The simple biological fact is, anything under 140F wash temperature is considered unsanitary, and these manufacturers and/or governments will eventually be sued into abandoning this Soylent Green nonsense. If nothing else, wait until the bacterial and viral epidemics start, like in most (I almost said other) third-world countries.
Who thinks moderns of washers of today should bring back true wash and rinse tempatures?
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mrb627
Well-known member
Sigh
I thought you were strictly a cold water washing house?!?
What gives, P?
Malcolm
I thought you were strictly a cold water washing house?!?
What gives, P?
Malcolm
Our Government DOES Have The right To Regulate Energy Use
Because myself and MILLIONS of other Americans elected the goverment, and as I alluded to earlier I have had almost no one complain about new washers, Consumer Reports for instance has noted NO reduction in cleaning effectiveness of new washers and DWs, I fact as many AW members have stated that their new HE washers are more effective in nearly all ways.
If anyone has proof of these silly claims that new washers do not get the job done lets see it.
John L.
Because myself and MILLIONS of other Americans elected the goverment, and as I alluded to earlier I have had almost no one complain about new washers, Consumer Reports for instance has noted NO reduction in cleaning effectiveness of new washers and DWs, I fact as many AW members have stated that their new HE washers are more effective in nearly all ways.
If anyone has proof of these silly claims that new washers do not get the job done lets see it.
John L.
Um ...
"If anyone has proof of these silly claims that new washers do not get the job done lets see it. "
I believe we've just told you.
Our clothes are not as clean and the cycles take at least twice as long.
That certainly qualifies as "not getting the job done".
"If anyone has proof of these silly claims that new washers do not get the job done lets see it. "
I believe we've just told you.
Our clothes are not as clean and the cycles take at least twice as long.
That certainly qualifies as "not getting the job done".
Didn't Frigilux once compare his Speed Queen to his front loader?
[Found it]
www.automaticwasher.org
[Found it]
Test Load Results: Speed Queen AWN 542
Heavily-stained load of kitchen whites: Here is the information for loads done in both the front-loader and the Speed Queen top-loader 2010 Frigidaire Front-Loader: Cycle: Sanitize + Extra Rinse Cycle Time: 112 minutes Detergent + 1/4 cup liquid chlorine bleach Hot Water Used: 6...
www.automaticwasher.org
"Our Government DOES Have The right To Regulate Energy Use"
By what constitutional authority? The DOE didn't exist until 1977, and was created to handle nuclear material. Now they're dictating how much hot water I'm allowed to use to clean my clothes. Like all other federal agencies it's become bloated beyond any hope of salvagability, and imo will shortly end along with the rest of our federal government in bankruptcy. And it will be precisely because of utter nonsense like this.
Only in socialist countries do governments have the right to regulate energy use, i.e. when GOVERNMENTS ARE THE ONES PAYING FOR IT.
What's desperately needed in our country imo is an amendment to our federal Constitution, to specifically ban unfunded government mandates. It would take care of everything from Energy Star to government-mandated health care and automobile insurance.
By what constitutional authority? The DOE didn't exist until 1977, and was created to handle nuclear material. Now they're dictating how much hot water I'm allowed to use to clean my clothes. Like all other federal agencies it's become bloated beyond any hope of salvagability, and imo will shortly end along with the rest of our federal government in bankruptcy. And it will be precisely because of utter nonsense like this.
Only in socialist countries do governments have the right to regulate energy use, i.e. when GOVERNMENTS ARE THE ONES PAYING FOR IT.
What's desperately needed in our country imo is an amendment to our federal Constitution, to specifically ban unfunded government mandates. It would take care of everything from Energy Star to government-mandated health care and automobile insurance.
Our Government DOES Have The right To Regulate Energy Use
NYC Prove It
Jeff G, even the supreme court upheld the EPA rights this week, you are a little out of touch with the way this country has run for more than 50 years, sorry.
NYC Prove It
Jeff G, even the supreme court upheld the EPA rights this week, you are a little out of touch with the way this country has run for more than 50 years, sorry.
Not Eactly Energy Per Se
But the EPA clearly has the authority to monitor and protect the quality of air in regard to pollutants, and that is where much of the powers to regulate power plants resides.
The other power though limited comes from the EPA being able to promote energy efficiency but cannot mandate. The Energy Star program is totally voluntary but has seen success.
Of course the federal government has vast powers to regulate interstate commerce. Since electric and gas lines often run through several states there you are then.
What is interesting is the EPA was created by president Nixon via executive order, and not by Congress. This has lead many critics to claim the agency is "illegal" and does not have any authority.
Nixon basically did what Obama and many other presidents have done; use his power as head of the executive branch of government to reorganize various parts into creating the EPA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reorganization_Plan_No._3
It is also important to remember since the EPA was created by a president subsequent executive orders could alter its mission. Also Congress can simply do so as well or more importantly withhold funding to bring the agency to heel.
en.wikipedia.org
But the EPA clearly has the authority to monitor and protect the quality of air in regard to pollutants, and that is where much of the powers to regulate power plants resides.
The other power though limited comes from the EPA being able to promote energy efficiency but cannot mandate. The Energy Star program is totally voluntary but has seen success.
Of course the federal government has vast powers to regulate interstate commerce. Since electric and gas lines often run through several states there you are then.
What is interesting is the EPA was created by president Nixon via executive order, and not by Congress. This has lead many critics to claim the agency is "illegal" and does not have any authority.
Nixon basically did what Obama and many other presidents have done; use his power as head of the executive branch of government to reorganize various parts into creating the EPA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reorganization_Plan_No._3
It is also important to remember since the EPA was created by a president subsequent executive orders could alter its mission. Also Congress can simply do so as well or more importantly withhold funding to bring the agency to heel.
United States Environmental Protection Agency - Wikipedia
I have NO gripe personally with our Miele FL. It cleans loads fine. It can take "forever" if one so desires, or doesn't care about modifying cycles or region settings.
It also DOES NOT Bullsh*t around with temperature. If you select a temperature, you GET it. There isn't any "diddling" to meet government regulations.
I DO NOT agree that a government should tell people how to wash their clothes or dishes.
Its been repeatedly stated here by members that the effectiveness of Oxygen Bleaching (and Enzymes, to a point) increases dramatically with temperature. And John, you have stated the importance of using adequate detergent doses and HOT water.
If you cannot reach those temperatures, then your clothes are not being truly cleaned. Body temperature is NOT enough for many loads - especially greasy or heavily stained loads that require bleaching action. After about 130* (55C), you start to loose enzyme action. You don't get it, however, below around 90*F (30*C) - or its reduced quite a lot.
Why am I so opinionated? Well, whilst we get Hot-Water when we want it here, our government specifically PREVENTS us saving energy - through a mandate designed to prevent Legionella.
So all water heaters MUST reach at least 140* (60*), and MUST be set as such. How does that make environmentalists feel?
It also DOES NOT Bullsh*t around with temperature. If you select a temperature, you GET it. There isn't any "diddling" to meet government regulations.
I DO NOT agree that a government should tell people how to wash their clothes or dishes.
Its been repeatedly stated here by members that the effectiveness of Oxygen Bleaching (and Enzymes, to a point) increases dramatically with temperature. And John, you have stated the importance of using adequate detergent doses and HOT water.
If you cannot reach those temperatures, then your clothes are not being truly cleaned. Body temperature is NOT enough for many loads - especially greasy or heavily stained loads that require bleaching action. After about 130* (55C), you start to loose enzyme action. You don't get it, however, below around 90*F (30*C) - or its reduced quite a lot.
Why am I so opinionated? Well, whilst we get Hot-Water when we want it here, our government specifically PREVENTS us saving energy - through a mandate designed to prevent Legionella.
So all water heaters MUST reach at least 140* (60*), and MUST be set as such. How does that make environmentalists feel?
"Only Low-Use Machines can Wash in Hot"
Well - this clearly cannot be true.
Members here have documented the Energy-Star machines (including front loaders) that temper the incoming water to some pathetic temperature, regardless of what is selected.
They then have to activate ELECTRIC boosting heaters (where fitted) to gain better performance than simply taking the water "straight."
In lower-end machines without heaters - the end result is a much colder wash, when the standing temperature of the washer + clothes is considered.
Well - this clearly cannot be true.
Members here have documented the Energy-Star machines (including front loaders) that temper the incoming water to some pathetic temperature, regardless of what is selected.
They then have to activate ELECTRIC boosting heaters (where fitted) to gain better performance than simply taking the water "straight."
In lower-end machines without heaters - the end result is a much colder wash, when the standing temperature of the washer + clothes is considered.
You must have some very forgiving
users combo52 or given the close proximity to Metro DC, they must be as dumb as the politicians we elect.
Either that or you service a very small area indeed.
You want proof?
Go to Amazon. Type in any model SQ TL. Read the comments. Over 70% have something that reads "......I got rid of my _______ (fill in the blank HE machine) and got a SQ. My laundry is now clean". Ad infinitum. Or just check out a host of review sites like epinions for instance.
Sorry to disagree with you, but there is no proven need to castrate a washing machines ability to properly wash clothes. None. There is no water shortage on this planet. Never has been, never will be.
The EPA has gotten way out of whack with arbitrary rules that make no sense and result in a plethora of garbage appliances that don't last and perform poorly.
In the interest of "being green", I now have to pay $5.99 for 20 Cascade "pods" to wash my dishes. Funny, I used to buy a 75 oz box of Cascade or Finish for a lot less money and had clean dishes along with less cost per use to boot. Explain that one to me if you dare. So it has Algore's blessing. So it uses less water. Big flippin deal. How, as a consumer, am I making out financially here?
Explain how we're all "benefiting" with $4.00 gallon gas? Come next month, us poor sods in PA will see our electricity bills go up. Way up thanks to the moron in charge and his war on coal fired power plants. My salary sure as hell has not increased to keep pace let me tell you.
So all in all, myself along with millions of other Americans, are paying a lot more for our so-called green energy, forced to buy machines not mandated by market driven ideas or demand but rather asinine goobermint intervention, pay to buy special cleaners for these piss poor excuses of a machine and sit back and eat up another Algore speech on how the world will end as we know it unless we all bow down and pay homage to the all knowing, all intelligent EPA and Al's ideals.
I suppose this makes sense to some people but not to me.
FYI CR, a rather poor substitute for toilet paper by the way, will NEVER test a SQ TL. Never. Even if you or I show up on their doorstep with one, it will never happen. Why? Because it does not fit their "green" agenda. CR only tests things that dovetail with their leftist idea of how the world ought to be. In fact, I do have some old copies from the 50's and 60's, intact where they actually tested firearms! Can you believe that? So why don't they test them now? Why don't they test entry level motorbikes? They used to.
I put about as much value in CR as I do whenever the moron-in-chief opens his mouth.
Which is to say, never.
users combo52 or given the close proximity to Metro DC, they must be as dumb as the politicians we elect.
Either that or you service a very small area indeed.
You want proof?
Go to Amazon. Type in any model SQ TL. Read the comments. Over 70% have something that reads "......I got rid of my _______ (fill in the blank HE machine) and got a SQ. My laundry is now clean". Ad infinitum. Or just check out a host of review sites like epinions for instance.
Sorry to disagree with you, but there is no proven need to castrate a washing machines ability to properly wash clothes. None. There is no water shortage on this planet. Never has been, never will be.
The EPA has gotten way out of whack with arbitrary rules that make no sense and result in a plethora of garbage appliances that don't last and perform poorly.
In the interest of "being green", I now have to pay $5.99 for 20 Cascade "pods" to wash my dishes. Funny, I used to buy a 75 oz box of Cascade or Finish for a lot less money and had clean dishes along with less cost per use to boot. Explain that one to me if you dare. So it has Algore's blessing. So it uses less water. Big flippin deal. How, as a consumer, am I making out financially here?
Explain how we're all "benefiting" with $4.00 gallon gas? Come next month, us poor sods in PA will see our electricity bills go up. Way up thanks to the moron in charge and his war on coal fired power plants. My salary sure as hell has not increased to keep pace let me tell you.
So all in all, myself along with millions of other Americans, are paying a lot more for our so-called green energy, forced to buy machines not mandated by market driven ideas or demand but rather asinine goobermint intervention, pay to buy special cleaners for these piss poor excuses of a machine and sit back and eat up another Algore speech on how the world will end as we know it unless we all bow down and pay homage to the all knowing, all intelligent EPA and Al's ideals.
I suppose this makes sense to some people but not to me.
FYI CR, a rather poor substitute for toilet paper by the way, will NEVER test a SQ TL. Never. Even if you or I show up on their doorstep with one, it will never happen. Why? Because it does not fit their "green" agenda. CR only tests things that dovetail with their leftist idea of how the world ought to be. In fact, I do have some old copies from the 50's and 60's, intact where they actually tested firearms! Can you believe that? So why don't they test them now? Why don't they test entry level motorbikes? They used to.
I put about as much value in CR as I do whenever the moron-in-chief opens his mouth.
Which is to say, never.
Politics in a thread again where it doesn't belong. Politics should be discussed in the Dirty Laundry Room.
Wait a second...
What the hell are you throwing together?
1st: How many SQ TLs have been sold? How many HE machines? And why do all people write reviews about their SQ Tls in which they mentioned a bad HE machine? Yea, maybe, because they bought a SQ TL because they did not like the HE machines and thus bought a SQ. So, a good review on a SQis in no way conected to the number of customers that are convinced by HE machines. All people who like their HE machines tell that on the reviews of that HE machine and people who like their SQ tell that on a SQ review. I bet there are some people out there who had a SQ TL but found it to be to waistfull and to expensive to run and thus switched over to a HE machine that convinced them.
2nd: There is no water shortage on this planet. Aha. So, why do millions of Africans have no clean water to drink? Why does even the water resovoir our town rests on go low nearly each summer now? And keep in mind: Our summers are not that extrem. And there is proof. There have been several proofs and tests on that topic. And, if water is nor rare, why does your water bill go up and up as ours does?
3rd: Well, you don't have to buy such expensive DW detergent. You can go cheap. And at least for me, it worked. And, if you don't save, why did you buy your DW? I mean, you love your SQ, but it does save nothing. An is in o way green at all. Just to get it right: Yor DW is green but your laundry isn't?
4th: You are not benefiting by 4$ gas. It is just fact that oil is getting low on our earth. And nobody said that. Everybody hates that. And it is in NO POSSIBLE WAY conected to a dumbed down temp on a washer.
And now to washer111: I think, you started at a wrong point. A washer that wants to wash in true hot water and hit the HE requirements has to be FL today. But the dumbed down temps are not necessary. They dumb them down to look good for the customer. Dumbed down temps are not 100% made by the goverment. They gave requirements, but most just want to get beneath that level to be better that the others.
What the hell are you throwing together?
1st: How many SQ TLs have been sold? How many HE machines? And why do all people write reviews about their SQ Tls in which they mentioned a bad HE machine? Yea, maybe, because they bought a SQ TL because they did not like the HE machines and thus bought a SQ. So, a good review on a SQis in no way conected to the number of customers that are convinced by HE machines. All people who like their HE machines tell that on the reviews of that HE machine and people who like their SQ tell that on a SQ review. I bet there are some people out there who had a SQ TL but found it to be to waistfull and to expensive to run and thus switched over to a HE machine that convinced them.
2nd: There is no water shortage on this planet. Aha. So, why do millions of Africans have no clean water to drink? Why does even the water resovoir our town rests on go low nearly each summer now? And keep in mind: Our summers are not that extrem. And there is proof. There have been several proofs and tests on that topic. And, if water is nor rare, why does your water bill go up and up as ours does?
3rd: Well, you don't have to buy such expensive DW detergent. You can go cheap. And at least for me, it worked. And, if you don't save, why did you buy your DW? I mean, you love your SQ, but it does save nothing. An is in o way green at all. Just to get it right: Yor DW is green but your laundry isn't?
4th: You are not benefiting by 4$ gas. It is just fact that oil is getting low on our earth. And nobody said that. Everybody hates that. And it is in NO POSSIBLE WAY conected to a dumbed down temp on a washer.
And now to washer111: I think, you started at a wrong point. A washer that wants to wash in true hot water and hit the HE requirements has to be FL today. But the dumbed down temps are not necessary. They dumb them down to look good for the customer. Dumbed down temps are not 100% made by the goverment. They gave requirements, but most just want to get beneath that level to be better that the others.
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
I think it would best if we
Let's just slow down with insults and denigrations, can't discuss much about combo's customers or people who likes HE machines can't really deny that there are, like nobody can't deny there are folks hating them, I don't know these HE customers combos talks about as I don't know ones putting good ratings in various websites, as I don't know ones doing the opposite even though I share their experience, so don't know their laundry habits or expectations or canons ....they could actually be happy with what they got, after all, you have tons people claiming washing in cold but running industrial chlorine quantities for their whites...or also people washing with 1 spoon of soap, there are really thousands cases we could not mention, take in exam or discuss here....anyway can't speak for them except but my own, you can say they're likely dumb and can't recognize a clean wash, they could say you're likely dumb because you can't use HE properly to get clean wash. All on the base of individual/personal and different cases. So? There is no actual and factual point to go further and speak, and going over and over in speeches unless you take in exams really countless aspects ....we'll not get anything from it.
I think and know I am not dumb as much as they think and knows I am in their heads. Do we really wanna go ahead... I think it's lost time on both the sides of discussion.
Can't really see where this will lead.
But we can keep pacifically speak experiences and thoughts and report all the ones of who experienced and think about it like us...and defend our ideas to be accepted as we should accept others as long as we do not get too much off topic.
You can also call in cause any national consumer bullettin reports you wish thinking you are showing undeniable thruts....but I could easily reply goverments has his "fingers"everywhere....and it has been widely known since kinda always that when they want people to believe something they surely have any tools to accomplish that in any ways they can, and will do that.
As everyone and every situation is different, we have no right to determine and do pseudo-authoritarian speeches as indivuduals or as an online community on what's universally smarter or dumber, right or wrong when it comes in machines preference...otherwise we do the same thing of the govt.
I think that to make things ok:
We just have to think what REALLY makes everyone happy, bothways no matter what......as long as there is tolerance and freedom for everyone there's nothing to argue or fight about, and anyways surely not blame, attack or even emphathize like undeniable universal thruths both ones having good or bad experiences and findings about HE, as long as they both don't think you should be the same of them and force you to believe all what they believe into (so for those believing in green theories and all that matter)....it's allright in co-existence.
Finaly all this will likely and almost inevitably boil down to fully political:
You can say it's right or wrong what gov is doing, you are entitled to your views.
We can turn this discussion in another controversial endless economic- ecological-political one and have it turned on dirty forum as well, like the dryers one... really endless and really " hell-hot"topic.
BUT
I also think
Automaticwasher.org is surely not the place where worlds or today's America's problems will be solved.....so rants for rants, little use they'll have.
So sometimes It's just better to " get a grip" or avoid going on heavy discussions.
But I admit myself this isn't often easy..... Heck it is not!
[this post was last edited: 6/25/2014-17:23]
Let's just slow down with insults and denigrations, can't discuss much about combo's customers or people who likes HE machines can't really deny that there are, like nobody can't deny there are folks hating them, I don't know these HE customers combos talks about as I don't know ones putting good ratings in various websites, as I don't know ones doing the opposite even though I share their experience, so don't know their laundry habits or expectations or canons ....they could actually be happy with what they got, after all, you have tons people claiming washing in cold but running industrial chlorine quantities for their whites...or also people washing with 1 spoon of soap, there are really thousands cases we could not mention, take in exam or discuss here....anyway can't speak for them except but my own, you can say they're likely dumb and can't recognize a clean wash, they could say you're likely dumb because you can't use HE properly to get clean wash. All on the base of individual/personal and different cases. So? There is no actual and factual point to go further and speak, and going over and over in speeches unless you take in exams really countless aspects ....we'll not get anything from it.
I think and know I am not dumb as much as they think and knows I am in their heads. Do we really wanna go ahead... I think it's lost time on both the sides of discussion.
Can't really see where this will lead.
But we can keep pacifically speak experiences and thoughts and report all the ones of who experienced and think about it like us...and defend our ideas to be accepted as we should accept others as long as we do not get too much off topic.
You can also call in cause any national consumer bullettin reports you wish thinking you are showing undeniable thruts....but I could easily reply goverments has his "fingers"everywhere....and it has been widely known since kinda always that when they want people to believe something they surely have any tools to accomplish that in any ways they can, and will do that.
As everyone and every situation is different, we have no right to determine and do pseudo-authoritarian speeches as indivuduals or as an online community on what's universally smarter or dumber, right or wrong when it comes in machines preference...otherwise we do the same thing of the govt.
I think that to make things ok:
We just have to think what REALLY makes everyone happy, bothways no matter what......as long as there is tolerance and freedom for everyone there's nothing to argue or fight about, and anyways surely not blame, attack or even emphathize like undeniable universal thruths both ones having good or bad experiences and findings about HE, as long as they both don't think you should be the same of them and force you to believe all what they believe into (so for those believing in green theories and all that matter)....it's allright in co-existence.
Finaly all this will likely and almost inevitably boil down to fully political:
You can say it's right or wrong what gov is doing, you are entitled to your views.
We can turn this discussion in another controversial endless economic- ecological-political one and have it turned on dirty forum as well, like the dryers one... really endless and really " hell-hot"topic.
BUT
I also think
Automaticwasher.org is surely not the place where worlds or today's America's problems will be solved.....so rants for rants, little use they'll have.
So sometimes It's just better to " get a grip" or avoid going on heavy discussions.
But I admit myself this isn't often easy..... Heck it is not!
[this post was last edited: 6/25/2014-17:23]
You raise a good point, henene, at least in regards to my post.
Unfortunately, what looks good on paper often isn't in practice. Look at all the dead washer, car and dishwasher designs that never made it!
The other issue is WHY is the government meddling with home appliances where the white elephant in the room is industry, but ALSO nonrenewable power generation?
They need not raise fuel prices, ban hot water, less "efficient" washers/dryers and so on, if they regulated the polluters and pushed harder for change.
It is CLEAR what is happening is just a "feel good" means of claiming we have made progress when we haven't.
At the risk of starting a war - I honestly don't consider Ben's thread political. If we want political, I'm sure he can give us a big scoop
Unfortunately, what looks good on paper often isn't in practice. Look at all the dead washer, car and dishwasher designs that never made it!
The other issue is WHY is the government meddling with home appliances where the white elephant in the room is industry, but ALSO nonrenewable power generation?
They need not raise fuel prices, ban hot water, less "efficient" washers/dryers and so on, if they regulated the polluters and pushed harder for change.
It is CLEAR what is happening is just a "feel good" means of claiming we have made progress when we haven't.
At the risk of starting a war - I honestly don't consider Ben's thread political. If we want political, I'm sure he can give us a big scoop
I most assuredly could washer111
but I won't.
Just too tired right now. 2 nights of intense storms left me with about 4 hours sleep total. Really dragging right now. Can't even stay focused on the Karate Kid. As Mr. Han would say, my focus needs more focus.
but I won't.
Just too tired right now. 2 nights of intense storms left me with about 4 hours sleep total. Really dragging right now. Can't even stay focused on the Karate Kid. As Mr. Han would say, my focus needs more focus.
"CR, a rather poor substitute for toilet paper by the way, will NEVER test a SQ TL. Never. Even if you or I show up on their doorstep with one, it will never happen."
Consumer Reports has tested the Speed Queen AWN542 top-loader. They also tested the top-of-the-line SQ front-loader, but the top-loader is the one in question, here.
Speed Queen AWN542: Overall score of 29
Washing Performance: Good
Energy Efficiency: Good
Water Efficiency: Poor
Capacity: Good
Gentleness: Good
Noise: Good
For the sake of comparison, their top-ranked top-loader is the LG WT5680HVA: Overall score of 73
Washing Performance: Excellent
Energy Efficiency: Very Good
Water Efficiency: Very Good
Capacity: Excellent
Gentleness: Good
Noise: Very Good
EDIT: I do not know why everything is quadruple-spaced in this post. I activated the Editing Bar and this is how it turned out. Deactivated it for this addendum. Just wanted to make sure everyone understood I wasn't vying for "Largest Post Of The Week" or anything, LOL.
"It's impossible to discuss this subject without it, at least here in the U.S."
But not in "Deluxe" but in "Dirty Laundry" according to the rules.
But not in "Deluxe" but in "Dirty Laundry" according to the rules.
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