know of many folks who've never heard of Speed Queen.However, they have heard of L.G., Frigidaire, Hoover and Electrolux.Most dealerships are going "belly up" and the box stores are taking advantage of it buying the big white goods at a steal and making larger margins to sell them.I recently saw Homo Depot selling an L.G. set for only $499 each!! I thought to myself that,if the competing brands and/or stores would have differnt brand front loading machines at that same price, a lot more people would be converting.
Just FYI
I was told yesterday that I will be released (discharged) this wednesday (1/4/12) from here. My neurologist is on vacation until that Tuesday. he'll be here to make the final decision on what procedures are going to be aranged,if any to follow up on my tumors.I am planning on moving to a condo in Hilo buy the bay.I'll keep you posted.
Happy New Year!!!!
To PaulG
> What happened to the US television manufacturing industry? HELLO!!!
I agree. All of the manufacturing involving electronics was moved overseas due to the cost of labour. I find it ironic that Intel makes CPU's for computers in the USA, but all of the rest of the components are made usually somewhere in East Asia, like Taiwan.
This is a story we are going to see time and time again where manufacturing jobs are moving out of the US due to the high cost of labour in comparison to everywhere else. The US is becoming a country of managers.
Even today in the US, it is not competitive to start an electronics company. Ever looked on the back of an Apple Product? Designed in the US, but made by Foxconn... in Taiwan.
How can a worker in the US which gets paid $21 an hour (Plus benefits) compete with someone in Thailand who is being paid the equivalent of 55 cents an hour? They can't. They also have absolutely abhorrent labour practices there too. Something which hasn't been seen in Europe or North America since the 1700's.. 16 hour work days, working 7 days a week with zero benefits.
Labour unions? In a communist China? Yeah right. Not going to happen. Even if the workers stand up and unite, the government will be quick to arrest them. If they put up a fight, they are executed. (That whole human rights thing...)
This type of competition is killing every manufacturing industry in the US and in Canada. Heck, Electrolux was given a large tax subsidy by the Ontario government if they would keep their vacuum cleaner manufacturing in Canada, but the pricks moved their factories down to Mexico because.... it was cheaper. Go figure.
> foreign appliance manufacturers have unique and tasty deals with the retailers
> that are hard or impossible for USA manufacturers to participate with.
Agreed!! When labour is cheap, the end price is cheap.. which means consumers are more likely to buy it... So, you have the Wal-Mart syndrome.. everyone wants their $8 waffle makers.
> Don't say that the quality of the USA product is so wretched.
In my rant, I didn't mean to say that anything US made sucked. US made TV sets were built like tanks and lasted as long as them too, provided you kept changing the tubes and replaced the dried out electrolytic caps as required. Yes, they were expensive, but it wasn't uncommon for a family to keep the same set for 10-20 years before it was ready for the scrap heap.
The problem is that a lot of US companies had to cut corners to keep their product competitively priced for the market. Since the quality sucked, they sold less. Since they sold less, they have to cut more corners to stay competitive. It is a vicious cycle.
We see it all the time with restaurants here. They start off with low prices and excellent food. Then the quality of the food starts dropping and the prices slowly start going up. As a result, they get less customers, so the prices keep going up and the food eventually ends up sucking. Pretty soon, you end up paying $30 for a steak which is made from Grade C beef which has excessive amounts of meat glue in it to give it the appearance of an actual steak. (Yes, this has happened to me.) Of course, the inevitable happens....
> USA washers CLEAN CLOTHES and work well.
Let me fix that for you... "USA Built washers clean clothes and work well."
> Is the foreign stuff SO MUCH BETTER? In my opinion, NO.
I disagree with that. I'll keep citing Miele as an example. Miele could have been based out of the US for all I care.. but the reason why they have their reputation is because of the company policies and methodologies behind how they manufacture their product. Are they expensive? Heck yeah. Is it worth it? Absolutely.
> I believe the masses think that foreign brands are different, chic.
I think that is a part of it, but I don't think that is the rule. I think it's more like, "It's on Sale at Wal-Mart for $500, so I'm buying it." that is the problem. Some consumers couldn't care less what it is badged under, they just want the features and the functionality for the best price.
> The fact that they deviated from convention and bought a foreign brand somehow makes them smarter.
I would like to disagree with that sentiment. It all depends on the circumstances. If you have a high powered lawyer who wants a status symbol in his basement, it's not going to say "GE" on it.
The mother of four children couldn't care less, but if they do, they'll buy something they know works.
> THE RETAILERS
Yes. That's exactly it. GE and WCI have some really solid tie ins with most of the major distribution channels. All of the appliances in our home were Roper (WCI) ones. The washer/dryer set were Whirlpool. However, LG and Samsung are making some really good inroads into that market. The day when I see homes come with those appliances, it will pretty much be game over.
> THE USA MANUFACTURER
Which is becoming a rare breed. I agree, they should make the foreign product look like a toy or garbage in comparison. How to do it though? Well, if you found two washers that did exactly the same thing, had all the same features, had exactly the same tub size and even the same warranty, but the US made washer cost $1000 more, which one would you buy?
How do you go to the management and say, "Your price point needs to be $1000 lower to stay competitive." .. If you were in their shoes, how would you do it?
> THE CUSTOMER
The customer ultimately speaks with their money. However, it is also market forces and reputation which also drive the sales. Marketing can only take a company so far. When you have a mother of four children who buys a new Whirlpool and the thing breaks down 2 months after the warranty has expired and she's still got another years worth of payments left on it and Whirlpool wants 75 percent of the cost of the machine to fix it, who do you think she's going to buy from next time?
> I really blame the customer a lot for the influx of USA job-killing foreign
> appliances.
I think the customer is one part of the equation, but it is not the sole cause. We live in a world economy and in order for the US to stay competitive, there has to be a lot of things which have to change. Again, how do you compete with someone who makes 55 cents an hour?
> Today's kids buying appliances don't seem to understand the value of 100 year
> old Whirlpool or GE support
That's the problem. What good is all that support if the company doesn't stand behind their product?
> or the quality of Speed-Queen.
Agreed. Selling the interior of a machine is a lot harder than selling gizmos and features. Especially when you consider their "Top End" front loader has as many features as a BOL WCI, GE, LG or Samsung machine, but costs as much as a TOL one.
It is much easier to sell "Powerfoam", than it is to sell, "A tub spider which doesn't break after a few short years of regular use."
> been a bit more patriotic and bought a Zenith or Admiral etc,
That's the problem as well. I'm Canadian so patriotism doesn't come into the mix. I couldn't care if a TV was made in Chicago or Taiwan. What I want is something which is built well, has a good warranty and is decently priced. I will find the best manufacturer out there and I won't buy an inferior product.
With my parents growing up, I recall we had a GE TV set, then a Ford Philco TV, then a Magnavox, then a Hitachi.. All of those were domestic (As domestic as can be living in Canada) except for the last one.. Why did my father buy a Hitachi? It was the cheapest 46" TV on the floor at the time. (Back in 1992)
> What happened to the US television manufacturing industry? HELLO!!!
I agree. All of the manufacturing involving electronics was moved overseas due to the cost of labour. I find it ironic that Intel makes CPU's for computers in the USA, but all of the rest of the components are made usually somewhere in East Asia, like Taiwan.
This is a story we are going to see time and time again where manufacturing jobs are moving out of the US due to the high cost of labour in comparison to everywhere else. The US is becoming a country of managers.
Even today in the US, it is not competitive to start an electronics company. Ever looked on the back of an Apple Product? Designed in the US, but made by Foxconn... in Taiwan.
How can a worker in the US which gets paid $21 an hour (Plus benefits) compete with someone in Thailand who is being paid the equivalent of 55 cents an hour? They can't. They also have absolutely abhorrent labour practices there too. Something which hasn't been seen in Europe or North America since the 1700's.. 16 hour work days, working 7 days a week with zero benefits.
Labour unions? In a communist China? Yeah right. Not going to happen. Even if the workers stand up and unite, the government will be quick to arrest them. If they put up a fight, they are executed. (That whole human rights thing...)
This type of competition is killing every manufacturing industry in the US and in Canada. Heck, Electrolux was given a large tax subsidy by the Ontario government if they would keep their vacuum cleaner manufacturing in Canada, but the pricks moved their factories down to Mexico because.... it was cheaper. Go figure.
> foreign appliance manufacturers have unique and tasty deals with the retailers
> that are hard or impossible for USA manufacturers to participate with.
Agreed!! When labour is cheap, the end price is cheap.. which means consumers are more likely to buy it... So, you have the Wal-Mart syndrome.. everyone wants their $8 waffle makers.
> Don't say that the quality of the USA product is so wretched.
In my rant, I didn't mean to say that anything US made sucked. US made TV sets were built like tanks and lasted as long as them too, provided you kept changing the tubes and replaced the dried out electrolytic caps as required. Yes, they were expensive, but it wasn't uncommon for a family to keep the same set for 10-20 years before it was ready for the scrap heap.
The problem is that a lot of US companies had to cut corners to keep their product competitively priced for the market. Since the quality sucked, they sold less. Since they sold less, they have to cut more corners to stay competitive. It is a vicious cycle.
We see it all the time with restaurants here. They start off with low prices and excellent food. Then the quality of the food starts dropping and the prices slowly start going up. As a result, they get less customers, so the prices keep going up and the food eventually ends up sucking. Pretty soon, you end up paying $30 for a steak which is made from Grade C beef which has excessive amounts of meat glue in it to give it the appearance of an actual steak. (Yes, this has happened to me.) Of course, the inevitable happens....
> USA washers CLEAN CLOTHES and work well.
Let me fix that for you... "USA Built washers clean clothes and work well."
> Is the foreign stuff SO MUCH BETTER? In my opinion, NO.
I disagree with that. I'll keep citing Miele as an example. Miele could have been based out of the US for all I care.. but the reason why they have their reputation is because of the company policies and methodologies behind how they manufacture their product. Are they expensive? Heck yeah. Is it worth it? Absolutely.
> I believe the masses think that foreign brands are different, chic.
I think that is a part of it, but I don't think that is the rule. I think it's more like, "It's on Sale at Wal-Mart for $500, so I'm buying it." that is the problem. Some consumers couldn't care less what it is badged under, they just want the features and the functionality for the best price.
> The fact that they deviated from convention and bought a foreign brand somehow makes them smarter.
I would like to disagree with that sentiment. It all depends on the circumstances. If you have a high powered lawyer who wants a status symbol in his basement, it's not going to say "GE" on it.
The mother of four children couldn't care less, but if they do, they'll buy something they know works. > THE RETAILERS
Yes. That's exactly it. GE and WCI have some really solid tie ins with most of the major distribution channels. All of the appliances in our home were Roper (WCI) ones. The washer/dryer set were Whirlpool. However, LG and Samsung are making some really good inroads into that market. The day when I see homes come with those appliances, it will pretty much be game over.
> THE USA MANUFACTURER
Which is becoming a rare breed. I agree, they should make the foreign product look like a toy or garbage in comparison. How to do it though? Well, if you found two washers that did exactly the same thing, had all the same features, had exactly the same tub size and even the same warranty, but the US made washer cost $1000 more, which one would you buy?
How do you go to the management and say, "Your price point needs to be $1000 lower to stay competitive." .. If you were in their shoes, how would you do it?
> THE CUSTOMER
The customer ultimately speaks with their money. However, it is also market forces and reputation which also drive the sales. Marketing can only take a company so far. When you have a mother of four children who buys a new Whirlpool and the thing breaks down 2 months after the warranty has expired and she's still got another years worth of payments left on it and Whirlpool wants 75 percent of the cost of the machine to fix it, who do you think she's going to buy from next time?
> I really blame the customer a lot for the influx of USA job-killing foreign
> appliances.
I think the customer is one part of the equation, but it is not the sole cause. We live in a world economy and in order for the US to stay competitive, there has to be a lot of things which have to change. Again, how do you compete with someone who makes 55 cents an hour?
> Today's kids buying appliances don't seem to understand the value of 100 year
> old Whirlpool or GE support
That's the problem. What good is all that support if the company doesn't stand behind their product?
> or the quality of Speed-Queen.
Agreed. Selling the interior of a machine is a lot harder than selling gizmos and features. Especially when you consider their "Top End" front loader has as many features as a BOL WCI, GE, LG or Samsung machine, but costs as much as a TOL one.
It is much easier to sell "Powerfoam", than it is to sell, "A tub spider which doesn't break after a few short years of regular use."
> been a bit more patriotic and bought a Zenith or Admiral etc,
That's the problem as well. I'm Canadian so patriotism doesn't come into the mix. I couldn't care if a TV was made in Chicago or Taiwan. What I want is something which is built well, has a good warranty and is decently priced. I will find the best manufacturer out there and I won't buy an inferior product.
With my parents growing up, I recall we had a GE TV set, then a Ford Philco TV, then a Magnavox, then a Hitachi.. All of those were domestic (As domestic as can be living in Canada) except for the last one.. Why did my father buy a Hitachi? It was the cheapest 46" TV on the floor at the time. (Back in 1992)
To Arbilab
> ethics went out the window.
Agreed. It's sad that there are courses businessmen have to take on "Business Ethics".
> management used to rise through the ranks with an understanding of the product
That's the thing. How many executives at GE or WCI actually have a washer/dryer set in their laundry room made by their company? Do they even understand what goes into the machines? Do they understand what the market is like? Do they even care?
It really makes me mad when I hear things from the CEO or some other executive at a car company say things like, "I'm not a car guy." .. WTF? That's like when Apple hired the Ex-CEO of Pepsi to run the company.. didn't know a thing about computers. Apple only got back on their feet when Steve joined the company again, because he knew what a computer should be.
If anything, it should be mandated that WCI or GE executives hang around on automaticwasher.org and get to understand us and our thoughts behind what really should constitute a washing machine. They should learn from their past.
I would love it if we could get a room full of GE Filter-Flo fanatics together and then bring in a bunch of GE executives in the large appliance division and have a sleep over... and lock the windows and all the doors. Hopefully, there won't be too much blood.
> and the customer and an appreciation for the company's reputation.
We saw this demonstrated when Maytag had a valuable and trusted brand name destroyed in ten short years because the executives didn't understand that value and trust only come with time, not profits.
> management waltzes in with an MBA and absolutely no concept of product or
> customer, only spreadsheets.
DING!!!! You couldn't have described that better. This is just exactly it.
At least at GM, they make the executives use their own product. That's a step in the right direction. Now, if only they would make them BUY their own product.
> ethics went out the window.
Agreed. It's sad that there are courses businessmen have to take on "Business Ethics".
> management used to rise through the ranks with an understanding of the product
That's the thing. How many executives at GE or WCI actually have a washer/dryer set in their laundry room made by their company? Do they even understand what goes into the machines? Do they understand what the market is like? Do they even care?
It really makes me mad when I hear things from the CEO or some other executive at a car company say things like, "I'm not a car guy." .. WTF? That's like when Apple hired the Ex-CEO of Pepsi to run the company.. didn't know a thing about computers. Apple only got back on their feet when Steve joined the company again, because he knew what a computer should be.
If anything, it should be mandated that WCI or GE executives hang around on automaticwasher.org and get to understand us and our thoughts behind what really should constitute a washing machine. They should learn from their past.
I would love it if we could get a room full of GE Filter-Flo fanatics together and then bring in a bunch of GE executives in the large appliance division and have a sleep over... and lock the windows and all the doors. Hopefully, there won't be too much blood.
> and the customer and an appreciation for the company's reputation.
We saw this demonstrated when Maytag had a valuable and trusted brand name destroyed in ten short years because the executives didn't understand that value and trust only come with time, not profits.
> management waltzes in with an MBA and absolutely no concept of product or
> customer, only spreadsheets.
DING!!!! You couldn't have described that better. This is just exactly it.
At least at GM, they make the executives use their own product. That's a step in the right direction. Now, if only they would make them BUY their own product.
To Firedome
> WP needs to make a quality product in the US, price it and service it properly,
Agreed. The key thing you said there was "Price it". My previous posts here mention why that is a real big problem.
> is it general consensus then that SQ is the best US made washer at present?
Without sounding like a complete fanboi, yes. My personal e-mail is qualin@n0$pam.shaw.ca .. I'll be glad to e-mail you the reasons why.
> Are they still around?
Yup. They're made by Alliance Laundry Systems now. They specialize in making commercial laundry equipment and just happen to also be in the consumer market too. They're based out of Ripon, WI.
> WP needs to make a quality product in the US, price it and service it properly,
Agreed. The key thing you said there was "Price it". My previous posts here mention why that is a real big problem.
> is it general consensus then that SQ is the best US made washer at present?
Without sounding like a complete fanboi, yes. My personal e-mail is qualin@n0$pam.shaw.ca .. I'll be glad to e-mail you the reasons why.
> Are they still around?
Yup. They're made by Alliance Laundry Systems now. They specialize in making commercial laundry equipment and just happen to also be in the consumer market too.
They're based out of Ripon, WI.To Tomturbomatic
> the WP washers I wrote about are not made in the USA.
Where are they made and who makes them?
> Buying one does not mean jobs for US factory workers.
That's the other problem. If you buy a GM product, you may actually be buying a Korean-Made car, believe it or not. (GM bought out Daewoo.) You can't be sure by buying an American branded name that you are even buying American.
Buying something to be "Patriotic" is getting to be a very irrelevant idea these days... that's very unfortunate.
> Speed Queen makes a tumbler washer in the United States.
One of the few! I think all of us should someday arrange for a factory tour. I would gladly fly out to Ripon, WI to see how they make their machines.
> the WP washers I wrote about are not made in the USA.
Where are they made and who makes them?
> Buying one does not mean jobs for US factory workers.
That's the other problem. If you buy a GM product, you may actually be buying a Korean-Made car, believe it or not. (GM bought out Daewoo.) You can't be sure by buying an American branded name that you are even buying American.
Buying something to be "Patriotic" is getting to be a very irrelevant idea these days... that's very unfortunate.
> Speed Queen makes a tumbler washer in the United States.
One of the few! I think all of us should someday arrange for a factory tour. I would gladly fly out to Ripon, WI to see how they make their machines.
To Laundromat
> WCI ( Now known as Electrolux of Sweden)opened a huge plant in Agusta ,GA.
I was not aware of that.. I guess you clarified something for me. I thought WCI made Whirlpool, guess I was wrong. I'm glad to see that they at least opened a plant. That's a very good sign. Maybe all my doom and gloom in the last few posts may not be quite all that.
> including Wascomat, Frigidaire, Crosley, kenmore and GE.
ARGH! Really!??! I'm under the impression that Wascomat washers are some of the best in the industry! How can the same company make the best and worst washers all at the same time from the same factory!?!
This clinches it.. Why the heck can't they build Wascomat Quality into a TOL FL washer and sell it to the consumer channel? I would have paid $2k-$2.5k for one of those machines... it would have beat the service and support that Miele offers!
> They just began to make a new top loader
I'm assuming this is a washplate style machine?
> come with the strongest warranty ever,3 years parts and labor.
That is exactly why I was willing to spend nearly $2k on one of their machines. How can a company sell such an expensive machine if they won't stand behind it? Well, considering that their machines have 3x the warranty of anything else on the market, that really says something about the confidence level that company has in their machines.
As a consumer, I have a real big problem dropping $2k on a Samsung or LG machine, only to have it break down 14 months later with all kinds of electronics problems, then get told that I need to spend $1500 on a mainboard.
> If you were an authorized dealer, you had to also be a service company
"We service what we sell." .. That sounds reasonable enough to me.
> I know of many folks who've never heard of Speed Queen.
Isn't that sad? Shame they just don't spend more on marketing like they used to. They would become a real force against the other mfr's out there.
> I recently saw Homo Depot selling an L.G. set for only $499 each!!
Two things.. LOL on the name... Second... I can see how the housewife with four kids would just buy that without a second thought.
> I was told yesterday that I will be released (discharged) this wednesday
Congratulations!
> WCI ( Now known as Electrolux of Sweden)opened a huge plant in Agusta ,GA.
I was not aware of that.. I guess you clarified something for me. I thought WCI made Whirlpool, guess I was wrong. I'm glad to see that they at least opened a plant. That's a very good sign. Maybe all my doom and gloom in the last few posts may not be quite all that.
> including Wascomat, Frigidaire, Crosley, kenmore and GE.
ARGH! Really!??! I'm under the impression that Wascomat washers are some of the best in the industry! How can the same company make the best and worst washers all at the same time from the same factory!?!
This clinches it.. Why the heck can't they build Wascomat Quality into a TOL FL washer and sell it to the consumer channel? I would have paid $2k-$2.5k for one of those machines... it would have beat the service and support that Miele offers!
> They just began to make a new top loader
I'm assuming this is a washplate style machine?
> come with the strongest warranty ever,3 years parts and labor.
That is exactly why I was willing to spend nearly $2k on one of their machines. How can a company sell such an expensive machine if they won't stand behind it? Well, considering that their machines have 3x the warranty of anything else on the market, that really says something about the confidence level that company has in their machines.
As a consumer, I have a real big problem dropping $2k on a Samsung or LG machine, only to have it break down 14 months later with all kinds of electronics problems, then get told that I need to spend $1500 on a mainboard.
> If you were an authorized dealer, you had to also be a service company
"We service what we sell." .. That sounds reasonable enough to me.
> I know of many folks who've never heard of Speed Queen.
Isn't that sad? Shame they just don't spend more on marketing like they used to. They would become a real force against the other mfr's out there.
> I recently saw Homo Depot selling an L.G. set for only $499 each!!
Two things.. LOL on the name... Second... I can see how the housewife with four kids would just buy that without a second thought.
> I was told yesterday that I will be released (discharged) this wednesday
Congratulations!
Apologies
Oh, to anyone reading this thread...
I apologize for my lengthy and numerous posts on this topic, but this topic has really hit a hot button with me and I feel I have a lot to add into the conversation.
Now that I got most of my ranting out there for all to see, hopefully my posts will be a little shorter.
Oh, to anyone reading this thread...
I apologize for my lengthy and numerous posts on this topic, but this topic has really hit a hot button with me and I feel I have a lot to add into the conversation.
Now that I got most of my ranting out there for all to see, hopefully my posts will be a little shorter.
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