Wind-up Victrolas

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sudsmaster

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As you may have noticed, I acquired my first ever wind-up Victor Victrola (Model VV-IX) last week. Also, at the same time, a '64 Magnavox console radio/stereo. Both have been loads of fun, but in this thread I'd like to discuss some "discoveries" about the Victrola.

As a mechanically minded man, and a machinist, I'm quite entranced by the inner workings of the Victrola. Especially the speed governor for the turntable, which features those little brass balls of the sort but much larger more commonly seen on old steam engines.

Then there's the "sound box", which is Victor's term for round diaphragm assembly that holds the needle. This is called the "heart" of the Victrola, because it amplifies the vibrations of the needle and transmits the airwaves to the "horn" so that humans can hear what's been recorded on a disc.

When I first got the machine, I was anxious to listen to the stack of 78's the previous owners of this house left behind. It was fun but I was a little disappointed in the sound. It was loud enough, but grating. As I researched the matter I learned that a new steel needle should be used for every playing of every record. I also learned that Victor for a time sold tungsten wire needle under the name "Tungstone". I began a search for Tungstone needles, and even won a recent auction on eBay to purchase a tin of eight. Not cheap! These haven't been manufactured for decades, and the tins especially are collector's items.

But today did some more reading and deduced that the tungsten wire used in these needles is quite fine. I remembered that in the needle cup on the Victrola was a strange little rod and wire assembly. It doesn't look like a Tungstone needle, but rather has a little spool of wire on it, with a tiny white wheel. About 1/2" of wire was spooled out of the tip of the rod, and I assumed that this could not possibly be a phono needle.

Then I got on my high power magnifiers and took a closer look. I tried to pull the wire out... no luck. I tried to turn the wheel one way or the other, but didn't see any result. I was about to use brute force on it when I decided just to clip the excess wire off, leaving about 1/16" exposed, and see what it would sound like on the Victrola.

Bingo! It wasn't quite as loud as the steel needles, but the tonal quality was 100% better. I could actually hear different instruments with a minimum of noise. After playing a record, I examined the needle, and saw that it had worn to a V shape, but I knew from my reading that this was OK, since the diameter of the needle is such that it cannot damage the grooves as it wears.

I further noticed, with the needle under magnification , the the little wheel did indeed advance the wire - but in one direction only. Not much is needed... the wire seems to wear very gradually. The coolest part is that there's a LOT of wire wound up on the spool, so for all intents and purposes this is a needle that just might last forever (or the rest of my life, at least).

Now, I get to re-listen to my 78 collection (especially the mildly hilarious "The German Twins").

In the distance I figure I'll need to do a complete cleaning and relubrication of the windup works. The grease has hardened and although the machine plays well enough it surely wouldn't hurt to get all the old grease out and put in new stuff.

That's all for now. Thanks for reading.
 
suds

it was your prior post that got me thinking about these machines as well. the inventiveness that went into machines such as these just blows my mind. here (link) is a little crash course for everybody...

some things i learned:

Victrola models NEVER have a large sound horn above the platter.

JVC stands for Japanese Victor Company!

 
Quite right. The Victrola models are the ones with lids that cover the turntable. They do have sound horns, but they are referred to as "internal" sound horns. Apparently the internal horns were not as efficient as the big external ones, until the "Orthophonic" design came along in the 20's. The Orthophonic was the result of scientific research and subsequent engineering that maximized sound quality from the reproducer (sound box) to the sound horn. The machines were usually floor standing and quite large, to accomodate the larger internal horns, I suppose. I guess the advent of electrical amplification gradually spelled the end of the acoustic grammaphone, but for a while you could buy a console that had an electrically powered turntable, a battery powered radio, and an acoustic phonograph amplification system. Quite a hybrid.
 
battery crank electric models

Those happened from about 1924 to 1926 or '27.

If I can get a charger for my old fuji camera (mine quit charging) I'd really like to share some photos of my acoustic wind up machines.

I have one which has a wind up motor, and yet uses a magnetic pickup - you attached this device to your radio to play electrically recorded discs. It's called a Carry-Ola Porta-Pickup. I've even got videos of it playing. Maybe this'd be a good time for me to break the ice with youtube and host up some videos. The photo is of the porto-pickup as it was seen in the ebay ad - sad looking.

I'm so glad there is interest in phonographs, and thank Robert Seger, our host, for providing this excellent forum where we can all share and enjoy them and each other.

Acoustically AND Electrically yours,

Bob

3-8-2007-21-26-19--bobofhollywood.jpg
 
Bob,

Videos would be fun.

The battery operated units I read about used the DC battery to power the radio... everything lese was acoustic, except for AC line to power the turntable. Apparently an option was for an AC/DC converter to power the radio from the line power.

I measured the diameter of the tungsten wire; it's about .0065 inches. Typical phonograph sapphire 78 needles are .0030 dia. I tried playing some acoustic 78's on my "new" Magnavox with the 3 mil 78 needle, and they sounded not so good. In fact, they sound much better on the Victrola (except of course there is less bass).

I have coming in a replacement #2 sound box, to try instead of the current Exportation sound box (aftermarket replacement for Exhibition soundbox). I think it will probably sound better, since it has better low-end response than the Exportation/Exhibition, and the IX Victrola tends to attenuate low end and emphasize high end.

I suppose the suitability of electrically recorded 78's for acoustic machines would tend to depend upon the diameter of the needle used to make the recording. But I also understand that acoustic 78's were purposely made with abrasive in them, so that they would hone the needle point to the correct profile to track the groove. That is why one is supposed to replace a steel needle with every record played - by the end of the record, the needle has worn down to the point where it's too big for the groove. The Tungstone avoids this problem by being a constant diameter wire, the diameter of which is not too large for the acoustic 78 groove.
 
You know I heard from an antique dealer that ice fishermen buy these old phonographs for their works. They use them to reel in their catch. Sad.

I love the old reginas and kalliopes. Especially the ones with the bee strikers and bells. Ill never own one, they go for outflippingrageous moola but they are magical somehow. Ethereal almost.
 
tungs-tones

I agree. Those were the best playing needles of their time. I have a few yet. Un-beatable for orthophonic and late acoustic victor 78's, and other records from the 1920's.

3-8-2007-23-35-51--bobofhollywood.jpg
 
carry-ola video

This is my very first you-tube video.

The audio was made without a microphone - line level directly out of the carry-ola and into my computer via a receiver.

I'm almost positive this is a tungs-tone needle you hear playing also.

Enjoy.

Bob

 
Hey, great video/audio. The sound is quiet good. I'm guessing there must have been a mic or pickup somewhere - you had to convert acoustic signals to electric to get it into your computer, right?

I don't think I have any 78 records in that good a shape, but I'm working on that issue... I'm after the fellow that sold me the Mvox and Victola to also part with some of his grandparents' 78's (they had a goodly number of them, most in perfect looking condition). Also, the rubber in the current Exportation sound box is a bit hardened so that affects the sound as well. I'm hoping the #2 I expect in soon will fix that, and I'm planning on rebuilding the Exportation when I get the right parts. Still, the Tungstone needle makes a big difference all right.

Have you ever heard of the Bernardo brand?
 
Great video, Bob! You have one of the best record collections I've ever seen. You should have a store on iTunes!

This is my Columbia Vibra-Tonal, I've not heard it play as there is a problem with the winding mechanism. I've wanted a console Victrola for a long time and actually saw one at an antique mall downtown that was made in Omaha but didn't buy it - then it was gone.
 
Rich, that needle with the wheel and wire sounds like a real find! I wish I could locate something like that. I have a few Tungs-Tone needles left in my tin but they are "extra loud" type and cause too much distortion. If I don't seat them all the way into the soundbox it helps some.

I had a guy in my area rebuild the exhibition soundbox for my Victrola XVI and it can handle the extra loud Tungs-Tones better but I feel like I'm doing damage to the soundbox by using the extra louds on it. I'm going to have to be on the lookout for that wire/wheel needle contraption you've got. That sounds like the last needle anyone would ever need to buy for their talking machine. Meanwhile my stash of use-once needles is doing a decent job.

Anybody ever use "cactus" needles? I found the sound quality to be inferior with those.

Ralph
 
Bob, that was badass! Much smoother and cleaner than i expected. First thought that sprang to mind was Joan Crawford. Joan often sang in her early sound movies, and her vocal style was VERY similar to the record you just played. If I didnt know better, i would think that was Joan singing.
 
Columbia Viva-tonal

That's a rather early record by Ruth Etting on the Columbia Viva-tonal label, which at that time were called the records without scratch.

I've also got the giant Columbia Viva-tonal model 810 which is a large acoustic machine much like a Victor Orthophonic Credenza.

I've shown this photo before, but here is the machine when I first got it and had the grill off to show the stereo-scopic horn. The machine now has an extra heavy custom made dolly under it so I can move it around, and lives in the dining room. Notice how LARGE this machine is~ it's huge.

Gansky - what's wrong with the motor on yours? I may have spare parts here or can steer you in a direction to have the motor sent out and repaired. Yours is a very cute machine and looks to be about a 1929 model, perhaps.

3-9-2007-11-17-46--bobofhollywood.jpg
 
Suds, the sound you are hearing IS the pickup in the phono. It's the 30s equivalent to a magnetic cartridge, through a stereo reciever, right into the line-in on a computer. I've seen this machine in person. It's very neat to see and hear it play.

It just looks painfully heavy on those records, like it will wear them down.
 
Bob,

Oh, I see. I thought it was an acoustic phonograph. Instead, it must be an electric phonograph. So basically you're using the phono input on the receiver to tansfer the electronic audio signal to the computer.

I think in the 30's they had ceramic phono pickups. I just bought a replacement ceramic cartridge for my 40 something Sears Silvertone. The unit had a cartridge, but it was missing the needle (assembly?) and I couldn't find a needle replacement, so instead I got an updated cartridge plus needle replacment.

Now all I have to do is to get the rest of the consle working, as in tubes, wire reels, etc.

Also got in a "new" cartridge for the Magnavox console. Stereo sounds much better, the base for the phono is much improved (it was already great for the radio portion).
 

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