spin-doctor
Well-known member
What are the makes and models of the two examples you show in the pics of machines with 20K rpm motors? We can simply look up their manuals and specs and settle the debate easily with that.
Whirlpool and Samsung are reducing the maximum spin speed on their washers
- Thread starter whirlpool862
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What are the makes and models of the two examples you show in the pics of machines with 20K rpm motors? We can simply look up their manuals and specs and settle the debate easily with that.
I think you’re as equally capable as I am of doing that.
spin-doctor
Well-known member
Ok, I went back and read the older posts in this thread (just joining this discussion yesterday). Which I should have done prior to posting earlier. I see you and the other guy did post pics of washer motors with high rpms up to 17.5K. Not 20K, but certainly very fast nonetheless.
Very interesting, thanks for clarifying that. I guess my mind is stuck with the older tech of non-variable, fixed speed AC motors. The modern motors and their controllers make it possible to get the whole job done with no transmission other than a belt drive. Amazing, thanks for the education.
Many don't, and those that do don't run in it in the majority of their offered cycles.
So again, there is no heating.
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You said you would never own one without a heater. I’m telling you most do. Just because not all cycles don’t use it, is irrelevant. The heater is there. Use the cycles that use the heater then.
Hint: that’s almost every cycle besides the Normal cycle.
It seems some people are obsessed with how fast a machine spins, it may sound like I don’t care how fast a machine spins, but as long as items aren’t dripping wet, fine by me.
I know my Whirlpool spins slower than my Maytag A806, but honestly don’t see a drastic difference.
With the way my Whirlpool dryer is setup with the moisture sensor being grounded through a thermostat, it takes a good 6 to 20 minutes depending on the load size before I hear a audible ‘click’ from the thermostat (L120-10), after that it’ll advance the timer. On average, drying times are 45 to 60 minutes (sometimes longer) on the auto dry cycle.
Again, as long as items aren’t dripping wet and get dried in a reasonable amount of time is fine by me.
Another thing is if you spin things out faster, things wrinkle easier. Items seem to feel softer and fluffy when spun out between 505 to 618 rpm, definitely smell good with dryer sheets. My guess the more moisture is present during the evaporation process, the dryer sheets have a better chance of working as intended as ludicrous as that may sound.
I know my Whirlpool spins slower than my Maytag A806, but honestly don’t see a drastic difference.
With the way my Whirlpool dryer is setup with the moisture sensor being grounded through a thermostat, it takes a good 6 to 20 minutes depending on the load size before I hear a audible ‘click’ from the thermostat (L120-10), after that it’ll advance the timer. On average, drying times are 45 to 60 minutes (sometimes longer) on the auto dry cycle.
Again, as long as items aren’t dripping wet and get dried in a reasonable amount of time is fine by me.
Another thing is if you spin things out faster, things wrinkle easier. Items seem to feel softer and fluffy when spun out between 505 to 618 rpm, definitely smell good with dryer sheets. My guess the more moisture is present during the evaporation process, the dryer sheets have a better chance of working as intended as ludicrous as that may sound.
Decoys don't count as a heater or heating. Heating is very relevant when most cycles do indeed require heating to a specific target temperature somewhere between 60*F and 200*F. Looking at US machines, nothing on the control panel tells me what cycles use the heater and what the target temperature is. So as far as I'm concerned nothing is really being heated.
I'm certainly no expert, but I believe having a higher RPM / lower torque electric PMS motor makes it more energy efficient, and also mean you can have a smaller, lighter motor with thinner windings. So uses less copper masking it cheaper too. Downsides potentially more noise and the motor bearings need to be better or they'll wear out quicker.
spin-doctor
Well-known member
It probably is more efficient. And after seeing videos of the guts visible from the backside of these modern washers I was amazed to see a simple motor and belt setup. I mean that is amazing it can operate within the full range of speeds needed with that setup due to the modern electronic digital control systems they have. The old gearboxes and transmissions gone.
After having given up on modern washers after multiple motherboard failures, ripped clothes and other problems, I reverted to the classic washer tech I grew up with. Glad I did. But it is intriguing to see how mechanically simple these machines actually are. If only they could build them more robustly and also greatly improve the reliability and long-term durability of the electronics. Even if it required a belt replacement every 5 years, I'd be ok with that considering how easy it appears to replace belts on these new units. Or even if it needed a new motor every 7 years and the motor was no more than $250 and was almost as easy as belt replacement? I'd be ok with that too. And I'd be ok with the controlling electronics lasting a solid 10 years before they went bad, as long as the replacement was no more than $250. But from what my experiences were up to 5 years ago, none of that was true. Maybe there are some modern units that approach that level of reliability? Don't know.
As far the claimed efficiency and all that, from my experience it's a false economy and a net loss for the environment too. The washer and dryer set I now own is 35 years old. It will likely last me 20 years with minimal maintenance. When you factor in how many more washers and dryers I would have to buy over that same roughly 50 year timeframe? No contest for user savings or environmental impact. Even if its motor is 10% or 25% more efficient. Even if it uses 25% less water, but I now need to wash either fewer clothes each load or more loads to achieve the same end? The global cost to access the raw materials to build 5-7 more machines, shipping to the factory, smelting/manufacturing tooling/costs, shipping to the store or end user and then disposal impact etc? If a full energy accounting was made of that, I believe the old machine is far more cost efficient, energy efficient and better for the environment. I'm sticking with the old tech.
That said, it is cool to see what's technologically possible if they would prioritize truly durable and low replacement rate machines instead of designed obsolescence with a green leaf icon sticker on it to fool naive people into thinking their consumer purchase helps "heal" the planet.
Spin speeds on (front load) washing machines sold in the UK have got a little slower in recent years, at one time some manufacturers were doing 1,800rpm and 2.000rpm spin machines, although the gains over 1,600rpm were pretty marginal. 1,600rpm seems to be the max now.
2,000rpm Gorenje:
Spin speed Residual humidity - this is for EU electrolux models around 2008.
400 rpm 85 %
500 rpm 78 %
800 rpm 66 %
1000 rpm 60 %
1200 rpm 53 %
1400 rpm 52 %
1600 rpm 44 %
1800 rpm 42 %
On the washing machines I've used, all front load of course, all but one (which had a design/manufacturing defect) the seal failed and leaked before the bearing went. One we had in the 80s had a vent hole between the bearings and rusty water leaked out of there for many months before the bearings went, on my current one the bearings had no trace of play in them before the cycle when the inner one started loudly squealing (presumably jammed by the rust) .
I have hard water so the seal gets encrusted in hard limescale which would stop it flexing and presumably cause it to wear and leak more quickly.
Someone mentioned truck bearings, those I believe are normally roller bearings, so can take much higher loading but lower maximum RPM than ball bearings used in washing machines.
(The rated rpm of the brushed motor on my 1400rpm front load machine is 15,000rpm.)
2,000rpm Gorenje:
Spin speed Residual humidity - this is for EU electrolux models around 2008.
400 rpm 85 %
500 rpm 78 %
800 rpm 66 %
1000 rpm 60 %
1200 rpm 53 %
1400 rpm 52 %
1600 rpm 44 %
1800 rpm 42 %
On the washing machines I've used, all front load of course, all but one (which had a design/manufacturing defect) the seal failed and leaked before the bearing went. One we had in the 80s had a vent hole between the bearings and rusty water leaked out of there for many months before the bearings went, on my current one the bearings had no trace of play in them before the cycle when the inner one started loudly squealing (presumably jammed by the rust) .
I have hard water so the seal gets encrusted in hard limescale which would stop it flexing and presumably cause it to wear and leak more quickly.
Someone mentioned truck bearings, those I believe are normally roller bearings, so can take much higher loading but lower maximum RPM than ball bearings used in washing machines.
(The rated rpm of the brushed motor on my 1400rpm front load machine is 15,000rpm.)
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I'm not convinced that's the case, but perhaps you mean liquid detergents.
We've very hard water, and I didn't descale our current machine for the first 3 years, and had two elements blow and the coin trap filter got stuck in place by limescale. For the last 13 years, I've descaled it annually and have not needed to change an element again. I suspect regular descaling would likely make the shaft seal last longer too, as it gets encrusted with limescale so loses its flexibility.
I've never needed to descale previous machines, although in hindsight that was probably a mistake. I have dismantled the drums on a couple of previous machines, and they had a very thick layer of limescale, at least a quarter inch or more over the tub.
phillymatt53
Well-known member
Thank you!
I read your somwhat lengthly posting, and conclude that it's certainly true what's been going on in the manufacture of just about everything these days.
I've highlighted several key points of it, because it triggers my own feelings about stuff.
And yes, "fooling the public" has gotten rediculous and annoying, to put it mildly.
It's how Marketing and Advertising has developed into, to benefit corporations and the "elites" that invest in them - to the consumer's dismay.
A lot of brand names that were once honest, reliable, and adored by faithful consumers, are now just "vintage name only" crap makers now.
An older married couple that I knew, and are now "gone" swore by the Zenith brand name.
They always purchased Zenith, and told me that their 1964 Zenith console tv lasted for decades of enjoyment.
Eventually, it was not easily repairable, so they purchased a new Zenith tv in the early 2000s.
The set died after only 3 years due to having a bad picture tube that damaged the whole chassis.
Apparently, the picture tube was "outsourced" from a factory in Mexico, and Zenith had to replace thousands of chassis and picture tubes, which put them in debt/bankruptcy.
I know this for a fact, since my repair shop had to order many of these "recall" kits, which kept us busy tearing those sets down and rebuilding them.
LG, previously known as Goldstar, bought out Zenith, and then continued to manufacturer tv sets, among other products using the Zenith name.
Which in my opinion, were not as robust as the old Zeniths.
I've seen this trend of using old, original brand names as a way to seduce the consumer by using "Brand Recognition" as a marketing tool.
But you can't "fool me" - it just ain't the same stuff.
Those old-time respected slogans...
Zenith!.... the Quality goes in, before the name goes ON!
RCA.....The most Trusted name in sound!
Westinghouse.... You can Sure, if it's Westinghouse!
......The list is endless, and now nothing but (outsourced) bullcrap comes from them.
Why are you mad at capitalism, bro?
Yes, but bearings in jet engines can withstand over 10,000 RPM without failing. Maybe washer manufacturers could borrow just a tiny piece of that technology. Tiny, so it wouldn't be prohibitively expensive. I personally think anything above 800 results in diminishing effectiveness. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Automatic washer, motor speeds on modern three phase belt, driven models
Hi Matt, what I don’t know about repairing vintage electronics from the 60s and 70s and 80s would fill a book. What you don’t know about washing machines, dishwashers dryers, and other home appliances would fill another book.
When I make a statement that modern belt driven front load washer motors travel between 10 and 20,000 RPMs, you need to take it to the bank I am not here to prove things to you.
I’ve been repairing appliances for more than 50 years. I’m still working 65 hours a week repairing appliances. I generally know what I’m talking about. If I make a mistake, I’ll be the first to admit it. I am not going to take the time to justify every doubt that you have, you’re lucky I walked upstairs to the parts room and took the five pictures I did.
I didn’t say anything about Motors and clothes dryers, and I don’t know of any clothes dryer that has a motor that goes over 2000 RPMs, they’re usually 1750 in fact.
The really neat thing is all the direct drive front load and there are of course the Fisher Paycal top load design machines where the motor only goes as fast as the basket or impeller or agitator where the motor speed can vary 0 RPMs to 1600 RPMs.
John L
Hi Matt, what I don’t know about repairing vintage electronics from the 60s and 70s and 80s would fill a book. What you don’t know about washing machines, dishwashers dryers, and other home appliances would fill another book.
When I make a statement that modern belt driven front load washer motors travel between 10 and 20,000 RPMs, you need to take it to the bank I am not here to prove things to you.
I’ve been repairing appliances for more than 50 years. I’m still working 65 hours a week repairing appliances. I generally know what I’m talking about. If I make a mistake, I’ll be the first to admit it. I am not going to take the time to justify every doubt that you have, you’re lucky I walked upstairs to the parts room and took the five pictures I did.
I didn’t say anything about Motors and clothes dryers, and I don’t know of any clothes dryer that has a motor that goes over 2000 RPMs, they’re usually 1750 in fact.
The really neat thing is all the direct drive front load and there are of course the Fisher Paycal top load design machines where the motor only goes as fast as the basket or impeller or agitator where the motor speed can vary 0 RPMs to 1600 RPMs.
John L
spin-doctor
Well-known member
Hey Matt, thanks for the kind comments. It's interesting to hear you're an experienced TV repairman. I grew up with a kid who's dad was a TV repairman and we used to hang out in his basement shop checking out the tools and methods he used for repair. I remember being strongly warned not to touch anything inside, even if unplugged, because of trapped energy held within the big caps. And that the potentials around the yoke were in the 1000s of volts. An open TV could zap you very badly if you didn't know what you were doing.
That was back in the 70s and early 80s when repairing TVs was a job that could buy a nice house in a suburban neighborhood, support a stay at home wife and 3 kids. And to be able to do that job you had to be intelligent, educated and have real talent to troubleshoot and repair electronics. Circuit troubleshooting is not a low IQ profession, I know because I've tried it a time or two with rather unimpressive results that involved liberating "trapped smoke" from the insides of various components
. Repairing TVs added real value because back then televisions were expensive and worth repairing. Especially considering how well built they were and how long they would last.You mention Zenith - yes that was the brand of TV we had growing up. Like all our other appliances, it lasted my entire childhood into adulthood and several years beyond that too. When it was replaced it still worked, but my mom wanted a newer set with a bigger picture and remote control (I was the remote control before
).And yeah, so many once American great brand names are now just hollowed out ghosts of what they once were. Long ago the companies were gutted by outsourcing and bean counters chasing the last dollar as we transitioned from expensive quality to cheap disposable quantity. Most of the old names have been bought for pennies on the dollar by the Chinese with products bearing no resemblance to the originals wearing their names like a skinsuit. A sad reality based on our long history of corporate and governmental decisions unfolding during my entire life that have finally led us to where we are now.
Surely you do.
I've stated that about F&P's toploading AeroSmart/SmartLoad dryers. Here're the specs from a service manual.Attachments
phillymatt53
Well-known member
That operating condition of a "smart" dryer is utterly rediculous and utterly over-complicated. - and likely prone to some damned electronics issue.Surely you do.
All that crap Just to dry clothes?
My Maytag DG482 dryer is naturally the "traditional" design.... a motor, a belt, and a basic mechnical timer.
And it's Always delivered fine performance over the decades, without all that Solid State Microprocessor garbage.
While I'm not a "hater" of electronics, an appliance like that is just overkill.
My operating SmartLoad dryers are 21yo (S/N Jul 2004) and 15+yo (S/N Mar 2010). No electronics issues have occurred. The last time prior that I dried a quilt in a traditional dryer (WP), it rolled up and the interior was damp at end of the designated Bulky Items cycle. Reversing tumble prevents that from happening, the quilt is always fully dry w/o need of intervention. It has a self-scraping lint filter (drops the lint into a collection bucket, easily emptied) so airflow doesn't get progressively-obstructed when running linty loads such as towels.
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