Whirlpool's new dishwasher motors

[tomturbomatic]

I can't believe that people are so concerned about having a dishwasher be silent. To those of us who can remember having to wash dishes by hand after every meal every day, the noise from a dishwasher was music to our less delicate ears, although old Hotpoints seemed noisier than other brands.

The whole reason for the tiny pumps is that the tall tubs have such a shallow sump that they cannot hold enough water over the pump intake to allow a more powerful pump to maintain a constant feed. It's ironic that the taller tub, with a greater distance from bottom to top, and needing more power to force the water to the top of the tank, has to do it with a smaller pump. There is little reason for tall tubs except that, by design, they cannot use as much water so people were sold a shortcoming as a feature. Then, even with reduced water capacity in the sump, they reduced the after rinses to one. People with back and joint problems find bending down to unload the lower rack can be uncomfortable. The government energy regulators, however, demanded energy and water consumption standards and the appliance manufacturers got paid off for coming up with appliances that met or exceeded them. As stated above, all of this is in place of having utility monopolies spend money to modernize our power generation and distribution systems, money that instead goes to investors, and they are the ones, not consumers, who are running things in a government of the monied, by the monied and for the monied.

 

[henene4]

Silent dishwasher

Why is it a fault to be concerned about the noise of an applaince? If you buy a home, you take care if it is near a highway or airport. At least if you can afford it.
If you have a house/flat with an open kitchen, or you work a lot in the kitchen, or you just hate these back-ground noises, a silent DW is worth any penny it cost more.
If I sit in our kitchen, and our fully-loaded 45dB Bosch DW runs and nothing else is turned on, it sounds rather hearable. But if than our fridge turns on, and is just about as loud as the DW, you just recognize how silent everything is. If you than heat a cup of milk in the microwave, you suddenly ask your self "Is the DW still on?".
And the smaller pumps are there because they are smaller. And less water is used. The sump is designed by the pump-specifications, not the other way arround.

 

[mrb627]

Lifestyle

Nowadays, kitchens are part of the living space, not in a separate room behind a swinging door. So, silence is paramount!

Malcolm

 

[murando531]

I think there are varying degrees of noise level that don't relate to any dB rating. In my opinion, the Whirlpool Power Clean and Voyager platform dishwashers with at least a Quiet Partner II package are beautifully quiet. Can you hear that it is running? Yes, but what you hear is a low, barely noticeable hum, and the muffled sloshing of water inside. One you're about 6 feet away, you can't even tell they're on unless it's the ONLY thing running in the house at the moment.

Now, take the BOL Whirlpool Durawash machines, with the spray tower, and better yet, the GE dishwashers with the tower, THOSE are unacceptably loud. It isn't the motor that is the problem, it's the overly rhythmic racket of the spray from the tower revolving around the tub, plus the lack of any good insulation at all. On top of that, the detergent cups are loud enough to startle you if you don't expect the sound or know what it is.

I feel there is a fine line between noise that is soothing versus noise that is disturbing when it comes to machines like washers and dishwashers. I myself don't desire any machine to be dead quiet because I do want to know that it is functioning properly, but I agree that I don't want a machine that disturbs the peace when you're trying to watch a movie or have a conversation in the kitchen. When the manufacturer pays attention to the details and there is proper sound insulation, a dishwasher with a larger motor and a self clean disposal system can be nearly silent.

I have noticed that while the new WP models with the filter are extremely quiet, the kick panel on the bottom has no padding at all, whereas the new Maytags that still use the same 2.7 amp motor they used in the Voyager design have a piece of thick insulation adhered to the kickplate, and both machines sound nearly alike.

 

[DADoES]

 
There are several sources of ambient noise in my house so the dishwasher is of no concern.  I run a 12" Windmaker fan on low in my kitchen/dining room/living room 24/7, aimed toward the office room ... where two desktop computers run 24/7, one with the side cover off and a small fan on the floor blowing toward it to keep the four hard drives (three internal, one external) from overheating.  It's eerily-quiet if all of that is turned off.

 

[jerrod6]

I kinda agree with what you are saying tom except that I think the reason the smaller pumps are in DW is because they use less energy.  The  way the manufacturers see it is that the less electric their appliance uses the more money they get from the government in rebates.  Never mind that these small pumps take forever to clean anything while using 104F water.  I would much rather have a larger motor that uses a higher temp of water and that can get a load of very dirty dishes clean in 1 1/2 hours than many of the current energy star models that use 104F temperatures and take over 3 hours to get the job done.

 

Never mind that these DW are using 104F water but telling you that you must supply 120F water to it.  So you are using energy to heat the water outside of the machine and saving nothing in the end.

 

[a440]

It is good to hear that there are Dishwashers available that can wash and sanitize dishes with great results today.  

With all the talk about quiet dishwashers I can't understand why this is an issue for an vintage appliance collector.

I run my KDS-18 or KDS-17A when I want to hear them run.  Of course they are always filled to the max.  I however look forward to hearing them run.  I did insulate them both with padding and such around the bottom so I could hear the amazing wash action through the door.  I love hearing it.  Sounds changing with each type of load. Detergent cups snapping open.  Wash water becoming thicker with detergent. Snapping of the drain solenoid.  Then of course hearing the Hygienic Drying from the heater during the dry portion.  

Now If I had to hear this for 2 or more hours that might be a different story.  40 minutes or less of washing is fine for me.  And I mostly use the Sanitary cycle.  And when I use both dishwashers at the same time....what a treat!  

Music to my ears!

 

 

[gelaundry4ever]

cheese enchilada pan test

These new Whirlpool dishwashers will never ever, ever, ever pass a cheese enchilada pan test unless you use Cascade complete citrus breeze dishwasher detergent in conjunction with Cascade crystal clear rinse aid! Shame on Whirlpool! Who do they think they are?

 

[aladude]

Yeah, yeah, shame on whirlpool, a pox on GE, bring back the filter flo, we got it, man.

 

[washingpowder]

I'm very unsure what to think about it all, to be honest.
Back in Europe, my Mom uses a Bosch, a middle-of-line model that's approximately 10 years old. It uses approx 11L(3gal.) and 1.05kW per cycle. No matter the detergent(Her being a fan of Finish, me being a fan of eco, non-phosphated) or the cycle, even on the 30 min 113F, everything comes out sparkling clean. Mind you though, the dishwasher heats the water from cold, which I believe activates all enzymes correctly. Rinsing twice in cold saves energy; I believe it's the 220V that allows to maximize the potency of the heater, rather than running it for a couple of hours. Also, I believe the filters are cleaned once a year, when son comes over for Christmas.
Aunt on the other hand, with her Whirlpool that guzzles 25L(6.6gal.) and over 2kW per cycle, finds herself heavily pre-rinsing each article, as a) filters and spray arms clog b) the machine is incapable of removing even easy particles such as rice c) only Cascade equivalent works, as anything else wouldn't remove tea and coffee stains. Noticeably, her plastics, once translucent, come in a variety of colors. One would think it's the temperature issue, but water is heated piping hot each wash, and scalding to the touch.
I personally used a Miele G7856, which was absolutely the most fantastic piece of machinery in my opinion. Quite powerful, would flip over any lighter piece (say, a glass)in the bottom rack on heavier cycles. Completely and entirely customizable, say wash time, temperature and temp hold for each cycle, each wash and each rinse, water level, number of rinses, number of pre-washes, you name it. Normal cycle, 25 minutes, provided sparkling results no matter how clumsy with cooking one's partner might be. Shortest, 6min cycle was perfect for everyday, non-burned/stuck-on soils. Variable pump speed allowed the gentlest wash for china and crystals. However, on the heavy cycle would only use 0.6kW(with both hot and cold water connected) or 1.5kW(cold fill only). Mind you, said cycle would, by default, heat main wash to 70C(160F). Short cycle respectively, 0.3kW and 0.7kW. Only detergent used was simple potassium hydroxide, cheap and effective. Unfortunately, the machine was left at someone's apartment, who seems rather reluctant to ship it here, as had been promised. On the other hand, where would one find an apartment in NYC with an adequate power supply? (3N AC 400V, 3x16A). It seems possible to connect it to a 220V supply, but that could still be an issue, and probably decrease time and energy efficiency.
All this, however, doesn't seem to apply to the US market. My first dishwasher, GE Potscrubber, was the most ironic appliance I have ever seen. Couldn't wash anything unless pre-soaked, no matter the cycle/detergent, and kept leaving bits and pieces of semi-ground food. It might be an issue with lack of filters and phosphates; however at 10.5gal. and God only knows how much electricity, one would expect a better performer. Electrolux ICON, in a fancy Wall St. apartment, was rather less fancy than the design. Absolutely nothing, not even glasses, would get cleaned in the top rack. Moreover, dishes would be left with sticky, grainy residue covering half of them, with visible spray patterns. And now, with a portable Maytag Jetclean, all the wares are finally clean. A little finicky about the detergent and stuck-on foods, but majority of the time everything emerges clean. However, I'm pretty sure the efficiency is way, way below European models.
Could anyone explain why is it so hard to make a working piece of equipment since it does seem possible? I'm positive the trend of installing a 220V line to the dishwasher would be accepted - after all, plenty of Bosch washers, electric ovens and ranges, water heaters and other devices are happily making ConEd, or whatever the devil's name is happy, and customers accepted the need of power for certain abilities and privileges. Why don't we leave the 110 dishwashing equipment to the less-fortunate Children of Manhattan, and have at least a couple of 220V models available. Assuming it's the power supply causing all drama; if not, then I'm puzzled.

 

[norgeway]

As long as

I can pay the electric bill and the water bill...I will use vintage!These silly things made today are good examples of just plain governmental meddling,If you wash dishes by hand, you waste much more water than the most inefficient dishwasher ever made!!!As my Dad used to say, Strain at a gnat and swallow a camel!

 

[washer111]

The older machines, while using more water often didn't heat the water as much, if at all. So the energy used would be your water heater, and that would come out at about the same in all seriousness. 

 

I don't have an issue using a machine connected to hot water, especially if its heated more efficiently than the electric heater in the d/w (i.e. Gas, heatpump, solar, geothermal etc). Cold rinses only make the dishes cold again, necessitating a full heatup from cold, whereas a hot connection would allow the machine to stay moderately warm, saving around 50% of the heating. 

 

It seems most dishwashers dispense detergent into the cold water, but until you get into the "lukewarm" zone, the enzymes are doing next to nothing (ever notice how powdered dishwasher detergent doesn't dissolve readily if you use it for soaking intensely-dirty stuffs?). 

That said, starting cold and quickly ramping up to very hot is a sure way to get dishes perfectly clean every time!

 

[logixx]

I tried connecting my Bosch to the hot line (140F from the first drop if I purged) but didn't see any benefit, unfortunately. It fills with steaming water, starts to circulate... and the water is cold. Since the machine heats during the prewash anyway, the main wash starts with slightly warm water and the lukewarm phase lasts five minutes at most, as the heater takes cold water to 120F in ten minutes. The rinses use preheated water.

@ washer112 - how long does your DD take to heat one fill? I suppose it heats very quickly.

 

[washer111]

Its generally about 2ºC each minute.

Coming from a 50º tap (which I purge), will raise the temperature of the tub about 6ºC during the fill/circulation phase. Since there is no pre-wash, the tub doesn't get an initial tempering (which I assume is why American machines use 1-2 prewashes).
It is mostly the rinses where the savings are found, having the hot water preserves the tub temperature to about 45-50º, which means the heater only runs 10 minutes in the final rinse*, for a 60º rinse.

*On the Heavy/Heavy Eco cycles, the machine's heating will time out if the water isn't hot enough. There is no warning in the manual of this. And this is with a cold supply that gets into lukewarm during summer! The typical temperature it stops at in this case is about 55º

 

[gelaundry4ever]

power clean cheese enchilada test

Did I tell you about the time I did a cheese enchilada pan test in a power clean? I went to Texas School for the Blind when I did this. I put it in the front of the rack. they had a power clean dishwasher. I stayed in dorm 573 during the 2008-2009 school year. I put it straight into the dishwasher - no prescrubbing whatsoever. one of the residential instructors couldn't believe I did that. When I got done with my dinner, I put my dishes in, put some cascade in and fired it up on pots/pans. this was the electronic model. When it was done, nothing remained. Nothing! I'd like to see the new Maytags that are coming out pass this test! let alone stuck on ribs and other stuff!

 

[murando531]

This thread is pretty old but I suppose it being my own, it gives me a chance to reflect on how my opinions have evolved in 6 years, and I gotta say, I used to be pretty ignorant. I hadn’t yet given this platform of dishwashers a chance yet and completely dismissed it. I’ve now owned three; two premium models and one MOL model, and they’ve all been fantastic performers. The pumps in those pictures in the original post are also not accurate at all because the repair parts site I linked them from had the wrong image thumbnails for the motor part numbers. All three GlobalWash machines have much beefier unidirectional wash pumps.

And yes, I’d say that if Whirlpool’s new platform on the Maytag/KitchenAid dishwashers can handle a pizza, cake, and three pb&j’s, I’d bet it’ll do a perfect job with a heavily soiled cheese enchilada pan.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

powerwave and wash motor

I too have given the powerwave equivalent a chance. Not as bad as I thought it was. I wonder how the global wash system pumps got beefier. What direction does the pump spin at? How many RPM's? I'm still amazed how such a small pump can pack a punch. Model 665.13222.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

convert

Andrew, you made a convert! I wish I would've given it a chance when my previous whirlpool point/voyager before the Frigidaire left powdery residue stuck in the glasses! I guess the alternating wash action does work in that area!

 

[gelaundry4ever]

The one sound I will dearly miss

is the grumbling noise while the machine is filling with water, as well as the woooosh sound.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

chetlaham...

I totally forgot about this post! Sadly, today's dishwashers have gotten worse than ever before. Pumps that don't last and garbage disposers eliminated in many of them. I wouldn't trust any of them! I just want clean dishes!