Who would be interested in getting new Maytag pitman agitator shafts?

[lorainfurniture]

I want to have some made. It’s a shame that one little part could keep a rebuilt Maytag from going another 40 years. I have some questions for you all:

1. Any benefit/ drawback from having it made in stainless steel?

2 can I get a show of hands so I can gauge interest. It’s going to be really expensive to have one made, but once it’s mapped out a cnc machine could crank out many. Hopefully this can dilute the cost.

I have some experience doing this. A few years ago I had a vintage stove knob remade. It cost $4,000 to have the mold made, but then the knobs cost $5 each to make.

Full disclosure: I am a business and I intend to sell these at a profit. However, anyone who gets in at the initial batch will be able to get them at the absolute cost.

Ie. Let’s say it costs $5000 to produce 100 shafts. The initial group will have the first Choice to buy at $50 each. (Plus a bit of shipping) I don’t really see the point of making more than 100 as I believe that could be a 50+ year supply.

Let me know your thoughts

Eugene

 

[swestoyz]

Maytag 2-730 agitator shaft

I'd be up for a few and could lend an NOS to help make up the tooling. The machining of the shaft itself should be straight forward with a few tool changes in a CNC end mill, except for the collar. Depending on the machine shop making these, it may be easier to do what Maytag did and press the collar on the finished shaft, rather than trying to machine the assembly as a whole.

I see no issue with the shaft being stainless on an integral spline agitator, however it might not play well with the diecast splined agitators (pre 1968). Bronze bearings are holding the shaft on both ends so the trans case shouldn't be an issue.

The videos I've watched of guys cutting what would be the the reliefs for the spline are fascinating.

Of quick note - the AMP transmissions use a different shaft, PN 2-9, so this effort would be purely for the helical drive/pitman arm transmissions.

Ben[this post was last edited: 2/9/2021-10:23]

 

[robbinsandmyers]

304 stainless ....

Is about the best for corrosion resistance but I'm not sure how hardened it is. I know lots of the stainless hardware we used on Thermo-King units was pretty soft and would break easy. I'm sure that shaft wouldnt break but wonder if it would bend slightly over time from torque if not hardened enough. Are those shafts a stock bar size diameter that require little to no machining, just cutting the splines?

 

[lorainfurniture]

Not sure

It’s splined at the top and a hole through the shaft on the other end. There is also a bushing that would need to be pressed in. I think it would be easy enough to replicate

 

[qsd-dan]

I contemplated doing this for sometime now. It's ridiculous that these washers are being junked over a relatively small shaft. However, replacement of the shaft is just one step of the process. Those 2 sleeve bearings absolutely need to be replaced (the upper being the most crucial). When the shaft is tore up, the sleeve bearings will indicate even more wear as they're a softer metal. Slapping a new shaft into worn bearings is not the answer to long life and quiet operation....something I learned the hard way early on.

There are other obsolete parts that need to be taken into consideration which will need to be sourced/designed in order to round out a proper rebuild. The groove pin that holds shaft in place is one of them. This is a one time use part and long obsoleted now. The nylon pinion gear becomes a weak area after 30/40/50+ years and needs replacement. The 2 clutch washers are another. The steel washer usually holds up fine unless the washer has seen a lot of the mileage (check for wear), but the brass washer absolutely needs to be replaced each and every time.

We haven't even got into the logistics of servicing. Removing and installing the groove pin is the trickiest part of the rebuild. The post 1974 upper transmission housing with the newer full length upper pinion upper gear is relatively easy when it comes to knocking the groove pin out. However, the pre '75 models can get really hairy. The pre 1966 models are an absolute bloody nightmare (I'm holding back every 4 letter word here!!). The further back one goes, the tighter the groove pin fits. The manual calls for hammering out the grove pin with a punch but this is a good way to crack the agitator shaft (it will crack at the collar). Pounding on the groove pin (removal or installation) can also destroy the soft metal sleeve bearings (they will become oblong). The most successful way I found to remove and install without destroying the shaft or bearings is pressing the groove pin out both in the removal and installation process. I came up with some wild and crazy ways of executing this, most I won't mention because they would be considered extremely dangerous by todays standards (we live in that kind of world now).

I toyed around with sourcing parts and providing an upper transmission housing rebuild service. Sourcing a new shaft, groove pin, sleeve bearings (already did that but was 9 years ago), fabing up a jig to the hold the upper transmission housing in place and using a large press to remove and the install the groove pin. As long as the housing was fine (no cracks), threads for the stem seal good, and the metal pinion gear was not worn, the upper housing can be successfully rebuilt. As mention above though, other parts need to be sourced for the lower housing (nylon pinion, brass/steel clutch washers, o-ring seal).

This would end up being a rather costly endeavor all around and I feel there isn't quite enough interest in these machines for one to go through that kind of hassle.

 

[lowefficiency]

Dan hit the nail on the head. Couldn't agree more.

When we rebuilt the transmission in my mother's A308, finding parts was huuuge challenge. It took months of searching, and despite living only a few hours away from where these machines were originally manufactured, we still had to import parts from half way around the globe to finish it.

I hate to say it, but with the logistics of sourcing parts, buying and fabricating tools, and then the labor on top, it's not really any big surprise that so many people here recommend finding a donor machine and just running that transmission until it dies, instead of rebuilding what they have.

HOWEVER, all is not lost.

Where I think there is still a solid business opportunity, is in selling rebuilt transmissions ready-to-go. Maybe even that's a partnership between Dan and Eugene. Maytag knew decades ago that it wasn't economical for field repair folks to be rebuilding transmissions - it's even worse today. But if *you* rebuild them, then it's a slam dunk for customers. It's a one-day search and buy, to fix their beloved washer, rather than the countless hours of time/energy/muscle/luck to rebuild a transmission themselves.

You could sell partial rebuilds, where you split the case, check the seals, and reassemble with fresh oil if the donor was in acceptable condition. And you could sell full rebuilds, with the new bushings pressed in. You guys in the appliance business are tripping over donor machines. But for anyone else, finding one, assessing its condition, hauling it home, taking it apart, and hauling the rest away is a lot of time and effort for an unknown result. If we just need, say, a replacement for a cracked gear - we can't just grab one from the shelf. But perhaps you could.

Just a thought!

 

[lowefficiency]

>> Depending on the machine shop making these, it may be easier to do what Maytag did and
>> press the collar on the finished shaft, rather than trying to machine the assembly as a whole.

That's something that's really fascinating about machine shops.

I saw a part once, where a comparatively giant block of metal was being machined down, pass after pass, into something just a fraction of the original. Why not cut off that corner with a bandsaw instead? Why not rough-cut that opening with a torch or hole saw? The answer is that "wasting" time and material on the CNC machine was far cheaper overall than turning a single-process operation into two or three steps on different machines.

So it would be interesting to hear what a machine shop says about this. Machining down a larger bar could in fact be less effort / lower cost than machining and pressing all of the collars on separately.

 

[lowefficiency]

Another thought, is that if you're manufacturing new shafts, you could do something completely different than Maytag, rather than a strict dimensionally-accurate replica.

For example, maybe you could skip the groov-pin and sintered gear drama all together, by machining a shaft with the gear integral on the bottom? The top collar would then be pressed on after inserting the shaft up through the top case half.
It would be a "lifetime" repair, but let's be honest - so is any other rebuild on an already 45+ year old transmission.

It might also be worth looking into whether, with a machining change to the groove, an industrial O-ring could be substituted for the rubber agitator stop ring? The supply of those stop rings comes and goes. Some reproductions are intermittently available, but for quite a while it was only one guy with a box of dusty shelf stock remaining.

 

[robbinsandmyers]

How about spray welding and machining worn/pitted old shafts? If the splines arent all pitted would that be a cheaper alternative?

 

[combo52]

Rebuilding Maytag Transmission Tops

Great discussion and interesting ideas, the way to sell these would be to have a complete top assembly at least, I would just use an easy to machine steel shaft like MT did and coat the top with an epoxy finish and it will last a long time.

 

A good shop could dissemble and rebuild the bearings and reassemble the top and they could also do a complete transmission if they wanted.

 

With a reasonable rebuild you could get maybe another 20 years or so out of these machines, none of us only have one washer after all and few of us have many kids, But you are certainly not going to get 40 more years out of these washers without a lot of work, the transmission may also prove to be the least of your problems as it gets harder to get timers, motors, etc etc.

 

I was looking around the shop this morning and we have at least 6 of these pitman transmissions that are in excellent condition so I will certainly ever need any for the Mts we have have.

 

I sometimes save the transmissions from the late 80s MT stack machines when the electronic controls get too wonky or the damper pads come loose and we are scrapping the machine, these transmissions are usually pretty low milage as they usually only have one or two people in a household so the mechanical parts of the machines are often like new.

 

John 

 

[lowefficiency]

If anyone needs a visual for this thread, here's what 45 years of use looks like on an agitator shaft.

 

[kb0nes]

Doesn't look like a ridiculous part to remanufacture. Making them in stainless might make sense in a limited run situation.

I'm assuming the collar in the center is a thrust bearing. This detail will greatly increase the cost of the shaft as it would have to be cut from a larger round bar reducing the diameters to finish. Adding the collar separately and possibly welding it in place before machining might reduce costs. If the shaft diameter is a nominal, precision ground stock could be used in this manner eliminating a grinding operation.

I manage a short run machine shop here in Minnesota and these might be reasonable in cost at fairly manageable quantities.

 

[combo52]

Rebuilding Maytag Transmission Tops

Hi Phil, The collar is a thrust bearing, the gear on the bottom of the shaft is the lower thrust bearing, it looks like MT pressed the upper thrust collar in place, it would be easy to tack weld an upper thrust collar in place.

 

I would imagine that getting new roll pins to hold the gear in place would be no problem.

 

[bradfordwhite]

seriously guys?

seriously? I mean come on.

We only live so long. You have nothing better to do with this money and effort? You're living for a washing machine?

Wouldn't it be more fun to just be on the hunt for more of this favored washer model and hope it has exchangeable parts?

The numbers are not in your favor.
If there was a market for such a part someone smarter and better heeled would have already undertaken that.

 

[qsd-dan]

Most of us are familiar with the Amish and their love of Maytag wringer washers. They have gone as far as making a living reproducing just about every available part from scratch, and that includes a shaft and bearing kit for the EJN wringers. Both shaft designs of the wringer and the '56-'89 autos are very similar to each other with some minor differences (BTW, roll pins are hollow in the center and lack sufficient rigidity compared to the groove pin design).

As I have mentioned in the past, the lower sleeve bearing in the '56-'89 automatic is identical to the EJN wringers. The upper bearing is similar in design (same inner diameter dimensions) except the overall length is longer for the automatics. The lower shaft collar and upper bearing collar on the automatics are beveled to account for an o-ring (probably not a bad idea to adopt for the wringers).

If a knowledgeable person could come in direct contact with the Amish and present a business plan of manufacturing a shaft/bearing kit for the automatics like they already provide for the wringers, this could end up being a win/win situation for all parties. The Amish already have the knowledge of machining these shafts and installing the collar, they just need to accommodate for subtle changes. Only minor adaptions for the upper bearing would need to be ironed out since the lower bearing is the same as the wringers.

The Amish are known for their quality of work and should be able to make adaptions for a much smaller fee than a machine shop starting from scratch. I would also trust the Amish to provide consistent high quality materials and workmanship over a machine shop that may fork the whole process to a 3rd world country and cheapen it overtime, if not immediately, to increase profits. I'd also prefer my money to stay within the US to support and reward workers in this country, but that's just my personal preference.

 

[lorainfurniture]

@bradfordwhite

It sounds like you are implying we are a bunch of idiots. Secondly, basically ALL of these particular shafts are pitted. Some are usable, some not

Regarding the numbers: I’m fully aware that there maybe only 20 people who buy one shaft. At $75 each I know I can recover at least $1500. If I spend $1,000 to make 50 units I’m in good shape.

The “smart” “well heeled “ people would never waste their time on such a small market. I’m just a small potato so im ok with making $500 for minimal effort, and save some of these very cool machines.

 

[tennblondie78]

I would be very interested in this. I need an new top assembly for my original transmission. Please add me to the list!

 

[rp2813]

Eugene, this is why Robert gave us the "hide member" option.  As a result, my BP hasn't spiked from any of the responses in this very interesting discussion that are visible to me.  Highly recommended.

 

[robbinsandmyers]

I would think stainless is the only way to go. Would avoid the cost of having to epoxy it at all to prevent rust. That collar would prob be best machined with the shaft. Once a CNC had the dimensions it could turn these out pretty reasonably.