Why do Euro washers have heaters?

[amyswasher]

On the same lines

Had a health inspector tell me once " It's important to build immunity at home, but in a restaurant you don't know if the next person walking though the door just had a heart transplant, so sanitation is important to the public."

 

[MrX]

230Volts may also play a part.

Older machines in Europe, certainly older ones in Britain and Ireland always had hot and cold fill. However, these older machines also used a lot more water than modern ones.

The fill time factor is a huge issue as a typical machine won't run the water long enough to bleed pipes and get actual hot water as has been mentioned above.

However, the other factor is that US power outlets are traditionally 110V 15amp safely giving you about 1500W absolute max.

European outlets on the other hand, are 230V and machines can be designed to have loads up to 3000W. That makes a huge difference when you are heating water. A typical European washer will pull 2300-2500W when it's heating.

I think perhaps for US designers it was easier to just use a hot water valve than require special wiring like a US electric dryer or stove has.

Also, heating a very large volume of water like that used in a traditional US top loader would take a considerable amount of time even with a 2000W heater where as with a front loader, you're really only heating a fraction of that volume of water. So, from a time and simplicity point of view, it would make more sense to fill a top loader with hot water.

Most European washing is done at 40ºC not 60ºC or boiling temperatures, but the machines all have the option of doing that if you want to *really* clean bed linen or towels for example.

Using disinfectants / anti-bacterials in the wash is not comparable to actually heating the fabric to near boiling point when it comes to killing bacteria and viruses.

Remember, those chemical agents typically kill 99.999% of bugs, it's the fact that they might leave the 0.001% really nasty bugs that is a little worrying.

I won't use them in my kitchen either for that reason. I prefer old-fashioned cleaning and if you do need to sterlise something, mild chlorine bleach solution is the only really safe way. But, for normal day-to-day cleaning it should be unnecessary.

 

[launderess]

Chemcial disenfection when properly done is streets ahead of thermal methods. I'd take my chances with the remaining 0.001% of "germs",versus the much larger colonies that remain after using most methods of heat.

For one thing as with other living things various germs/moulds/bacteria, and so forth are killed by various levels of heat. E coli mostly is done in at temps of 160F for ten minutes, but there are yeasts which would require >180F for twice that long and even then may not totally kill everything.

There is also the slow heating of water in all but the most high powered commercial washers leaves "germs" plenty of time to develop defences.Yes many will die but others that remain to live another day emerge to find the field cleared.

What most persons using chemical disinfectants fail to do is read and follow the directions properly. There are two parts to the system; cleaning, then disenfecting. This applies for thermal methods as well.

Every bottle of registered disenfectant will direct one to clean the surface first, then with a fresh solution (at proper dilution), apply and allow the surface to remain wet for a period of time.Simply wiping things down isn't the same.

Chlorine bleach is such powerful chemical that it is the standard for disenfection. Because it is so inexpensive the stuff is widely used for that purpose.

 

[sudsman]

No Longer any accepted standard temperature for hospital wor

CDC no longer uses 160 for a standard washing temp. They have guidelines for temps as low as 120 depending upon the chemicals used. Most hospital Laundry Managers as myself still use 140 as a min, temp. that coupled with alkali and use of a good sour alone will kill most bacteria. Not to mention chlorine bleach. To save time and water I start most loads right out with 140 hot break wash for 12 min. then follow with a hot rinse and a Suds bleach for 12 mins. I have found that increasing the time from 8 mins to 12 mins allows us to save almost 30% on supplies. When we talk supplies at over 10,000 a month that adds up very quickly.For some of the hospitals that do use the 120 wash the linen does not last as long as the extra bleach needed to insure sanitation effects the life of the linen greatly. Unless a anti chlor is used and most hospital laundries cannot afford the extra cost of the supply. We are all plagued by the same thing
administrators that can only speak three words cut, cut, cut. Linen Replcement cost that run in excess of a million dollars a year. And supply cost that seem to rise almost every mo. This is some of the reasons a large number of hospitals are closing the laundry and outsourceing housekeeping maint. And any other depts that they can . Even Dietary services are now handle by outside contract services at some hospitals now.

 

[MrX]

A boil wash in a European washing machine will hold the clothes at 95ºC i.e. about 200ºF for over an hour.

NOTHING survives it, sometimes not even the clothes lol.

In general it's only used for linen and very sturdy cottons.

Basically the high temperature cottons wash on a typical European machine is a bit like this and takes over two hours!

1) Fill - cold tap water + detergent.
2) Heat and tumble for about 20 minutes to bring the temperature up. This is when the enzymes breakdown stains.
3) Continue heating towards boiling point - activates oxygen bleaching to the maximum level and increases performance of the surfactants while destroying anything biological.
4) Towards the end of the washing phase, most machines will top up with cold water to reduce the temperature to avoid pouring boiling water down the drain to avoid temperature shocks.
5) Spin to remove wash solution.
6) Rinse - cold water.
7) Spin
8) Rinse - cold water
9) Spin
10) Rinse - cold water + fabric softener
11) Final high speed long spin.

 

[MrX]

Oh I forgot!

Most machines also have an option of a pre-wash too.

So, before the wash starts, the washing machine fills with detergent + cold water and does a short, usually 40ºC (104ºF) cycle followed by a spin before it starts the cottons cycle described above.

Also, some machines may do more than just those 3 rinses. It depends on what the programmes is and also on what the machine's control system is like. Some can detect suds and will add extra rinses until the water's clear.

 

[ronhic]

Well it is...

...the longest cycle on my machine...

 

The 95c quick wash - wash, 2 rinses with intermittant spins is 1:46

 

...the full cycle is 2:25 with 3 rinses...

 

Should I add a pre-wash at 30c and super rinse, I get....30c, 20 minute pre-wash, long wash at 95c and 5 rinses....3:10....

 

Items best be very clean after that....

 

[mrboilwash]

Launderess you are so right about Germans having a thing about things being clean.
Sometimes I am really amazed about the greyish sheets and towels provided in some not so cheap hotels in the States. Same is often true for some fastfood chains in the States. One is spick and span and a few hundred yards down the street the next one of the same brand is often found in a condition that would never pass public health inspection over here.

As to sanitation of clothes I think to recall a European study which was posted here some time ago. The one comparing Greek, Spanish and other countrys` laundry habits.
I think there was a conclusion that even when using a powder with activated oxygen bleach there is not much difference in germ reduction in cold and warm water. Things were a little bit better at 60°C but still far away from perfect.

I agree that in most cases there is no need to sanitize clothes for health aspects. But I find it very handy to be able to "boil" clothes in the washer just because things stay fresh for much longer when sanitized. No need to change sheets every other day.

 

[MrX]

Well, in general the aim of cleaning is to reduce the number of bugs to a managable level.

Sterilising items that are going to be used in a normal environment is usually totally unnecessary.

I have some light cotton duvets that can be boil washed and I use them as mattress protectors. They are the only items that I regularly wash at 90ºC

In general, the boil wash option is nice to have, but it's rarely used.

I still prefer the idea of being able to heat-clean something than relying on chemical agents which will typically remain in the clothes, and be worse for the environment.

The vast majority of laundry in this country however is done on a 40ºC cotton cycle. That's generally what most people use for everything and it's more than sufficient and produces great results.

Greying whites is caused by dye transfer, not dirt. Nobody is THAT filthy!
So, to keep your whites white, just wash them separately.
it's amazing how many people just stuff everything into the washing machine, select 40ºC possibly throw in a "colour catcher" and hope for the best

 

[passatdoc]

"Launderess you are so right about Germans having a thing about things being clean."

In my first year German course at university, we learned the verbs "sauber machen" and "reinigen", literally "to make clean" and "to purify". One of the questions asked was, "what is the difference between "sauber machen" and "reinigen", when should you use each of these terms?"

The teacher's answer: if you have ever been in a German house during spring cleaning, you would know the difference. Basically, Americans "machen sauber", and Germans "reinigen" (purify). For years, stats have shown that Germany households consume the most soap and cleaning products of any country in the world (pre-unification, the disparity with the rest of the world was even more pronounced). I remember seeing a table of stats in the 1980s showing that Germany consumed per capita twice as much soap and detergent as neighboring Holland. No wonder Henkel and P&G (Ariel/Klementine) have done so well!!

"Germany: where cleaning is a hobby for some."

I have friends in Germany who still wash towels, linens, and undergarments at 90 C----just like Mutti.

ps I saw my first Ariel ad with Klementine as an exchange student in Holland in 1973. We lived close enough to the border (about 12 km) that we received one German tv channel (plus NL1 and NL2). No cable yet!! I immediately recognize Klementine as a rip-off of the "Josephine the Lady Plumber" ads, for Comet kitchen cleanser, in the USA since the early 1960s. Klementine's overalls and cap, with her name embroidered on them, matched Josephine's outfit exactly. At that time, I thought, "what a blatant rip off of the Josephine concept." Many years later, I discovered that both Ariel and Comet are Proctor & Gamble products, and that P&G was free to rip off their own concept. They figured---correctly---that very few if any German viewers had ever seen a Josephine The Plumber ad in the USA.

Here is a vintage Comet ad:





(the ads on YouTube are probably late 60s or 1970s because they are in color, but I remember seeing black-and-white ads with Josephine from the early 1960s. She appeared years before Klementine. The concept was the same: Josephine is in the home to perform a repair, and while she is there she also demonstrates the cleaning power of Comet.

 

[passatdoc]

Josephine The Plumber

Josephine The Plumber

 

[pierreandreply4]

wrong about color protection

i am sorry but for me the best way to protect color is to wash them in cold water as all cleaning label state that colors are best protected when wash in cold water so i would say that what is mention in this post "select warm possibly throw in a colour catcher is totaly false as washing colors in warm water cause the colors to fade with time" and also washing in cold water is the best way to protect any kind of fabrics so i would not see the point in having a heater in a washer or to have a sanitize cycle. Thats just my point of view and i am sorry in advance if i offended anyone

 

[MrX]

There's an early 80s Ariel Automatic advert featuring a very plummy sounding English early 80s housewife and an equally plummy-sounding sounding Irish Voice Over.

 

[MrX]

The strangest 1980s Ariel advert ever -



Aimed at UK/IRL market.

All about washing at low temperatures.

 

[hoovermatic]

There's an early 80s Ariel Automatic advert featuring a very plummy sounding English early 80s housewife and an equally plummy-sounding sounding Irish Voice Over.

That's Jimmy Young, stalwart of Radio 2 for about 347 years!

 

[toggleswitch]

One needs these components to wash clothing /fabrics well:

Time
Temperature
Water
Chemicals
Mechanical action.

Lack of sufficient water and mechanical actions as well as tree-hugging chemicals means that one needs lots more time and heat to get good results.

(Efficiency means getting the job done with fewer resources; not using fewer resources and NOT getting the job done).

With a top-loader one arguably didn't NEED to heat the water to such an extent. We got used to not having heaters.

As previously stated- using 240v one can push through double the wattage of what one can using 120v, using the same gauge (thickness) of wire. An ordinary 120v outlet on a 20a line is limited to 2,400 watts, and one normally only uses 80% of that, being 1,920 watts. Cant really use a major heater (high wattage) with a motor load as well.

Still one cant argue that boil-washing my whites leaves iced-tea and coffee colored water... (yes without any skid marks present at commencement). LOL

[this post was last edited: 6/7/2011-14:06]

 

[arbilab]

Most machines also have an option of a pre-wash too...
======================================================

Zackly what my Frigi does. Clockwork timer so if you want PW and MW at different temps you need to stand there and flip the temp knob. Seldom use it. My stuff goes in dirty (skin oil) but not filthy (car grease), comes out fine in half hour, single 95F wash.

Spot hard to festoon how one reconciles astronomical mains rates and 2-hour heated washes. But laundry can tend toward obsessive. Look how many lively folk we have right here talking about it every day. )

 

[nclh77]

Most European laundry hook-ups only have cold water. There is no hot water hook-up.

 

[tomturbomatic]

nclh77 has a point, at least with older machines. Miele literature from the 80s showed only export models with hot and cold fill.

I didn't realize that bacteria would form the heat resistant spores in rapidly heating water. I thought it was more a defensive process that would happen if the cells were faced with drying. They would "encyst" in a spore case that was almost invulnerable to dry heat, but moisture would cause it to open and make the spore vulnerable to germicical agents. My Mieles limit the hot wash fill to 130F and add a bit of cold to my hot water, if necessary, to achieve that then heat to any higher temperature I have selected during the wash. The W1986 washes for 25 minutes at 140F in the Cottons cycle and the time remaining when the cycle is started is 1:04 = 64 minutes. That is the same time shown if it is set for a 190F wash, but there is a 17 minute hold where the time remaining does not change as the wash time is increased to give the hotter water a chance to do its thing. The W1918 shows a time of 1:47 when started at 180 or 190F and the wash period is 45 minutes, close to the 42 minutes in the 1986 at the higher temperature.

 

[MrX]

Most laundry hook-ups here have hot and cold water. Also, most laundry hook-ups on the continent would have easy access to hot water, as there's usually a sink near by.

Since the mid 1990s however, hot fill machines became rarer and rarer.

The main reason for the heater is pretty simple though - available power (circa 3000W) + fill time. So, it just makes more sense to heat a small volume of water in the machine, than relying on the household plumbing to deliver the correct temperature in time.

I remember with the hot fill machines we had, they would generally only use hot water if they were set for more than 60ºC and then heat if necessary to bring the temperature up higher than the fill water.

The other problem here was that domestic hot water systems, particularly older ones (installed before modern regulations about max temperatures) would often deliver water at closer to 80ºC or even hotter! So, there was always a risk of wrecking your clothes if the machine was expecting 60C and got closer to 90C fill water.

As I say, very few people actually use boil washing on a regular basis.

The vast majority of washing is done in warm (body temperature) 40ºC or even 30ºC (below body temperature) water which is ideal for enzyme activity so removes the vast majority of food stains / dirt very effectively.

I like to boil wash my white towels once in a while with a good dose of oxygen-bleach added to Persil or Ariel and it really does have a very big impact.

The typical day-to-day wash in my house is about 47 minutes, including rinses and spins and is done at 40ºC. It's more than enough to clean pretty much anything.

 

[passatdoc]

Central hot water was not as prevalent in Europe in the old

I lived in Holland as an exchange student in 1973----38 years ago. The family who hosted me were somewhat above middle class. They lived in a semi-detached home with front yard and garden in back. The attic had been converted into two bedrooms for the youngest two of their five children, and each child had his or her own bedroom. Even I had my own room: a small office or storage room on the first (ground) floor had been converted to a guest room. For 1973, this wasn't a wealthy family but they lived better than perhaps typical middle class Holland of that era.

 

The house was built early or mid 1960s. There was no central hot water. Instead, there was a point of use, gas-fired water heater at each point where hot water was needed: kitchen and bathrooms (two bathrooms). The point is that an above-middle class family living in a home under ten years old had only point of use heaters, and that is how things were then. The laundry area was in the attached garage, not the kitchen, and there was no water heater at that location, so the machine (a top loading horizontal axis washer) had to have an internal heater. Had the machine been dual-fill, a point of use heater would have been required, thus raising the effective cost of the machine above the actual purchase price.

 

Central hot water is more common now in Holland than in the 1970s. I have a friend in a newly built townhouse and she has a gas fired storage tank (not tankless) heater on the top of her three floors, and central hot water at each point of use. Her 1960s townhome, which she sold to buy the new one, had point of use heaters at each required location.

 

Even in the homes of European friends with modern central tankless hot water systems, the laundry room is plumbed only with cold water, necessitating a cold water fill with integrated heater.

 

In the US, basic FL machines lack an onboard heater and cannot wash above hot water line temperature. I have a Frig 2140 with no heater, but it sits adjacent to the 40 gallon/160 litre gas storage tank heater, so hot water is not an issue unless two people are taking showers elsewhere in the house at the same time. The 2140 lacks even auto temp control, thought its next up the ladder sister model 2940 does have this feature. I rarely wash on hot, anyway, as warm takes care of most of my needs. Middle of the road and upscale models do have heaters, which activate only when wash temp above hot water line temperature is elected.  Heating is slow because of 120V current, and I've heard of "santise" cycles taking two hours or more,  due to heating time plus extended wash time.

 

[arbilab]

Makes fine sense to have a heater in the washer in markets which are either electric heat anyway (costs no more) or have only one laundry tap. Single-tap laundry is unheard of in US in my lifetime. But not everyone gets natural gas service-- none of the apartments in this town have gas and electric is costly for heat.

 

[MrX]

Perhaps Ireland was a bit different then. The vast majority of houses have central hot water. It's been quite common since the early 1900s. The early systems were heated by a boiler in the fireplace in the kitchen or by a range (big aga style solid fuel cooker). There was a copper cylinder upstairs and the system worked by convection and gravity, there were no pumps.

Some systems also heated radiators.

As time went on, those systems evolved, an electric immersion heater element was added to the copper cylinder. Then in homes that had radiator based hydronic central heating, a copper coil great exchanger is in the hot water cylinder. The heating system pumps hot water through this circuit, as if it were a radiator. This indirectly heats the water.

systems like these are the norm in most Irish homes.

Typically, they are heated by natural gas, pressure jet kerosine / gasoil, LPG and sometimes also solid fuel too.

Wood pellet, solar and other renewables have also been added to the fuel mix in recent years.

Point of use heaters exist, but they aren't the norm here

 

[MrX]

A little more info:

Gas-fired point of use heaters were popular in urban areas that had gas in the 1920s/30s but they were rarely the only source of hot water in most houses.

Also, in recent decades, electrically heated (usually 9kW+) instantaneous showers are quite popular, but again, they're usually supplemental rather than the only source of hot water.

The attraction is that during summer months, when heating systems are switched off, the immersion heater (central hot water) only heats enough water for sinks etc normally and it is cheaper and more efficient to just use an instantaneous shower.

Electric showers in the UK and Ireland look something like this :

Some people also opt to use 'combi-boilers' which are central heating (radiator) boilers, usually gas-fired, which also can heat instantaneous water for showers / taps etc.

Again, this is considered a little more efficient than heating central water tanks and holding them hot.

The other factor is that newer tanks are very efficient and have excellent insulation, so it's really no advantage to use instantaneous heaters anymore.

Older models here were almost uninsulated!

 

[foraloysius]

I grew up in a house that was built in the early sixties. Above the boiler of the central heating system there was a huge water heater that could be heated by the boiler. The system could be turned off and the water was then rerouted through an on demand gas water heater. The big water heater was in the laundry room, but there was only a cold water connection for the washer.

 

[passatdoc]

Louis, quite possibly my host family's house might have had a similar system. All of my visits there (initially for three months; later visits while in university and thereafter) were May-September, when they weren't heating the house. I was never there during winter or late fall. If there was a central system, it must have been turned off during the warm months, since I distinctly recall having cold water initially come out of the hot water bathroom tap until the flame lit and then hot water miraculously appeared.

The other thing I remember was everyone having a <span style="text-decoration: underline;">MINIMUM </span>of two middle names, and some with <span style="text-decoration: underline;">THREE </span>middle names. Maris was often one of those names, even for boys.   (e.g. Klaus Maria Brandauer, though he's Austrian; the same concept existed in Catholic areas of Germany and Netherlands). Although we lived in a "mixed"  area (neither Catholics nor Protestants predominated), there was a sort of de facto segregation, in that even nominally Catholic families sent their kids to Catholic schools, and Protestant families sent their kids to Protestant schools. The result was that I never met a Protestant during the entire summer. They weren't prejudiced, they were very liberal, it's just that in those days, there was only limited "mixing". See section IV below:

 

http://www.euresisnet.eu/Pages/ReligionAndState/NETHERLANDS.aspx

 

[foraloysius]

As far as I remember from my youth, there were quite a few systems for water heating. Many people had a gas tankless water heater over the kitchen sink that was also used to heat the water for the shower. Some other households had a gas tank water heater. My grandmother on my father's side had an electric tank heater. IIRC that was about the second popular way of heating water after the gas tankless heaters. The system we had wasn't very common I think.

I also remember a huge gas tankless water heater in the laundryroom of our neighbours. It didn't serve only a large house but also the sinks in the dental practice of our neighbour. I remember the big "whoop" sound when somewhere in the house a hot water tap was opened. This water heater btw, was having above the Constructa boil washing machine, but no hot water from the water heater was used by that machine.

 

[arbilab]

Fascinating. Who knew there were so many ways to produce hot water?

Grandma's house was built circa 1920. The original boiler (for radiators) was coal, later converted to natgas. Not sure I got to see the original water heater. By 1950 it was a gas burner with an open coil over it. Water in the coil convected to an adjacent tank for storage and service. Never saw anything like it before or since.

Point-of-use water heat is resurging here, I think because the waste of running the spigot until the hot appears. Even though you may only 'use' a quart of hot water, you drain 2 gallons from the tank heating the pipes. However, I have never heard of a gas P-O-U heater here. And the waste of a central gas system is probably less than the cost of electric POU. For the same amount of heat at US rates I estimate electric twice as expensive as gas.

 

[passatdoc]

One limiting factor in the USA re: POU gas heaters is that lack of gas pipes to most bathrooms. In general, gas lines run to the laundry area, the kitchen, the water heater and furnace, and that's it. It might work for new construction, but retrofitting existing homes could be expensive. Also, proper venting could be an issue. I do have friends with a large, rambling, single story home who installed a gas tankless heater on each end of the house, so they in effect have two large POU gas heaters.

 

[foraloysius]

I suddenly remembered something else. At home at a friend of mine they had a very big gas tank water heater. The house was rather big and some taps were rather far away from the water heater. They had a circulation pump installed. The hot water pipes were installed like a ring system and the pipes were insulated. If you opened a tap far away from the water heater you still had hot water instantly.