Will The TR Series Ever Go Away? Please?

[Chetlaham]

The reviews aren't getting any better. People are still voicing dissatisfaction in large numbers over TR's inability to clean clothes, like this video as an example >

 

 



 

 

So far the latest iteration doesn't seem any better. Still weak sauce, still no turn over. 

 



 

Will Speed Queen just listen and end production on their agi tub washers? I don't believe any number of software changes will improve the wash action, and, people still don't like the lid lock and no-fill with the lid open.

 

[maytag85]

It seems as though companies basically ‘put lipstick on a pig’ thinking that will solve the problem but it’s simply covering up a shoddy product and design. If the government is going to mandate certain regulations that ‘water down’ products, then maybe they should (the government) try out the machines themselves and see how they like them and if employees and politicians of the government aren’t satisfied with them, then so are we. If that happened back in 2018, they basically would get a taste of their own medicine.

 

[Chetlaham]

Took the words right out of my finger tips. Perhaps those passing the laws ought to try using these machines in person, coming from companies with limited resources to re-engineer their machines out of the blue to do what the laws of physics will essentially not allow.

 

HE has literally put companies out of business, ruined the reputation for others, overflown landfills, caused health issues, wasted resources and made countless customers outraged just for beginners. 

 

Speed Queen is not shoddy or bad design IMO, they perfected the early Amana design such that it can compete with DDs and DCs. However, now that HE mandates are in effect they were forced to reinvent an already perfected design without ample resources, engineering, time and testing. 

 

Hopefully the TR is just a temporary bridge until Speed Queen can make a descent mod shifter and brake.  

 

[gelaundry4ever]

tr series going away

I don't think it will EVER go away, unfortunately. Most Americans are too stupid to know how a washing machine works. The environmentalists are also too stupid to know how laundry should get done. I pray that these people will have a wake up call. And I mean a rude awakening. Clothes need water and agitation.
What does the government not understand? It's only gonna get worse as long as these people remain in power. Speed Queen should've competed with the GE hydrowave. We rather have clean laundry than care for the environment! You can't do both with HE whatsoever. Why are there so many complaints?

 

[qsd-dan]

The entire TR series represents inefficiency. Using a bunch of water and tickling the clothes, providing almost no rollover and poor cleaning results is taking steps backwards, not forwards. Much better off using a front loader with a heater.

 

[maytag85]

The whole TR series could just be a conspiracy (more than likely) to force people into buying front load machines which I am not too crazy about. Would only own a front loader if it was built like a Dexter commercial machine which dates back to at least the 50’s since Dexter machines are based off of the Philco-Bendix design, would be even more intriguing if a washer dryer combo was available from Dexter as well.

 

[panasonicvac]

They won't ever discontinue them. But if they did, it'd be for banning top loaders all together which I think it could happen here one of these days. If people have any doubts of buying a TR machine, my advise is to not get one. I know I had mine when I tried out this TR7 before but I was honestly shocked by how well it did my laundry, one of those moments where I shouldn't judge until after I try it out. Of course I still don't think it's as good or better than a SQ classic but I really do like it. I wouldn't mind owning one of these if I were to pass on a SQ classic. But if I were to get a SQ washer, it'd be a front loader.

 

[maytag85]

If top loaders are banned, there goes our choices of what we want and what other people want.

 

[ryner1988]

If top loaders are discontinued, it will be because manufacturers have realized there's only so efficient one can make a top loader before it becomes completely ineffective. As water and energy regulations become more stringent, manufacturers will have to adapt so it could be that their hands are tied. Modern top loaders are already for the most part not a great choice if one is buying new because so much has had to be compromised in order to meet guidelines, so I can only imagine how much worse it would get if they tried to keep them around. Probably better to just eventually axe them altogether rather than continue to sell an inferior product.

As far as having to pick between the environment and clean laundry, I absolutely believe both can happen. It doesn't have to be an either/or thing even if you have an old top loader like I do. Just wash full loads when possible, for example for a household of two I wait until both hampers are full and do two large loads every 5-7 days. If I had a front loader with greater capacity I imagine I could stretch that a bit further still.

Ryne

 

[launderess]

RyneR1988 pretty much wraps things up in a nutshell.

There are many reasons why top loading washers largely vanished from Europe post WWII and many of those are hitting USA market now that government keeps tightening up energy standards.

There's no way around it; top loading washers with central beaters or even impellers still require certain amount of water to do their job. You can only reduce water level but so much before one is simply beating things about.

Of course it's probably federal government's long game plan to get shot of top loading washers as known, period. Give it another generation or so and one predicts most if not all will go way of Dodo, at least in current configuration.

All this being said according to members with working daily knowledge of sales and customer use of SQ washers most seem happy with energy restricted cycles or whatever.

 

[john76]

Love my TR-5. It replaced a 23 year old old school Maytag top loader. My laundry area is on the first floor and the TR5 fits perfectly in the space where the Maytag was. I have cabinets above the washer and drier and the SQ was about the only washer that had a lid height low enough to clear them.

What I really like about the machine is how quiet it operates versus the old Maytag which made a racket. I have no issues with how it cleans and have a theory that it works best if you use the Auto-fill setting for all your loads. I just washed a towel I used dozens of times to wipe off my golf clubs and shoes after a round of golf. I washed it in warm water with my bath towels on a heavy duty cycle and it came out great.

 

[Chetlaham]

@Laundress: If one ignores all those on the net gripping about the down falls and byproducts of HE. Speed Queen had a following for the reason many users were unhappy with HE machines and the absurdities which come with them. Sadly the rest of the population doesn't care. Clothes in, something happens, clothes out. The mid/late 2000s taught me that clothes can literally come out worse than they came in and the washer could mold without inhibition but it wouldn't matter to the average user because the towels smelled like softener.

 

But regardless of what happens, I do believe top loads will eventually disappear one way or another for the exact reasons you stated. In the 2000s I remember visiting several service techs at local appliance dealers telling me that in a few years everything would be front load. That was 15-20 years ago, so I think the coming future has already been written.

 

 

 

[windrivers]

Maybe most are happy with the TR series and TC "Normal Eco" and such. But it would appear that the satisfaction rate, at least for the TR series, isn't anywhere near the rate for other machines. Even if only 10% are dissatisfied with a series, I would think that would still be a large number of people and a big hit to the reputation and overall satisfaction rate and trust that Speed Queen had earned.

From what I've seen, some "knowledgeable" members don't represent the facts honestly and fairly, apparently in their zeal to back the "green" agenda, and also work in fairly affluent areas where people buying the expensive machines aren't known for getting dirty, at least in the physical sense.

 

[foraloysius]

Assumptions, assumptions. Well my assumption is that people backing that green agenda would prefer frontloaders over the Speed Queen TR series. I think it’s at least impolite to say that people who like their TR are not speaking the truth.

 

[windrivers]

I can give you specifics, like John saying that the 1 hp motor in the TR uses 1/4 the energy of the 1/2 hp motor in the TC. He never would back up his "fact" when asked how a motor can use 1/4 the electricity of a motor that is already well over 90% efficient.

That's just one example. It's not an assumption. I've watched that member in particular throw out all kinds of stuff as if it's fact, and yes, it generally is in defense of the physics defying front loaders, but he also likes to defend pretty much all government regulations and modern manufacturing practices, and has, in fact, recently talked up the "Eco Normal" cycle in the TC5 as a great product of government regulation.

So you need to look at a few threads before you make your assumptions.

 

[foraloysius]

My only assumption is that "green" people prefer frontloaders over modern toploaders. Actually more fact than assumption.

Your assumptions are 1. "apparently in their zeal to back the "green" agenda', 2. "and also work in fairly affluent areas where people buying the expensive machines aren't known for getting dirty, at least in the physical sense."

I would like to see evidence of that.

Furthermore I think it is rude suggesting that members like John76 aren't speaking the truth when they say they like their TR.

 

[cfz2882]

TR vs TC motor drive method

the motor in the TR (probably 3-phase) is inverter driven,while the TC motor is split phase ran off the line-in general use in the washer,running well below it's maximum power potential,the inverter driven motor will use less power than one running at full power all the time "off the line"

 

[Chetlaham]

Diversity

I think what upsets folks is the lack of diversity, not the existence of "green" consumers. Not that some green consumers aren't pushing their views to the point of shaming non green consumers, but thats not the real issue.

 

Appliance diversity peaked in the late 90s through the mid 2000s, and since then energy standards and greed have killed it off. The example I'll use is Sears. Back in the early 2000s you not only the greatest overall top load washers ever created but you could purchase a Maytag Dependable Care if seeking longevity, GE or Hotpoint washers if seeking economy with the largest capacity at the time, Whirlpool's colorful fabric selection control panel, the luxury of Kitchen-Aid, various Maytags if they appealed to you, Frigidaire causal folks- all with 30 minute cycle times, almost all had no lid lock, and the best clothing care you could ever get. If you wanted engineering simplicity at its finest there was the Fisher and Paykal top load. Portable world washers for space saving, where the VMW should have stayed. That satisfied the non green folks. The green folks had a Whirlpool duets with the option of a heater, Maytag Neptunes with the option a heater, Kenmore FLs, Frigidaires. If seeking luxury there was Bosch. If you wanted a HE but in top load flavor there was the Maytag with the two plates, the Calypso in both the Kenmore and Whirlpool version, the GE harmony, and IIRC a Cabrio type machine came along later on. Maytag drying center if you wanted it. Just off the top of my head.

 

All, and I mean ALL folks could get anything they were seeking, in any balance, at any budget, at any level, with longevity and clothing care that simply unmatched today. Even an extensive quiet pack, which was so common among the upper end lineups, could be obtained standard on MOL and TOL models. 

 

And that was just washers. Don't get me started on Dryers, Dishwashers, Ovens... Polara range anyone?

 

This utopia simply does not exist today. All front loads and all top loads are literally carbon copies of the same distant ancestor that was never intended to be a full size machine, all equally deprived of material, equally washing in wet nap states, equally slow fills, equally long cycle times, equally poor clothing care, equally <span data-dobid="hdw">blasé cleaning, equal lid locks. Despite the fact most of it has nothing to do with economic, technological, or energy infeasibility- ie the Hydrowave washers applied DC to the motor to get around the lid lock. Why can't all 20 different brands do the same today? Or have less restrictive fills valves? Or come with a sound pack next model up? All the while so many FLs still lack water heating. 
</span>

 

 

<span data-dobid="hdw">The diversity is gone, which goes against all human ideals. I don't like exclusion. </span>

<span data-dobid="hdw">
</span>

     

 

[Chetlaham]

@Foraoysius- I Can Convert You

I know you are probably accustomed to front loaders, but I am waging a bet that if tried a Kenmore Elite TL in person you might begin to question your affinity for HE & front load washers.  I only ask that you take a look at these two pairs from the height of US appliance diversity- hands down the greatest overall washer and dryer ever made by humans- can be seen below. These two rival or excel most EU laundry machines in all categories except extraction and energy but the payoff makes everything else very worth it IMO. Everything you could ever ask for and then some in a laundry pair. The vid doesn't do justice. 

 

 

 

 

[foraloysius]

@chetlaham

I don't think I need to be converted nor do I think others should be converted. But before you think you got a mission, I have been in the USA and in Canada quite a few times and have stayed at people's homes and also visited conventions and wash-ins. I think I have used more classic and modern North American machines than you have used European machines. Besides that I have had quite a few washers myself from all sorts. So I know what is out there on your side of the pond.

But that is not what my point was about. My main point was that it is rude to accuse people who say they like their machine of lying.

 

[Chetlaham]

I'm glad that we can agree no one should be force converted- just the way non green folks should not be converted to green folks and visa versa.

 

I still wish you could try a TOL Kenmore Elite for the fun of it just so I could get your take on it. You have a lot of insight to offer on these things.

 

Regarding WindRivers I think he may have been referring to member Combo52 (who likes to be called John) instead of member John76 since I remember combo52 made a statement about the TR motors using less energy than the TCs. Windrivers would ultimately be able to clarify.

 

[foraloysius]

No matter who he meant, it’s rude to suggest people are not telling the truth. See also Brendan’s statement about the inverter motor.

 

[foraloysius]

I don't understand what's so special about that Kenmore Elite. Just a three speed direct drive IMHO. I prefer the series before this one because that at least had all the temperature options (including Hot-Warm).

But I have used other American machines that I liked better. I prefer the belt drive Whirlpool machines because their sound is way nicer. I also liked the older Speed Queens with the clanking solenoids including the beautiful 1959 model with dispenser. I have used Frigidaire Unimatics, Multimatics, Pulsamatics etc. etc.

I have "played" with Maytags, Speed Queens, Whirlpools and Kenmores and lots of other machines. I also watched new and/or commercial machines working etc. etc. That Kenmore Elite doesn't get me excited I'm afraid.

 

[maytag85]

I agree with Louis on the older Whirlpool belt drive machines. They have a unique sound that’s distinguishable/easily identifiable and is cool seeing everything in operation with the rear access panel removed. Crazy as this sounds, I have more experience with the belt drive machines than I do the direct drives, so far the experience has been great. Making repairs and adjustments can be a little cumbersome if you are trying to do it in a laundry room but if you can move it out to a driveway or a open garage, getting access to everything is a cinch. Nice thing is the neutral drain can’t really fail on those machines unless the plunger for the spin is broken causing the tub to spin when agitating.

It’s been awhile since I’ve used my Whirlpool but I have to either find a replacement timer or find someone who can scan and 3D print the original cam assembly in the timer since it unfortunately separated on me earlier this January and the repair attempt mostly worked but doesn’t do anything on the gentle cycle other than fill up, agitate, and drain. Could get away with not using the gentle cycle but usually like to have everything in working order before putting it back into service. Don’t feel like taking it apart more than I have to and just want to get every done correctly the first time around.

 

[Ultramatic]

Oh brother.

 

 

If you're not purchasing someone else's machine, I fail to see how this is of any concern of yours.

 

Live and let live.

 

 

[windrivers]

Reply 21

Yes, I'm taking about combo52, I apologize for the confusion. I thought it would be more obvious that I was referring specifically to Laundress' reply #9, and combo52's reply in #106 of https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?91608_110, and also his previous praise of the TR over the TC in a previous thread, and had missed the fact that another John had posted in this thread. I apologize specifically to John76. I have no reason to doubt his personal experience.

Who is making assumptions? I wouldn't have given the example from other threads if you hadn't assumed I was making assumptions without knowing the background of what I was talking about. The fact that I wasn't quoting the John in this thread should have been a clue. I didn't see the need in my previous reply to call out specific members.

What is rude is making, shall we say "questionable" statements, and then when called out on them running to other threads to make more questionable statements, and then when pressed further suggest that the person asking the questions isn't intelligent enough to understand if he gave the answer. I believe the other member is just basically stating his opinions and things he can't prove as fact. Sometimes I believe he misremembers things, or that what he writes is a typo, hyperbole, or whatever. But when someone misstates something, and then can't back it up or take back, and then continues to make such statements then yes, I consider him dishonest.

Another thing that is rude is suggesting that only certain people speaking about certain things should be allowed to post. Again, that's on another thread.

Yet another thing is accusing others of making assumptions, as if what they say isn't based on something.

I could be wrong, but one certain member I had in mind claims to have been a repair tech in Beltsville, which is in the Washington DC area. I believe DC is either the most or second most affluent area in the country. I'm not clear on who his customers are now or what his business is, but I assume (okay, maybe I did make at least one assumption ) that at least many people who buy the Speed Queens in that area do have some money, and that they aren't farmers getting dirty.

I'm also making the assumption (oops another assumption) based on what I've seen and read that most people buying the TC5 are doing so because of the classic wash action, and they are doing it consciously and knowledgeably. I would be surprised if people opting for the TC5 over the TR series being pushed by SQ and their dealers then turn around and wash exclusively on the Eco cycle. I also assume that those who do and are happy with the results are office workers or such. I also have to wonder exactly how many people he meets that have a TC5 and volunteer what cycle they use. I would hope, if he's still working as a tech, that he hasn't had to repair that many no longer than they have been out. So given his past history, I am skeptical of everything he says.

 

[DADoES]

 
WindRivers, your member profile shows your sign-up date as April 2022 so you haven't been posting very long.  You may have been reading the board prior to that date but you're apparently not aware of the history.  Combo52, aka John Lefever, is an experienced service technician and appliance dealer in Beltsville MD area.  He and his brother Jeff_Adelphi (Jeff Lefever) are among the founding members of this group.  A large gathering was held at their location in August 2002.  Many early members were there.  I was there (also at the 2001 gathering in Minneapolis and 2005 in Omaha).

Perhaps the information at this link will be of interest to you.

Development of the Automatic Washer Club

 

[windrivers]

Thanks Glenn. I'm really more interested in facts than an individual's history. He may be an excellent technician who had helped many with repairs, a founding member, etc., but I don't think that gives him the right to make up his own "facts" and treat other members with disrespect. Of course, if he's an owner of the board, or has pull with the owner, I guess he can do what he wants.

 

[ryner1988]

Reply #26

That link was fascinating. Makes me wish I'd discovered this board earlier. The early 2000's appeared to be a sort of high point for the vintage appliance hobby. Although I can't repair my own machines, reading and learning about them is very interesting.

 

[combo52]

Reply number 27 in a lot of others

Hi Jeff , I stopped even bothering responding to your nonsense. When you say things like an induction motor is 90% efficient. It gave me my laugh of the day.

Why do you think manufactures would go to all the trouble of doing a three phase motor with a circuit board and everything if an induction motor is 90% efficient answer that please.

New machines use a fraction of the materials in energy to build even if they last a much shorter time they’re still going to save a lot of energy if you don’t like that want to keep your old machines more power to you.

I am still working full-time. I don’t have time to answer nonsense questions all the time I will occasionally answer them if you make an intelligent question.

I also don’t take people very seriously ifthey don’t post anything about themselves their experience, their age where they live you just don’t have any credibility.

John