passatdoc
Well-known member
Josephine The Plumber
Josephine The Plumber
Josephine The Plumber
Why do Euro washers have heaters?
- Thread starter arbilab
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pierreandreply4
Well-known member
wrong about color protection
i am sorry but for me the best way to protect color is to wash them in cold water as all cleaning label state that colors are best protected when wash in cold water so i would say that what is mention in this post "select warm possibly throw in a colour catcher is totaly false as washing colors in warm water cause the colors to fade with time" and also washing in cold water is the best way to protect any kind of fabrics so i would not see the point in having a heater in a washer or to have a sanitize cycle. Thats just my point of view and i am sorry in advance if i offended anyone
i am sorry but for me the best way to protect color is to wash them in cold water as all cleaning label state that colors are best protected when wash in cold water so i would say that what is mention in this post "select warm possibly throw in a colour catcher is totaly false as washing colors in warm water cause the colors to fade with time" and also washing in cold water is the best way to protect any kind of fabrics so i would not see the point in having a heater in a washer or to have a sanitize cycle. Thats just my point of view and i am sorry in advance if i offended anyone
hoovermatic
Well-known member
There's an early 80s Ariel Automatic advert featuring a very plummy sounding English early 80s housewife and an equally plummy-sounding sounding Irish Voice Over.
That's Jimmy Young, stalwart of Radio 2 for about 347 years!
That's Jimmy Young, stalwart of Radio 2 for about 347 years!
One needs these components to wash clothing /fabrics well:
Time
Temperature
Water
Chemicals
Mechanical action.
Lack of sufficient water and mechanical actions as well as tree-hugging chemicals means that one needs lots more time and heat to get good results.
(Efficiency means getting the job done with fewer resources; not using fewer resources and NOT getting the job done).
With a top-loader one arguably didn't NEED to heat the water to such an extent. We got used to not having heaters.
As previously stated- using 240v one can push through double the wattage of what one can using 120v, using the same gauge (thickness) of wire. An ordinary 120v outlet on a 20a line is limited to 2,400 watts, and one normally only uses 80% of that, being 1,920 watts. Cant really use a major heater (high wattage) with a motor load as well.
Still one cant argue that boil-washing my whites leaves iced-tea and coffee colored water... (yes without any skid marks present at commencement). LOL
[this post was last edited: 6/7/2011-14:06]
Time
Temperature
Water
Chemicals
Mechanical action.
Lack of sufficient water and mechanical actions as well as tree-hugging chemicals means that one needs lots more time and heat to get good results.
(Efficiency means getting the job done with fewer resources; not using fewer resources and NOT getting the job done).
With a top-loader one arguably didn't NEED to heat the water to such an extent. We got used to not having heaters.
As previously stated- using 240v one can push through double the wattage of what one can using 120v, using the same gauge (thickness) of wire. An ordinary 120v outlet on a 20a line is limited to 2,400 watts, and one normally only uses 80% of that, being 1,920 watts. Cant really use a major heater (high wattage) with a motor load as well.
Still one cant argue that boil-washing my whites leaves iced-tea and coffee colored water... (yes without any skid marks present at commencement). LOL
[this post was last edited: 6/7/2011-14:06]
arbilab
Well-known member
Most machines also have an option of a pre-wash too...
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Zackly what my Frigi does. Clockwork timer so if you want PW and MW at different temps you need to stand there and flip the temp knob. Seldom use it. My stuff goes in dirty (skin oil) but not filthy (car grease), comes out fine in half hour, single 95F wash.
Spot hard to festoon how one reconciles astronomical mains rates and 2-hour heated washes. But laundry can tend toward obsessive. Look how many lively folk we have right here talking about it every day.
)
======================================================
Zackly what my Frigi does. Clockwork timer so if you want PW and MW at different temps you need to stand there and flip the temp knob. Seldom use it. My stuff goes in dirty (skin oil) but not filthy (car grease), comes out fine in half hour, single 95F wash.
Spot hard to festoon how one reconciles astronomical mains rates and 2-hour heated washes. But laundry can tend toward obsessive. Look how many lively folk we have right here talking about it every day.
)nclh77 has a point, at least with older machines. Miele literature from the 80s showed only export models with hot and cold fill.
I didn't realize that bacteria would form the heat resistant spores in rapidly heating water. I thought it was more a defensive process that would happen if the cells were faced with drying. They would "encyst" in a spore case that was almost invulnerable to dry heat, but moisture would cause it to open and make the spore vulnerable to germicical agents. My Mieles limit the hot wash fill to 130F and add a bit of cold to my hot water, if necessary, to achieve that then heat to any higher temperature I have selected during the wash. The W1986 washes for 25 minutes at 140F in the Cottons cycle and the time remaining when the cycle is started is 1:04 = 64 minutes. That is the same time shown if it is set for a 190F wash, but there is a 17 minute hold where the time remaining does not change as the wash time is increased to give the hotter water a chance to do its thing. The W1918 shows a time of 1:47 when started at 180 or 190F and the wash period is 45 minutes, close to the 42 minutes in the 1986 at the higher temperature.
I didn't realize that bacteria would form the heat resistant spores in rapidly heating water. I thought it was more a defensive process that would happen if the cells were faced with drying. They would "encyst" in a spore case that was almost invulnerable to dry heat, but moisture would cause it to open and make the spore vulnerable to germicical agents. My Mieles limit the hot wash fill to 130F and add a bit of cold to my hot water, if necessary, to achieve that then heat to any higher temperature I have selected during the wash. The W1986 washes for 25 minutes at 140F in the Cottons cycle and the time remaining when the cycle is started is 1:04 = 64 minutes. That is the same time shown if it is set for a 190F wash, but there is a 17 minute hold where the time remaining does not change as the wash time is increased to give the hotter water a chance to do its thing. The W1918 shows a time of 1:47 when started at 180 or 190F and the wash period is 45 minutes, close to the 42 minutes in the 1986 at the higher temperature.
Most laundry hook-ups here have hot and cold water. Also, most laundry hook-ups on the continent would have easy access to hot water, as there's usually a sink near by.
Since the mid 1990s however, hot fill machines became rarer and rarer.
The main reason for the heater is pretty simple though - available power (circa 3000W) + fill time. So, it just makes more sense to heat a small volume of water in the machine, than relying on the household plumbing to deliver the correct temperature in time.
I remember with the hot fill machines we had, they would generally only use hot water if they were set for more than 60ºC and then heat if necessary to bring the temperature up higher than the fill water.
The other problem here was that domestic hot water systems, particularly older ones (installed before modern regulations about max temperatures) would often deliver water at closer to 80ºC or even hotter! So, there was always a risk of wrecking your clothes if the machine was expecting 60C and got closer to 90C fill water.
As I say, very few people actually use boil washing on a regular basis.
The vast majority of washing is done in warm (body temperature) 40ºC or even 30ºC (below body temperature) water which is ideal for enzyme activity so removes the vast majority of food stains / dirt very effectively.
I like to boil wash my white towels once in a while with a good dose of oxygen-bleach added to Persil or Ariel and it really does have a very big impact.
The typical day-to-day wash in my house is about 47 minutes, including rinses and spins and is done at 40ºC. It's more than enough to clean pretty much anything.
Since the mid 1990s however, hot fill machines became rarer and rarer.
The main reason for the heater is pretty simple though - available power (circa 3000W) + fill time. So, it just makes more sense to heat a small volume of water in the machine, than relying on the household plumbing to deliver the correct temperature in time.
I remember with the hot fill machines we had, they would generally only use hot water if they were set for more than 60ºC and then heat if necessary to bring the temperature up higher than the fill water.
The other problem here was that domestic hot water systems, particularly older ones (installed before modern regulations about max temperatures) would often deliver water at closer to 80ºC or even hotter! So, there was always a risk of wrecking your clothes if the machine was expecting 60C and got closer to 90C fill water.
As I say, very few people actually use boil washing on a regular basis.
The vast majority of washing is done in warm (body temperature) 40ºC or even 30ºC (below body temperature) water which is ideal for enzyme activity so removes the vast majority of food stains / dirt very effectively.
I like to boil wash my white towels once in a while with a good dose of oxygen-bleach added to Persil or Ariel and it really does have a very big impact.
The typical day-to-day wash in my house is about 47 minutes, including rinses and spins and is done at 40ºC. It's more than enough to clean pretty much anything.
passatdoc
Well-known member
Central hot water was not as prevalent in Europe in the old
I lived in Holland as an exchange student in 1973----38 years ago. The family who hosted me were somewhat above middle class. They lived in a semi-detached home with front yard and garden in back. The attic had been converted into two bedrooms for the youngest two of their five children, and each child had his or her own bedroom. Even I had my own room: a small office or storage room on the first (ground) floor had been converted to a guest room. For 1973, this wasn't a wealthy family but they lived better than perhaps typical middle class Holland of that era.
The house was built early or mid 1960s. There was no central hot water. Instead, there was a point of use, gas-fired water heater at each point where hot water was needed: kitchen and bathrooms (two bathrooms). The point is that an above-middle class family living in a home under ten years old had only point of use heaters, and that is how things were then. The laundry area was in the attached garage, not the kitchen, and there was no water heater at that location, so the machine (a top loading horizontal axis washer) had to have an internal heater. Had the machine been dual-fill, a point of use heater would have been required, thus raising the effective cost of the machine above the actual purchase price.
Central hot water is more common now in Holland than in the 1970s. I have a friend in a newly built townhouse and she has a gas fired storage tank (not tankless) heater on the top of her three floors, and central hot water at each point of use. Her 1960s townhome, which she sold to buy the new one, had point of use heaters at each required location.
Even in the homes of European friends with modern central tankless hot water systems, the laundry room is plumbed only with cold water, necessitating a cold water fill with integrated heater.
In the US, basic FL machines lack an onboard heater and cannot wash above hot water line temperature. I have a Frig 2140 with no heater, but it sits adjacent to the 40 gallon/160 litre gas storage tank heater, so hot water is not an issue unless two people are taking showers elsewhere in the house at the same time. The 2140 lacks even auto temp control, thought its next up the ladder sister model 2940 does have this feature. I rarely wash on hot, anyway, as warm takes care of most of my needs. Middle of the road and upscale models do have heaters, which activate only when wash temp above hot water line temperature is elected. Heating is slow because of 120V current, and I've heard of "santise" cycles taking two hours or more, due to heating time plus extended wash time.
I lived in Holland as an exchange student in 1973----38 years ago. The family who hosted me were somewhat above middle class. They lived in a semi-detached home with front yard and garden in back. The attic had been converted into two bedrooms for the youngest two of their five children, and each child had his or her own bedroom. Even I had my own room: a small office or storage room on the first (ground) floor had been converted to a guest room. For 1973, this wasn't a wealthy family but they lived better than perhaps typical middle class Holland of that era.
The house was built early or mid 1960s. There was no central hot water. Instead, there was a point of use, gas-fired water heater at each point where hot water was needed: kitchen and bathrooms (two bathrooms). The point is that an above-middle class family living in a home under ten years old had only point of use heaters, and that is how things were then. The laundry area was in the attached garage, not the kitchen, and there was no water heater at that location, so the machine (a top loading horizontal axis washer) had to have an internal heater. Had the machine been dual-fill, a point of use heater would have been required, thus raising the effective cost of the machine above the actual purchase price.
Central hot water is more common now in Holland than in the 1970s. I have a friend in a newly built townhouse and she has a gas fired storage tank (not tankless) heater on the top of her three floors, and central hot water at each point of use. Her 1960s townhome, which she sold to buy the new one, had point of use heaters at each required location.
Even in the homes of European friends with modern central tankless hot water systems, the laundry room is plumbed only with cold water, necessitating a cold water fill with integrated heater.
In the US, basic FL machines lack an onboard heater and cannot wash above hot water line temperature. I have a Frig 2140 with no heater, but it sits adjacent to the 40 gallon/160 litre gas storage tank heater, so hot water is not an issue unless two people are taking showers elsewhere in the house at the same time. The 2140 lacks even auto temp control, thought its next up the ladder sister model 2940 does have this feature. I rarely wash on hot, anyway, as warm takes care of most of my needs. Middle of the road and upscale models do have heaters, which activate only when wash temp above hot water line temperature is elected. Heating is slow because of 120V current, and I've heard of "santise" cycles taking two hours or more, due to heating time plus extended wash time.
arbilab
Well-known member
Makes fine sense to have a heater in the washer in markets which are either electric heat anyway (costs no more) or have only one laundry tap. Single-tap laundry is unheard of in US in my lifetime. But not everyone gets natural gas service-- none of the apartments in this town have gas and electric is costly for heat.
Perhaps Ireland was a bit different then. The vast majority of houses have central hot water. It's been quite common since the early 1900s. The early systems were heated by a boiler in the fireplace in the kitchen or by a range (big aga style solid fuel cooker). There was a copper cylinder upstairs and the system worked by convection and gravity, there were no pumps.
Some systems also heated radiators.
As time went on, those systems evolved, an electric immersion heater element was added to the copper cylinder. Then in homes that had radiator based hydronic central heating, a copper coil great exchanger is in the hot water cylinder. The heating system pumps hot water through this circuit, as if it were a radiator. This indirectly heats the water.
systems like these are the norm in most Irish homes.
Typically, they are heated by natural gas, pressure jet kerosine / gasoil, LPG and sometimes also solid fuel too.
Wood pellet, solar and other renewables have also been added to the fuel mix in recent years.
Point of use heaters exist, but they aren't the norm here
Some systems also heated radiators.
As time went on, those systems evolved, an electric immersion heater element was added to the copper cylinder. Then in homes that had radiator based hydronic central heating, a copper coil great exchanger is in the hot water cylinder. The heating system pumps hot water through this circuit, as if it were a radiator. This indirectly heats the water.
systems like these are the norm in most Irish homes.
Typically, they are heated by natural gas, pressure jet kerosine / gasoil, LPG and sometimes also solid fuel too.
Wood pellet, solar and other renewables have also been added to the fuel mix in recent years.
Point of use heaters exist, but they aren't the norm here
A little more info:
Gas-fired point of use heaters were popular in urban areas that had gas in the 1920s/30s but they were rarely the only source of hot water in most houses.
Also, in recent decades, electrically heated (usually 9kW+) instantaneous showers are quite popular, but again, they're usually supplemental rather than the only source of hot water.
The attraction is that during summer months, when heating systems are switched off, the immersion heater (central hot water) only heats enough water for sinks etc normally and it is cheaper and more efficient to just use an instantaneous shower.
Electric showers in the UK and Ireland look something like this :
Some people also opt to use 'combi-boilers' which are central heating (radiator) boilers, usually gas-fired, which also can heat instantaneous water for showers / taps etc.
Again, this is considered a little more efficient than heating central water tanks and holding them hot.
The other factor is that newer tanks are very efficient and have excellent insulation, so it's really no advantage to use instantaneous heaters anymore.
Older models here were almost uninsulated!
Gas-fired point of use heaters were popular in urban areas that had gas in the 1920s/30s but they were rarely the only source of hot water in most houses.
Also, in recent decades, electrically heated (usually 9kW+) instantaneous showers are quite popular, but again, they're usually supplemental rather than the only source of hot water.
The attraction is that during summer months, when heating systems are switched off, the immersion heater (central hot water) only heats enough water for sinks etc normally and it is cheaper and more efficient to just use an instantaneous shower.
Electric showers in the UK and Ireland look something like this :
Some people also opt to use 'combi-boilers' which are central heating (radiator) boilers, usually gas-fired, which also can heat instantaneous water for showers / taps etc.
Again, this is considered a little more efficient than heating central water tanks and holding them hot.
The other factor is that newer tanks are very efficient and have excellent insulation, so it's really no advantage to use instantaneous heaters anymore.
Older models here were almost uninsulated!
I grew up in a house that was built in the early sixties. Above the boiler of the central heating system there was a huge water heater that could be heated by the boiler. The system could be turned off and the water was then rerouted through an on demand gas water heater. The big water heater was in the laundry room, but there was only a cold water connection for the washer.
passatdoc
Well-known member
Louis, quite possibly my host family's house might have had a similar system. All of my visits there (initially for three months; later visits while in university and thereafter) were May-September, when they weren't heating the house. I was never there during winter or late fall. If there was a central system, it must have been turned off during the warm months, since I distinctly recall having cold water initially come out of the hot water bathroom tap until the flame lit and then hot water miraculously appeared.
The other thing I remember was everyone having a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">MINIMUM </span>of two middle names, and some with <span style="text-decoration: underline;">THREE </span>middle names. Maris was often one of those names, even for boys.
(e.g. Klaus Maria Brandauer, though he's Austrian; the same concept existed in Catholic areas of Germany and Netherlands). Although we lived in a "mixed" area (neither Catholics nor Protestants predominated), there was a sort of de facto segregation, in that even nominally Catholic families sent their kids to Catholic schools, and Protestant families sent their kids to Protestant schools. The result was that I never met a Protestant during the entire summer. They weren't prejudiced, they were very liberal, it's just that in those days, there was only limited "mixing". See section IV below:
http://www.euresisnet.eu/Pages/ReligionAndState/NETHERLANDS.aspx
The other thing I remember was everyone having a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">MINIMUM </span>of two middle names, and some with <span style="text-decoration: underline;">THREE </span>middle names. Maris was often one of those names, even for boys.
(e.g. Klaus Maria Brandauer, though he's Austrian; the same concept existed in Catholic areas of Germany and Netherlands). Although we lived in a "mixed" area (neither Catholics nor Protestants predominated), there was a sort of de facto segregation, in that even nominally Catholic families sent their kids to Catholic schools, and Protestant families sent their kids to Protestant schools. The result was that I never met a Protestant during the entire summer. They weren't prejudiced, they were very liberal, it's just that in those days, there was only limited "mixing". See section IV below:http://www.euresisnet.eu/Pages/ReligionAndState/NETHERLANDS.aspx
As far as I remember from my youth, there were quite a few systems for water heating. Many people had a gas tankless water heater over the kitchen sink that was also used to heat the water for the shower. Some other households had a gas tank water heater. My grandmother on my father's side had an electric tank heater. IIRC that was about the second popular way of heating water after the gas tankless heaters. The system we had wasn't very common I think.
I also remember a huge gas tankless water heater in the laundryroom of our neighbours. It didn't serve only a large house but also the sinks in the dental practice of our neighbour. I remember the big "whoop" sound when somewhere in the house a hot water tap was opened. This water heater btw, was having above the Constructa boil washing machine, but no hot water from the water heater was used by that machine.
I also remember a huge gas tankless water heater in the laundryroom of our neighbours. It didn't serve only a large house but also the sinks in the dental practice of our neighbour. I remember the big "whoop" sound when somewhere in the house a hot water tap was opened. This water heater btw, was having above the Constructa boil washing machine, but no hot water from the water heater was used by that machine.
arbilab
Well-known member
Fascinating. Who knew there were so many ways to produce hot water?
Grandma's house was built circa 1920. The original boiler (for radiators) was coal, later converted to natgas. Not sure I got to see the original water heater. By 1950 it was a gas burner with an open coil over it. Water in the coil convected to an adjacent tank for storage and service. Never saw anything like it before or since.
Point-of-use water heat is resurging here, I think because the waste of running the spigot until the hot appears. Even though you may only 'use' a quart of hot water, you drain 2 gallons from the tank heating the pipes. However, I have never heard of a gas P-O-U heater here. And the waste of a central gas system is probably less than the cost of electric POU. For the same amount of heat at US rates I estimate electric twice as expensive as gas.
Grandma's house was built circa 1920. The original boiler (for radiators) was coal, later converted to natgas. Not sure I got to see the original water heater. By 1950 it was a gas burner with an open coil over it. Water in the coil convected to an adjacent tank for storage and service. Never saw anything like it before or since.
Point-of-use water heat is resurging here, I think because the waste of running the spigot until the hot appears. Even though you may only 'use' a quart of hot water, you drain 2 gallons from the tank heating the pipes. However, I have never heard of a gas P-O-U heater here. And the waste of a central gas system is probably less than the cost of electric POU. For the same amount of heat at US rates I estimate electric twice as expensive as gas.
passatdoc
Well-known member
One limiting factor in the USA re: POU gas heaters is that lack of gas pipes to most bathrooms. In general, gas lines run to the laundry area, the kitchen, the water heater and furnace, and that's it. It might work for new construction, but retrofitting existing homes could be expensive. Also, proper venting could be an issue. I do have friends with a large, rambling, single story home who installed a gas tankless heater on each end of the house, so they in effect have two large POU gas heaters.
I suddenly remembered something else. At home at a friend of mine they had a very big gas tank water heater. The house was rather big and some taps were rather far away from the water heater. They had a circulation pump installed. The hot water pipes were installed like a ring system and the pipes were insulated. If you opened a tap far away from the water heater you still had hot water instantly.
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