Whirlpool and Samsung are reducing the maximum spin speed on their washers

[whirlpool862]

I didn’t know that I had to share another rant on modern Whirlpool washers. I’m also doing it for Samsung. I’m not going to discuss control board issues again since I discussed that plenty of times. But, over the years, Whirlpool has been reducing the RPM’s on their narrow drum style stainless steel VMW’s. The original versions from 2010 were 800 RPM, and they were 800 RPM until 2018, when they reduced it to 770 RPM for the 2018 redesign models with the redesigned tub and balance ring. They reduced it even more in 2021, and those are now 680 RPM. Now essentially all the smaller VMWs have similar spin speeds to the bigger 4.2 to 4.3 cu ft units made from 2014 to 2022 (which were 660 RPM).

Was the reason why they reduced the RPM so they could reduce noise? Well, my washer wasn’t that loud on spin cycle until the bearings went out.

So, the newer VMWs, apparently you need more drying time after it’s washed because they don’t spin as fast.

Maybe they did it so the bearings didn’t go out as much. Well, they should’ve just used better bearings rather than just reduce the spinning speed. Many of the modern GE’s are 800 RPM and they don’t get bearing issues that often. Same goes for even the older Samsungs (despite how much I dislike Samsung). The 800 RPM VMW Whirlpools never had issues with exploding, so I don’t think that was the reason. I think it was so Whirlpool can promote customers to buy their top-of-the-line $1000 VMAX unit for them to get less drying time.

VMWs used to consistently be 800 RPM for the stainless steel tub units (as long as it wasn’t the 4.2 to 4.3 cu. ft. model) and 700 RPM for models that use the porcelain tub. Some sites misclassified the rating (like the Amana NTW4755EW being classified as 700 RPM when it clearly spun at 800 RPM in the video of the normal cycle I watched). For the newer VMWs, this doesn’t seem to be a misclassification, it seems to actually be true.

Whirlpool also now seemed to have removed that spec to make people not know this. Apparently now the NTW4516FW is now listed as 680 RPM, when it used to be 700.

They also seem to now use 1/4 housepower motors for the stainless VMW units. So, the newest Whirlpool VMWs (at least the stainless ones) aren’t even as powerful as the oldest ones when it comes to spin cycle.

My 2014 Whirlpool WTW4900BW0 has the full 800 RPM spin speed. 680 RPM is closer to the low spin speed on my washer than the full spin speed. Even the extra big VMWs have RPMs that claim to be 750-770 RPM, which is lower the 800 RPM for the narrow drum VMWs, but I guess it is close enough. A new narrow tub VMW spins 120 RPMs slower than an older one.

The older floating tub units had 1100 RPM (which is excellent for a top loader), I believe all the VMAX’s are 850 RPM which is still decent. But, many people cannot afford a VMAX (which is usually around $1000). You used to be able to buy a stainless drum VMW with 800 RPM for $599 I think. Not quite like 850 RPM, but that's still a good spin speed for a top loader.

I think a lot of the newest GE VMW styles are 800 RPM but some I think are 700. Samsungs are 700-750 RPM. LG top loaders seem to have the highest RPM of all modern washers. It seems like as time went on, Whirlpool VMWs just kept getting worse and worse. It seems that the older the VMW is, the better it is. I think all the commercial units are 700 RPM and always have been.

Also, I think Whirlpool should go back to the older balance ring designs on their narrow basket VMW’s, the new narrow drums make this horrible popping type of noise when it spins and they sometimes even like shake like crazy and put a hole in the wall. The small balance ring design has been proven to not do a good job in balancing, and Whirlpool keeps putting it on more of their machines. GE seems to actually be getting better (as long as you’re not buying the Profile unit). They don’t need to necessarily bring back the older tub designs but they should go back to the bigger balance ring. I think they should do that for the big drum VMW and VMAX units also.

Whirlpool VMW’s also seem to be slowly looking more like Samsungs or Mideas than Whirlpools. The Maytag font and their metal (may be just plastic that looks like metal) control panel is gone, now they just use the generic font and slap a Maytag logo on it. The MVW4005SW is essentially just the WTW4855HW with a Maytag branding on it.

There is no wonder why Whirlpool VMW washers are not labeled as high efficiency anymore, it’s because they are making their washers less efficient in a bad way. Samsung also has been reducing RPM’s on their units. The newer Whirlpool narrow basket VMWs don’t even spin much faster than the older direct drives (640 RPM for a direct drive vs 680 RPM for a VMW with narrow basket). I’m pretty sure when H.E. washers first came out, higher spin speeds were an advantage. Nowadays, Whirlpool keeps reducing the spinning speed. Someday, I might see VMWs with only a 600 RPM spin speed and VMAX’s with 750 RPM. This is getting ridiculous!

Samsung seems to be doing the same thing, their older stator driven units were 800 RPM and 1100 RPM consistently, now they are all 750 RPM.

GE seems to actually be increasing the spin speed on their units, with all being at least 700 RPM now. Their HydroWaves had spin speeds of 630 to 700. Now, the newer units from 2015 and onward are now all 700 to 800 RPM.

I hope the newest style that just came out (like the WTW4100SW) has a higher RPM than the six light units from 2021 and onward did, but I can’t find RPM specs for it.

 

[DADoES]

Whelp .... I'm moving along with three in-use Fisher & Paykel toploaders that top-out at 1,010 RPM and a Neptune TL of 850 RPM.

 

[whirlpool862]

Whelp .... I'm moving along with three in-use Fisher & Paykel toploaders that top-out at 1,010 RPM and a Neptune TL of 850 RPM.

The top loading Neptune was not a good machine and had a lot of issue, be surprised that it still works. Most have been scraped years ago.

 

[DADoES]

I'm well-aware of the Neptune TL's issues. Bought the machine NIB in May 2008 (whopping $325, incl shipping from NJ to TX), which makes it currently 17.5 yo. It was initially put in use as the daily-driver. It had a warranty replacement of the clutch/pulley at 6 months (which I could have DIYed but it was in warranty). It has occasional use from that point forward but isn't the primary. The clutch/pulley again exhibited erratic behavior several years ago. I disassembled, cleaned and lubed it. The early failure possibly could have been solved in the same fashion, but it was in warranty. I used it through the past summer season for yard-work clothes.

 

[combo52]

Wow, you’re way over analyzing this very little change.

I’m sure the slightly reduced spin speeds are because there have been top load whirlpool machines that flew apart as well as Samsung and LG and others have had trouble with self-destructing washers when unusual Loads of wash that would go suddenly out of balance at high spin speed.

It’s really not worth arguing about nobody seriously buys top loading washers anymore that are into washing machines.

Bearing failure in washing machines has nothing to do with the quality of the bearings it has to do with the water seals, it doesn’t make a bit of difference whether it spins a 1200 RPMs or 600. The bearings will not wear out faster at 1200 RPMs.

John L

 

[whirlpool862]

Wow, you’re way over analyzing this very little change.

I’m sure the slightly reduced spin speeds are because there have been top load whirlpool machines that flew apart as well as Samsung and LG and others have had trouble with self-destructing washers when unusual Loads of wash that would go suddenly out of balance at high spin speed.

It’s really not worth arguing about nobody seriously buys top loading washers anymore that are into washing machines.

Bearing failure in washing machines has nothing to do with the quality of the bearings it has to do with the water seals, it doesn’t make a bit of difference whether it spins a 1200 RPMs or 600. The bearings will not wear out faster at 1200 RPMs.

John L

It’s a big difference. 680 RPM is significantly lower RPM than 800 RPM. That’s 120 RPMs less. Also, some washers that exploded didn’t have that high RPM’s. Some of them only had 700 RPM and still exploded. Explosions are more of a balance ring or suspension issue I think.

Also, the newest 800 RPM Samsungs didn’t explode. It was pretty much a non-existent failure after 2016.

Also, I think cheap bearings do wear faster. The Whirlpool commercial VMWs use NSK bearings (as confirmed by YouTube video), and those RARELY ever go out. The residential units use no-name brand bearings and those go out quite often. Both seem to be using the same seals.

The new VMWs from 2018-present (at least the six light models, not talking about the VMAX or the extra large 4.7 to 4.8 cu. ft. VMW from late 2019-present), are much
less prone to noisy bearings than the older versions made before 2018, and the seals in the transmissions look the same. They don’t seem thicker than the old ones. Not all washers with bad bearings have a leak, my washer isn’t leaking despite having loud bearings. I’m pretty sure if the seal failed too there would be a leak also.

The GE HydroWaves and Model-T’s, when the bearings failed, those usually actually did have a leak in the upper seal that caused water to leak down to the lower bearing. That’s how the bearings failed many of the older GE’s. You’d often see water on the pan or rust on the older GE’s. If your older GE is noisy on spin cycle and sounds like bad bearings, it’s likely that the seal is also bad.

Some of the modern units seem to have bearings that fail without a bad seal. Cause is unknown but it could be just wear or corrosion. Probably cheaper bearings. Cars have wheel bearings, and those fail from friction - even without water. Same for washing machines, the friction of the bearing while the washer is in a spin cycle can damage the bearings over time. Same for even fan motors, bearings wear out over time from the fast spin speed of the fan. Friction causes heat, and heat damages the bearings over time.

The lower spin speed of the newer VMWs is one of the reasons why there are less bearing failures, and even those with the same spin speed, the bearings tend to be better, even tho the main seals are the same.

I only knew of one 2018-present VMW with bad bearings, and it was a WTW4955HW1 that my mom got. It wasn’t even used by her when the bearing first went out, it was bought off of Facebook and it was one of the scam listings that said “works perfectly” but had bad bearings, the listing didn’t even say “loud on spin cycle” like many do, and it has since been sold. It was loud when she bought it. It was probably really overloaded since it was a 2018-present model and those don’t usually get bearing failures. I believe it was 770 RPM. Don’t remember if it was leaking or not. She now has a used WP-built Maytag direct drive. She says it was too loud for her to keep.

If the washer does leak and is noisy, it’s likely that the seal has compromised the bearings. If it’s not, then it’s mor likely due to wear or overloading. The bearings on the VMW units are not serviceable. They are sealed inside a transmission, so you can’t just lubricate them.

 

[pstehle]

Wow, you’re way over analyzing this very little change.

I’m sure the slightly reduced spin speeds are because there have been top load whirlpool machines that flew apart as well as Samsung and LG and others have had trouble with self-destructing washers when unusual Loads of wash that would go suddenly out of balance at high spin speed.

It’s really not worth arguing about nobody seriously buys top loading washers anymore that are into washing machines.

Bearing failure in washing machines has nothing to do with the quality of the bearings it has to do with the water seals, it doesn’t make a bit of difference whether it spins a 1200 RPMs or 600. The bearings will not wear out faster at 1200 RPMs.

John L

Not sure why higher spin speed doesn't affect bearing life. I agree, most failures are caused by leaks past seals, but at the razor-edge most mainstream appliance designs run at, I can't believe 1200rpm won't shorten the life of bearings compared to 600rpm. The load increases exponentially.

 

[DADoES]

My Neptune TL FAV6800 has a serial number of Dec 2005, so it's officially vintage next month!

 

[whirlpool862]

Not sure why higher spin speed doesn't affect bearing life. I agree, most failures are caused by leaks past seals, but at the razor-edge most mainstream appliance designs run at, I can't believe 1200rpm won't shorten the life of bearings compared to 600rpm. The load increases exponentially.

It depends on the way the bearing fails. If it’s not leaking then it’s probably due to heat from friction. If there’s a leak then the seal is bad too. Bearing failure accompanied by a leak on the bottom usually means the seal has failed.

Also, high spin speeds do affect bearings. It affects car wheel bearings, so if obviously also affects the bearings for the drum of a washer. Slower spin speeds put less friction on the bearing. Overloading also causes the bearings to fail sooner. That might be why manufacturers are reducing spin speeds. While it increases the time in the dryer it puts less stress on the bearings.

The bearings on older washers typically failed due to a leaky seal. Some of the newer ones don’t seem to. I looked underneath my VMW with noisy bearings and the bottom was clean and not leaking. A lot of the Whirlpool VMW and VMAX units have bad bearings without any signs of leak, the newer GE’s I think someone’s do as well.

The older HydroWaves and model-T’s had upper seal issues which caused the bearing to fail due to water getting into it. Usually the bearings on those failed from a bad seal. Oftentimes, people would change the mode shifter, and the bearing would keep failing because they didn’t change the seal. Usually, the upper seal would fail first on those, then the bearings did.

Oftentimes, on the HydroWaves and Motel-T’s, the washer was leaking from the bottom when the bearing failed. Those had bottom pans built in so it didn’t get on the floor. But, when you opened the front panel of an older GE with bad bearings, you’d often see rust or water on the bottom of the unit. I think the older Amanatags, or the Maytag Atlantis or Performa, also had the bearings fail for the same reason - bad tub seal.

 

[combo52]

Conventional wisdom is not always wisdom

I would imagine the reasons they’re reducing the spin speed have more to do about vibration issues, possible washer, self-destructing from washing waterproof bedding that can become suddenly unbalanced during the high spin cycles.

Also, there are consumer complaints about excessive wrinkling from high spin speeds and spots left on clothing from the holes in the wash basket extremely high spin speeds.

I’ve never seen bearings fail in a washing machine that didn’t have some water in them, sometimes the leak is very slight, but it’s enough to destroy the bearings

Overloading a washer is generally gonna be less harmful than doing twice as many loads. We have the technology to make bearings that will hold up to the loading, even my Speed Queen owners manual warns against doing small loads all the time in their front load washers because it will considerably shorten the life of the washer. We have one customer that has over 50,000 loads on a Speed Queen front load washer it was used commercially for the first 10 years of its life, never a bearing or a seal failure.

Next time you’re on the highway and a tractor trailer or cement Mixer passes you think about how much a load is on the front wheel bearings of that vehicle and they can sustain this type of operation for more than 100,000 miles without changing those wheel bearings. Those wheel bearings are not that much heavier duty than what’s in a washing machine.

John L

 

[phillymatt53]

Next time you’re on the highway and a tractor trailer or cement Mixer passes you think about how much a load is on the front wheel bearings of that vehicle and they can sustain this type of operation for more than 100,000 miles without changing those wheel bearings. Those wheel bearings are not that much heavier duty than what’s in a washing machine.

John L

Vehicle wheel bearings are put under extremely rough use.
Besides the payload, speeds, the steering forces, and the road surfaces, including potholes, it's hardly comparable to spin cycles in a washer.

 

[whirlpool862]

Conventional wisdom is not always wisdom

I would imagine the reasons they’re reducing the spin speed have more to do about vibration issues, possible washer, self-destructing from washing waterproof bedding that can become suddenly unbalanced during the high spin cycles.

Also, there are consumer complaints about excessive wrinkling from high spin speeds and spots left on clothing from the holes in the wash basket extremely high spin speeds.

I’ve never seen bearings fail in a washing machine that didn’t have some water in them, sometimes the leak is very slight, but it’s enough to destroy the bearings

Overloading a washer is generally gonna be less harmful than doing twice as many loads. We have the technology to make bearings that will hold up to the loading, even my Speed Queen owners manual warns against doing small loads all the time in their front load washers because it will considerably shorten the life of the washer. We have one customer that has over 50,000 loads on a Speed Queen front load washer it was used commercially for the first 10 years of its life, never a bearing or a seal failure.

Next time you’re on the highway and a tractor trailer or cement Mixer passes you think about how much a load is on the front wheel bearings of that vehicle and they can sustain this type of operation for more than 100,000 miles without changing those wheel bearings. Those wheel bearings are not that much heavier duty than what’s in a washing machine.

John L

I think it’s from both. Since washers with lower spin speed tend to have less bearing issues. The whirlpools with the lower spin speed tend to have bearings go out less than the ones with the higher spin speed. The ones with 800 RPM spin speed are most likely to have bad bearings, followed by the 700 RPM agitator units. Whirlpool improved the bearings in 2018 or so. I think whirlpool actually improved the quality of the bearings (that’s one thing they actually improved), since everything else about their washers has gotten worse over time. Since 2018, much less bearing issues happened on the “six light style units” and mainly affected the VMAX units from that time.

Honestly, in 2018, that's when Whirlpool got worse overall, despite improving bearings on VMWs. That’s when they starting putting water valves on the agitator units that were prone to making a horrible noise, they also put smaller balance rings on the narrow drum units, and in late 2019 they also put it on their VMAX units. Now, every stainless steel drum Whirlpool has the smaller balance ring, and so many videos about new installations of those show it vibrating on spin cycle. This was never an issue with the older VMAX’s under normal conditions. The VMAX-style VMWs introduced in late 2019 tend to be more prone to bad bearings than the other modern VMWs, probably because they spin faster. In fact, I think those might be about as prone as the new VMAX’s to bearing issues. I mean the 4.5 to 4.8 cu ft Whirlpools with the different diagnostic mode. Those also vibrate often during the spin cycle due to a smaller balance ring.

It may have to do with vibration too, but the VMW’s didn’t really vibrate that bad (for the ones with the older tub), if it was level and evenly distributed. My VMW doesn’t vibrate too much despite it spinning at 800 RPM. Usually bad vibrations on those are due to bad tub bushing or suspension rods. The ones with the smaller balance ring actually vibrate more.

Spin speed doesn’t seem to help with exploding washers tbh. Since the recalled 800 and 700 RPM Samsung machines exploded just as much as the 1100 RPM ones did. Plus, many washer explosions happen on the intermediate spin, which often has a lower spin speed than the final spin. Slower spin speed tends to help with bearing issues, if VMWs spun at 1,500 RPM or something I think they’d get bearing problems much more often, even the newer ones with better quality bearings.

Even some of the HydroWaves and model-T’s exploded, and those didn’t spin that fast, only 630-700 RPM.

Washers with agitators seem to explode MUCH less then those with the impeller. Not sure why, but most of the newer GE, Samsung, LG, and even Whirlpool units that exploded had an impeller, not an agitator. I’ve never seen a VMW of my style explode, tho I’ve seen it on the older floating tub units and even a few VMAX units on the internet. The agitator seems to prevent the washer from exploding for some reason.

VMW capacitors rarely go bad on most of the units (if it’s not the really big drum one that’s 4.5 to 4.8 cu ft or the really old ones). The really old ones (made in 2012 or before) and the big drum ones seem prone to capacitor issues, tho.

Whirlpool also has actually made the balance ring bigger on the porcelain tub VMWs in mid 2013. That’s actually one the good redesigns they made, as they seem a bit less prone to shaking then the ones with the smaller balance ring, but those are still prone. I feel like VMWs improved a bit in mid 2012 or so, and then got worse again in around 2018. The 4.2 to 4.3 VMWs weren’t the best design. The hubs and bushings would often fail on those as well as the shaft splines. I feel that VMWs from 2012-2017 have the least amount of issues, as long as the gearcase and bearings are good. The 2010-2012 VMWs were fine but the capacitors on those often went out.

The older VMAX’s seem better too, the newer VMAX’s seem more prone to issues with the slider and going off balance. The control boards are also worse as well as the balance ring. They also sometimes get the pump wire issue from what I’ve heard (tho not as much as the extra large VMWs). The sliders tend to fail within a year or two. They also have thinner lids. Spin cycles vibrate more on those. The older ones were pretty reliable, as long as the bearings didn’t go out. If it wasn’t the bearings, then it was usually a small part. Slider issues were still common, but not as common, like sometimes you’d hear a squealing, grinding, or odd sound when agitating.

GE seems to actually be improving their lower end units. I don’t think GE is going downhill again for their basic washers. GE is one of the only manufacturers that are actually improving in quality. LG and Samsung now have washers with AI, I hope GE and Whirlpool don’t do it. LG washers seem pretty good, but it can be hard to find parts and I wouldn’t recommend any of their AI washing machines. The LG top loaders also don’t make a pleasant noise on spin cycle so that’s a thing customers should be aware of. The stator on those make this high pitched noise that an old television would make.

American honestly isn’t always better when it comes to washers (except Speed Queen), LG washers are better than any of the newest washers from Whirlpool or GE. Frigidaire top load washers are made by Midea, and the stacks I’m not sure but they are outsourced by other manufacturers so I wouldn’t recommend those either. Frigidaire has honestly never made the best washers. The WCI Frigidaires weren’t good either. American appliances have declined in quality similar to how American cars have.

Samsung isn’t good, they are prone to a lot of issues, the control boards and suspension rods often go on the top loaders, the front loaders often have bearing or spider arm issues within one or two years. The pumps on the top loaders also go out frequently. DO NOT BUY A SAMSUNG. The newest Whirlpools seem to be even worse than the Samsungs, at least the Samsungs don’t have control board issues within a year.

Wouldn’t recommend Midea, parts are often harder to find and they don’t hold up that well.

 

[maytag85]

I don’t always keep up in the realm of news in regards to newer washers, but there might be a reason why Whirlpool and Samsung are reducing the spin speeds a bit. My guess is it’s probably to do with wrinkling as mentioned by John, or maybe the engineers discovered there’s not much of a difference after all. Noise complaints can for sure be one of them.

 

[whirlpool862]

I don’t always keep up in the realm of news in regards to newer washers, but there might be a reason why Whirlpool and Samsung are reducing the spin speeds a bit. My guess is it’s probably to do with wrinkling as mentioned by John, or maybe the engineers discovered there’s not much of a difference after all. Noise complaints can for sure be one of them.

A lot of higher RPM washers aren’t that loud as long as the bearings and suspension are good, it’s engineered properly, and it’s level. It could be due to wrinkles, but washers have low speed cycles for a reason. There’s a reason why your casual or delicate cycle has a slower spin speed than the normal cycle. The Samsung top load washers aren’t that loud at all. I don’t think VMAX units and the stator driven GE’s are loud if the bearings are good. VMWs with good bearings, bushing, and suspension rods aren’t usually that loud during the spin cycle if it’s not the newer ones with the poorly designed balance ring, regardless of spin speed. Despite the high pitched noise the LG’s make on the spin cycle, they are not loud either. Obviously, if it’s off balance, it’s going to make a loud banging sound regardless of the max RPM.

High efficiency washers aren’t necessarily louder than older washers, but they do sound different,

 

[phillymatt53]

Marketing "hype" is a common tool to help sell products, does anyone disagree with that?

So with that said, selling a washing machine with a "terrific" new feature would naturally entice the customer to buy it.
And adding that "high-speed" spin feature, tied to an Energy Saving or Time Saving Marketing babble that reduces drying time, is also a strong tool that companies will push on the public.
The general public doesn't know or much care about physics or G-forces of spin cycles.
They look at "conveniences" mainly, and superficial appearence items.
The average housewife doesn't understand all the actual scientific "workings" involved in washing a load of clothes, she just wants to clean them, period.

Decorate the machine with snappy controls, strings of colorful LED lights, and digital displays, and toss in a 5000 RPM spin cycle that is advertised to save you dryer time...... voila!.... the gullible customer will grab it!

My old but good Maytag's got a common 615 RPM spin speed, and it damp-dries everything fine, and it doesn't take my matching dryer long to do its job either.
Almost 4 decades of use, and I don't have any "bearing problems".

That "high speed" spin crap is just marketing blabber, and while it does spin faster, it also stresses the machine and compromises reliability.
But the manufacturer's already got your money, so why should they care?

 

[whirlpool862]

Marketing "hype" is a common tool to help sell products, does anyone disagree with that?

So with that said, selling a washing machine with a "terrific" new feature would naturally entice the customer to buy it.
And adding that "high-speed" spin feature, tied to an Energy Saving or Time Saving Marketing babble that reduces drying time, is also a strong tool that companies will push on the public.
The general public doesn't know or much care about physics or G-forces of spin cycles.
They look at "conveniences" mainly, and superficial appearence items.
The average housewife doesn't understand all the actual scientific "workings" involved in washing a load of clothes, she just wants to clean them, period.

Decorate the machine with snappy controls, strings of colorful LED lights, and digital displays, and toss in a 5000 RPM spin cycle that is advertised to save you dryer time...... voila!.... the gullible customer will grab it!

My old but good Maytag's got a common 615 RPM spin speed, and it damp-dries everything fine, and it doesn't take my matching dryer long to do its job either.
Almost 4 decades of use, and I don't have any "bearing problems".

That "high speed" spin crap is just marketing blabber, and while it does spin faster, it also stresses the machine and compromises reliability.
But the manufacturer's already got your money, so why should they care?

I think it does. Lower RPM puts less stress on the bearings. Friction produces heat, and heat puts stress on the bearings. Not sure about other components. Newer washers I heard do dry better than the older ones, but older washers I’m not saying left clothes soaking wet. In fact, clothes can be dry enough for the dryer at only 400 RPM or something. Also, vintage units rarely got bearing issues, bearing issues only became common when manufacturers cheaped out. Whirlpool direct drives don’t have ball bearings but I think they have sleeve bearing in some components, I think most of the other vintage washers had some sort of ball bearings, but failure wasn’t common. Bearings only became a major issue with washers in the 1990s. GE was the first one to suffer from bearing issues, as well as Maytag. GE model-T washers had terrible tub seals, which allowed water to leak into the transmission bearing. HydroWaves were same way. Maytag’s from Norge and the Amanatags had bearing issues too. Even Speed Queen units are getting more bearing and seal issues than before.

High spin speeds do compromise reliability, especially on the bearings. Older machines, also had replaceable bearings, unlike newer machines where they were all integrated in a transmission or drive shaft assembly.

I’m pretty sure it also puts stress on the suspension components, transmission, and the drum.

 

[lavamat_jon]

That "high speed" spin crap is just marketing blabber, and while it does spin faster, it also stresses the machine and compromises reliability

We’ve had high spin speed machines here in Europe for years without any direct issues from the speed of the spin.

You’ll have to pry my 1600rpm washing machine from my cold, dead hands - especially this time of year when decent outdoor drying weather is rare. The spin performance of a typical US toploader just does not compare - and that’s speaking factually, not emotionally.

 

[phillymatt53]

I think it does. Lower RPM puts less stress on the bearings. Friction produces heat, and heat puts stress on the bearings. Not sure about other components. Newer washers I heard do dry better than the older ones, but older washers I’m not saying left clothes soaking wet. In fact, clothes can be dry enough for the dryer at only 400 RPM or something. Also, vintage units rarely got bearing issues, bearing issues only became common when manufacturers cheaped out. Whirlpool direct drives don’t have ball bearings but I think they have sleeve bearing in some components, I think most of the other vintage washers had some sort of ball bearings, but failure wasn’t common. Bearings only became a major issue with washers in the 1990s. GE was the first one to suffer from bearing issues, as well as Maytag. GE model-T washers had terrible tub seals, which allowed water to leak into the transmission bearing. HydroWaves were same way. Maytag’s from Norge and the Amanatags had bearing issues too. Even Speed Queen units are getting more bearing and seal issues than before.

High spin speeds do compromise reliability, especially on the bearings. Older machines, also had replaceable bearings, unlike newer machines where they were all integrated in a transmission or drive shaft assembly.

I’m pretty sure it also puts stress on the suspension components, transmission, and the drum.

I also suspect that it's linked to Outsourcing of where bearings, among other things, were manufactured.
Cutbacks on quality of critical components shows its ugly head eventually.

 

[qsd-dan]

Cutbacks on quality of critical components shows its ugly head eventually.

Better designed seals would prevent bearing failure. Can't go having a washer last more than 10 years though, that cuts into profits.

 

[whirlpool862]

Better designed seals would prevent bearing failure. Can't go having a washer last more than 10 years though, that cuts into profits.

As well as lower spin speeds and better quality bearings, most newer machines use cheap quality bearings, causing them to fail even with good seals. The VMW Whirlpools often get bad bearings even with good seals and no signs of leakage, but simply because the bearing has worn and corroded overtime and due to exposure to friction.

On older units, the bearings almost never failed unless the seal was bad. The newer VMWs have the same seals as the older ones, but the bearings seem to actually be better on the later models. Some units had bad seals, like the older GE’s. The GE model-T’s were TERRIBLE machines. The transmissions would leak oil, the seal would leak destroying the bottom bearing, and the entire drum rotated a bit when it agitated. Not only the inner drum, but the outer drum was ALSO indexing.

Many factors, including poor quality seals, cheap bearings, and excessively high spin speeds, all destroy bearings. The reason why the bearings on the Maytag Commercial VMWs rarely failed unless, for example, is because they actually use NSK bearings, while the residential units use no-name bearings. Every transmission teardown video I’ve watched for residential machines had cheap no-name bearings. The seals don’t seem to be why the bearings fail on VMWs, since every VMW transmission I’ve seen has the same two styles of seals. One larger one and one smaller one. Both seem to vary. The commercial washers have the smaller seal and they rarely get bearing issues. The VMAX’s get bearing issues all the time and those use the same seal as the 4.2 to 4.3 cu ft VMWs that don’t get the issue that much. A lot of the Whirlpools they are noisy don’t even leak meaning the seal is good. If a seal is bad usually there’s a little water on the floor. Older VMWs just used poor quality no-name bearings, they still typically lasted a good while if it wasn’t overloaded and used properly. My washer has lasted 10 years before getting noisy. If a VMW is noisy within a year it’s either overloaded or the seal is defective. Ducttape mechanic took apart the transmission of an identical washer and the bearings were no-name brand.

The 4.2 to 4.3 cu ft VMWs, may have no name bearings too (not sure tho) but they must be much better than the ones used on the pre-2018 washplate and porcelain tub VMWs, since the bearings on the 4.2 to 4.3 VMWs rarely ever go out. Those were 660 RPM so that’s part of the reason but I feel like the bigger drum would naturally make the bearings wear quicker - so it’s obvious that those used better bearings. Bearings can fail without water getting into it, fan motors have bearings and they don’t get water into them, and they go bad, so washer bearings go bad for they too. Also, the bearings used on modern washers probably corrode from normal wear and tear in some cases because the bearings are poor quality. If every modern washer used name brand bearings we’d see much less bearing problems, except for maybe GE’s because the main contributor on those was the tub seal not really the bearing itself.

If the older cabrios had high quality seals and bearings they’d be essentially bulletproof. Good quality bearings often last the lifetime of the machine itself.

 

[combo52]

It’s not the quality of the bearings

Hi whirlpool 862, you are doing way too much speculation and making up stuff you need to cite your sources

The motor bearings in these machines are running 10 to 20,000 RPMs and they never fail. It’s all about water seals that causes bearing failures and bearing failure seem to be way down we are not seeing nearly as many as we were 10 years ago.

We’re an active service company doing 50 service calls a week we work on more whirlpool, laundry products than anything, you know how many bad boards we’ve seen with that pressure switch problem whirlpool had?, We have seen exactly 3 of those go bad over the last three years. It was not nearly as prevalent a problem as people make out, but the problem is anytime something breaks they get on the Internet and start complaining.

John L

 

[whirlpool862]

It’s not the quality of the bearings

Hi whirlpool 862, you are doing way too much speculation and making up stuff you need to cite your sources

The motor bearings in these machines are running 10 to 20,000 RPMs and they never fail. It’s all about water seals that causes bearing failures and bearing failure seem to be way down we are not seeing nearly as many as we were 10 years ago.

We’re an active service company doing 50 service calls a week we work on more whirlpool, laundry products than anything, you know how many bad boards we’ve seen with that pressure switch problem whirlpool had?, We have seen exactly 3 of those go bad over the last three years. It was not nearly as prevalent a problem as people make out, but the problem is anytime something breaks they get on the Internet and start complaining.

John L

Motors use good heavy duty bearings, and the motor bearings are actually good quality. That’s just washer motor bearings. It’s quite common for the bearings on fan motors (both exhaust fan and box fan) to fail over time. Also, bearings do sometimes fail on motors as well. Better quality car wheel bearings fail less, like better quality washer bearings. Control board issues are a major problem with the modern Whirlpools. Good quality bearings, good quality seals, and a lower spin speed combined would significantly reduce bearing failures. The reason why the Maytag commercial units don’t get as much bearing fail is not because of a better seal, but it’s because of better bearings. The seals on the commercial an residential transmission are identical to each other.

Saying a washer bearing failure is always due to a bad seal is like saying wheel bearing failure on a car is always due to rainwater getting into the wheel bearing.

If a washer leaks water from the bottom, it most commonly has a bad seal, it does not matter if the bearing is bad or not. It could also be a drain pump issue or in some cases a crack in the outer drum (I’ve seen that online for persistently off balance washers), but most commonly that’s a worn seal. If it’s leaking from the drain hose then that means the hose is broken or is improperly installed. Oil leakage is also due to a bad seal. Also, friction and heat does wear out bearings, if it wears out wheel bearings on a car it can DEFINITELY wear out those of a washing machine, you just cannot see it.

On the older GE’s, yes, it was usually a seal issue that caused bearing failure which I mentioned earlier. It was almost never not a seal that caused bad bearings on a HYDROWAVE. The seal by the upper bearing sleeve is what failed

Good quality bearings do NOT prevent seal failure, but they do prevent bearing failure.

Also, the control board issues I’ve discussed earlier in my older threads is still a major issue, you're maybe lucky but I see so many reviews and reports about it. You seem to habe greet luck with Whirlpool. Also, no Whirlpool top loader spins at 20,000 RPM, I’m pretty sure if the motor spun at 20,000 RPM the drum would as well unless a bearing or something else was seizing up. That might be the max RPM of the motor but that’s not how fast they spin in reality. 2023 and 2024 “traditional” models are mainly the ones affected. It’s poorly engineered electronics, usually the washers just drain continuously. The pressure switches were the failure point. I knew people with newer Whirlpools who had the issue. It’s very prevalent and those boards are often backordered. If you want to discuss the boards go to my older threads about it. Whirlpool seems to slowly be discontinuing those units instead of redesigning the board. The traditional six-light VMW style seems to be getting phased out. In 2026 I think all the VMWs with the six lights will be discontinued.

Overloading the washer puts stress on the suspension rods, the drive hub, and the bearings. It puts stress on the components overall.

If a washer is never used, the bearing will not fail. That’s because friction, overloading, and seal failure cause the bearings to fail. Unused washers do not usually have bad bearings. If you don’t overload it or use too much detergent, the bearing will last longer.

I know all the failure modes of VMWs, any part of a VMW can fail, but it’s rarely ever the motor. Any water leaking from the gearcase is a seal issue, even if it’s a small drip. The way to test a bad seal isn’t to see if it’s loud or not, but it’s to see if there’s any leaks. A washer with a bad seal will typically have at least some water at the bottom or the floor unless it’s a very recent leak where the Gearcase catches some of the water. You can also watch for any water on the belt, stator, motor, belt cover, or splutch. If there is any water on the bottom or underneath of your washer, regardless of your brand, and it’s not coming from the drain pump or a hole in the drum, it is your tub seal.

A tub seal failure WILL cause a leak, it’s not a silent failure mode that slowly deteriorates the bearings, it does not only get into the bearings, but water will also get onto the floor or other components. I can see a bit of water leaking and some rust. Definitely bad seal on that one. That’s how the bearings on the older GE’s usually failed.

Example video of a GE HydroWave with a bad tub seal and bearing:

 

[Chetlaham]

Sometimes I wonder if it is the other way around. If a bad bearing generates excessive heat causing the seal to leak, where in turn water gets into the bearing making it appear like it was the seal alone that started it.

Interesting perspectives that make me think Whirlpool862 and for that I thank you.

 

[whirlpool862]

Sometimes I wonder if it is the other way around. If a bad bearing generates excessive heat causing the seal to leak, where in turn water gets into the bearing making it appear like it was the seal alone that started it.

Interesting perspectives that make me think Whirlpool862 and for that I thank you.

Friction is a known factor for wheel bearing issues on a car, so excess heat from friction is likely a cause for bad bearings on washers that don’t leak. If it does leak then it’s the seal as the cause.

Don’t think it’s the opposite. Overloading puts extra weight on the bearings (even if it doesn’t deteriorate the seal) and can also cause failure.

A lot of times, when washer bearings fail the washer noise stays stable and does not worsen over time.

 

[phillymatt53]

There is NO washing machine motor that runs at "10 to 20,000 RPM"
Those motors run at about 1800 RPM, as do dryer motors.
So there you have it.

The other month when I did the mod on my Maytag with the "warm wash" button, I got curious about what's under the agitator.
So I took it off the shaft and inspected the bearing seal, and it was fine.
Only a thin layer of detergent residue under the agitator area after 4 decades, which I wiped off with a damp rag.

 

[DADoES]

Direct-drive "pancake" washer motors, originating as the F&P SmartDrive w/o a transmission run at the agitation oscillation speed ... and at the target spin RPM of 1,010 RPM on their machines, increased to 1,100 RPM on the last model revision that was on the U.S. market.

F&P SmartLoad dryer motor (which is not a "pancake" motor but is variable speed, 3-phase, 190 volts, 85 Hz) runs at 2,340 RPM at full drum rotation speed.

 

[phillymatt53]

Direct-drive "pancake" washer motors, originating as the F&P SmartDrive w/o a transmission run at the agitation oscillation speed ... and at the target spin RPM of 1,010 RPM on their machines, increased to 1,100 RPM on the last model revision that was on the U.S. market.

F&P SmartLoad dryer motor (which is not a "pancake" motor but is variable speed, 3-phase, 190 volts, 85 Hz) runs at 2,340 RPM at full drum rotation speed.

Those motor speeds are sensible, and of course designed for the electronics that they run on.
However, I was talking about the traditional AC motors like the cap-start-run AC motors like my Maytag and Kenmore has.

 

[whirlpool862]

Those motor speeds are sensible, and of course designed for the electronics that they run on.
However, I was talking about the traditional AC motors like the cap-start-run AC motors like my Maytag and Kenmore has.

Yes, those motors are not 20,000 RPM. The motor spins at the same RPM as the drum, tho the maximum speed of the motor is usually higher than the maximum washer spin speed. The drum would only spin slower than the motor if something was binding up (like a severe bearing issue or an issue with the drive hub).

 

[Chetlaham]

Don't forget front load pulleys, where the motor rotates faster than the pulley for the drum.

 

[whirlpool862]

Don't forget front load pulleys, where the motor rotates faster than the pulley for the drum.

For top loaders this with the case tho, I think the motors on your typical VMW spin at the same speed of the drum. The drum would only be slower than the motor if the bearings were severely worn, the speed sensor is failed, or the hub is stripped.

Some of the VMWs go into the very low spin speed without the motor sounding like it’s running, not sure how that works but the older VMWs did that on the very low spin, where the motor would turn on for a bit, and then spin slowly with the motor off and resin pump running (mine does not actually), If the motor was on I’d hear a motor hum too, but the motor runs whole time on fast and intermediate spin (can’t really hear the motor on mine over the loud bearing, but all VMWs do have an AC motor). Not sure how that happens. I know about washers now but not sure how a washer can spin without a motor running. The big drum VMWs ran the motor for a bit when spinning slowly, and then turned off, spun for a bit, and then stopped. I’m not sure how that’s possible but there must be something that makes it spin without the motor running.