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thomasortega

thomasortega

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We had a limited price target and dimensions for this category of product.

Also, we sell a matching spin dryer, which is our best selling product.

We're also working on a fully automatic HATL washer, a fully automatic HATL washer-dryer combo with a VENTED dryer (220V Electric or 110V Gas) and a fully automatic HATL washer-dryer combo with a condensing dryer (110V Electric).

But those are for next year only, starting by the washer only, followed by the condenser combo, then 220V vented and gas vented.
 
"Not really my bag,but "no spin"?"

Am by no means an expert, but imagine coming up with a top loading h-axis washer that can also cope with spin/extraction is no easy feat.

Here is an older AEG 664 with final rpm of "just" 560 rpms.



Brandt Statomatic


Now a more modern Miele SoftTronic:



Notice the Miele is rock solid stable even at 1400 rpms. But care to have a guess how much it costs, and or R&D that went into getting to that level?

A simple (no offence intended) top loading H-axis washer that does not spin is far easier (and cheaper) to design and build than one which incorporates extraction.

Commercial/industrial laundries used "pony washers" that didn't extract for nearly 100 years (give or take) until early 1950's when first washer/extractors were invented.

There is nothing inherently wrong with not spinning between wash and rinse, then all subsequent rinses. Front loaders have and still do offer this option on certain cycles. It is normally suggested such loads be half or less of rated capacity. This increases the water to load ratio which helps with better rinsing.

Above and or one must have more rinse cycles to increase dilution factor before final extraction. Older front loaders that only extracted once if that between rinses had five or more deep rinses using ten gallons or more for 5kg of wash.

Many modern front loaders have rinses down to three or less, with maybe more, but use may less water for each rinse cycle.

Extracting between rinses means load will absorb more water at subsequent rinse cycles. But because pressure is being used to push chemicals and dirty water out of wash instead of just dilution, some feel it gives better results.

Still others (including many laundry professionals) feel extracting after wash and between first (of a series) of rinses forces dirty/soapy water through fabrics which will act as a strainer. So there is quite a bit of range....

Being as all this may have used the Miele to wash loads that one knows or suspects won't spin properly. Simply use the permanent press cycle that does not spin between rinses. When machine is done, set it to drain, then either put wash through mangle or use the spin dryer.
 
Launderess, you're absolutely right.

The concept around this washer is the following: It has to be extremely lightweight to make it easier for an elderly customer living in an RV or mobile home be able to slide the washer from the closet to the bathroom or kitchen and connect it to the faucet and then slide it back to the storage place after use. It also can not damage the floor (considering a delicate "cheap" laminate floor)

MSRP has to be under $250. A Niagara + a Ninja spin dryer (the new model just released) can NEVER cost more than 80% of the MSRP for a Whirlpool/Amana/Roper washer.

Capacity has to be equal or at least very close to a full size BOL Amana/Roper/Whirlpool washer. (Which was a pain to make the drum large enough to fit 20 lbs of clothes in it).

It MUST be able to wash at least a queen-size duvet. (It can actually wash king size, but it's a pain to unload)

The washer dimensions and weight, with packaging, must be compliant with FedEx dimensioning formula to avoid paying an absurd $140 additional fee per shipment just because one of the box dimensions is millimeters or the weight is 10 grams above the limit. I literally pushed it to the very limit, with 1 millimeter tolerance and only 10 grams below the limit.

making it spin would make the washer more expensive, much heavier and the shipping would also be much higher because of the weight and volume, making it impossible to reach the customers that live in a budget. The suspension and counterweights take space, so the drum would be smaller, consequentially the capacity would be reduced. We would also have to transfer the dispensers to the lid, which is very complex and raises the cost.

It is a far superior alternative to Chinese-made washers. It eliminates the hassle of draining, filling, rinsing, manually.

We're also about to release a BOL version of the Niagara. The new version has only a 20-minute shut off timer, manual fill, and drain pump.

The version that was released today is the TOL version, with automatic fill, several different cycles, from heavy duty to ultra delicate, automatic rinses, fabric softener dispenser. To keep the unit lightweight, the whole body is made of PP and the drum is Stainless Steel.

The rinses are very decent, 3 (very) deep rinses. I managed to find a gap to run away from the EPA Eco-Nazi standards.
 
so an elderly person is of concern for moving/rolling the machine, but not of handling heavy wet clothing transfer from washer to spinner....

add in bending to empty the bucket from the spinner.....

just trying to picture all of this, and to look at the practical side of things...

229.00 for a machine......add in the cost of a spin dryer....two plugs, and towels to dry the floor from water of transferring clothes...

this may fit a certain criteria....but sometimes I think a twin tub would be a better option....

for example....this Giantex….washes, drain, rinses and spins....re-use of wash water....at about half the price of the washer alone!

again, may not fit everyones needs, but if I had a choice...

https://www.amazon.com/Giantex-Port..._rd_wg=GEfNB&pf_rd_p=43281256-7633-49c8-b909-
yogitunes-2019080906332701559_1.jpg
 
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All the Chinese twinnies look like they came out of the same <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">dungeon</span> umm <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">sweatshop</span> umm factory.  I've got one, Panda.  Works well BUT you've got to be there pretty much the whole time.  The impeller speed is rough on fabric, likely using the same motor and pulley for 50 and 60Hz.  Tangling IS an issue.  Spinner is aces.

 

Watch those BOL models, they're gravity drain.
 
The problem with the TTs is the capacity...

If you have a big family, you'll have to run several loads in it, and also babysit...

I personally love TTS (I have two) but I have to make what the market wants... We're full of chinese TTs, hundreds of models and brands and makes...

Regarding the dripping, i can unload the washer and load the spin dryer WITHOUT dripping a single drop on the floor and not taking "forever" by transferring one item at a time. The washer has a "drip drain" cycle.... tumbling the load during the drain.
 
Capacity

My AEG Lavamat toplader has same capacity as a front loading washer.

https://www.amazon.de/AEG-913212261-Waschmaschine-Toplader-46200/dp/B000U90JJS

In fact most modern topladers can be had right at same capacities as front loaders 5kg to 7kg.

Older units such as the AEG 485 had rated capacities for normal/cottons/linens at just a hair below front loaders, around 4.5 kg. But again you have to keep in mind these older machines lacked the sophisticated motor, drum and other controls to deal with OOB loads. This or indeed to keep machine stable even with a relatively normal load.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/775130/Aeg-Lavamat-480.html?page=12#manual
 
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>> The concept around this washer is the following:
>> ...
>> making it spin would make the washer more expensive, much heavier and the shipping would also be much higher
>> ...
>> The suspension and counterweights take space, so the drum would be smaller, consequentially the capacity would
>> be reduced. We would also have to transfer the dispensers to the lid, which is very complex and raises the cost.

Thomas, I think you have thought this through, and it makes sense to you... but it would be helpful if your website communicated some of these design balances to your customers. For example, in the description section, you have a bulleted (check-marked) list of features, but "no spin" is the final bullet. This makes it look like "no spin" is a feature, when of course it isn't - it's a limitation that was accepted as part of a tradeoff for other aspects. Since customers don't know that other aspects were improved (or made possible) because of the elimination of the spin cycle, they won't understand any value that this design decision brings - it just looks like a shortcoming.

I think it would also be helpful if you clarified how this machine fit into the "system" of machines you sell. For example, most people are familiar with having a washer and a dryer. Some percentage in ideal climates may get by with a washer only, and do their drying on a line outside. But a large-capacity washer in the modern world that doesn't have a spin cycle is a real curveball. Would a no-spin washer produce clothes that are too wet for going directly into a traditional tumble dryer? Would it work, but waste so much energy in the lengthened drying process that it negates the savings from using an efficient washer? Obviously your spin-dryer is an option, but I'm not sure it is a "solution" for someone wanting clothes to go from wash to completely dry without hanging. And the thought of needing *three* machines (a washer, a spin-dryer, and a tumble dryer) due to a "shortcoming" of the washer or a mismatch between the washer and tumble dryer, would be an instant deal-breaker for many, especially those in your target RV & Mobile Home markets where space is at a premium.

It also seems to be perhaps oversized compared to your other products, so some of those tradeoffs were wasted? That 10kg (22lb) wash capacity is quite a bit more than your Ninja spin dryer (17lb) or tumble dryer (7.7lb), so each full wash load is going to take multiple passes through the dryers... and if someone were to wash something that utilized the machine's full capacity, or close to it, they are left scratching their heads on how to dry it? (Maybe you have a larger dryer in the pipeline to complement this?)

Not intending to sound negative... just some things that stand out from looking at your website. As an outsider, I could see the appeal, but it leaves one with a lot of questions on how it all works in practice.
 
To be fair

Laundry Alternative has (or had) that mega spin dryer with a rated capacity of 22 lbs.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/The-Laun...ntless-Portable-Electric-Dryer-110V/169449273

That being said as one who again often transfers sopping wet wash from either a washing machine or tubs into spin dryer, it can get old fast. IMHO American housewives and others contemplating this washer ought have the fact it does not extract hugely reinforced. People see what they want, and even when something is clearly mentioned in advertising/marketing copy no end glace over. Only to get the thing and find out it isn't what they wanted/needed, then all heck breaks loose.

While many of us here love the idea of an "old fashioned" wash day using various semi-automatic laundry appliances, people need to clearly understand what they're getting.

post was last edited: 8/9/2019-23:42]
 
The tumble drain imparts some centrifugal force.  Given some time the result may not sop. 

 

Yes, three laundry machines runs up against the 'compact' concept. Not readily stackable either, their weights and functions.  Except for the donut store my entire life takes place in ~300 sq ft; those 3 machines in use would glom the entire kitchen floorspace.  Might could/not even open the fridge.

 

Nature of invention and subsequent marketing.  The compromises, pricepoint, and most intangibly at the outset, market demand/acceptance.  You don't know what those dice say until you platz your money and wait until they stop rolling.

 

Congrats and best wishes to Thomas and TLA.
 
In our case, believe it or not, it's a feature...

You have no idea about the number of customers that contact us asking if there is a way to make a version of the Silk with no spin.

That's because most of our customers "smuggle" washers into apartment complexes and they don't want the neighbors or the manager or the landlord hearing any noise.

We even had to get rid of the end of cycle buzzer because of that.

ALso with the price, weight and dimensions limitation, we also considered the number of customers that asked for a "no spin at all" automatic washer.

Also note this is ONE version. there will be other HATL versions with up to 1500 and 1700 RPM spin and manually selectable spin speeds almost like a dimmer.

We will have a total of 9 different HATL models, from a super BOL no spin and just a 20-minute shut off timer to a high end washer-dryer combo full of bells and whistles like touchscreen that's also Alexa and Google home enabled. We just release one of the models now, the TOL of the no spin versions.
 
22 Pound Capacity ?

In a plastic machine that weighs 20 pounds, 22 pounds of bath towels is about 22 large bath towels, I bet you would have a hard time getting 10 towels in the machine.

 

Then show us a video of 22 pounds of towels washing in this washer.

 

Sopping wet this load will weigh 50 pounds + and I have yet to see a spin drier that can handle this size load, I have a SpinX that can handle about 4 towels and that is a heavy load for it.

 

John L.
 
Should note: Mine is "smuggled", neighbor a chronic complainer, no problem has arisen.  As well, building is flimsy, absolute minimum to squeak by code.  I do run it infrequently and redistribute if it shimmies.

 

The one remaining mainstream US appliance mfr is not going to come out with 'alternatives' and China only copies what's already been done.  Puts TLA in favorable position.
 
I too would like to see a video of it handling a load bigger than the Norge20 or Frigidaire 1-18!...

lets see, Pearl Bailey is not around anymore, but I bet Betty White would be a good spokesperson!

Avanti already offers a fully automatic machine with a No-Spin, No chime options...
 
John

It handles that load easily.

Of course, the dry load will be packed in the drum, but one is starts filling, the load saturates then there's room to wash them.

It depends, of course, on your definition of "large". The test is considering a standard "hotel" towel, not those Lacoste giant towels sold at Macy's. four of those towels would fill that LG top load washer that claims to have the largest drum in the world.
 
I have one of these!

So I got the Niagara over a year ago, to help cope with laundry during the pandemic. The laundry room in my building is ten floors down and surrounded by stinking garbage and recycling. No way am I washing my clothes down there. Disgusting.

I bought a cheap spin dryer first, but it was always out of balance, so I replaced it with the (slightly smaller) model from The Laundry Alternative. Unfortunately this forces me to usually run the Niagara slightly under capacity. On the plus side, that aids with rinsing and the clothes I think tend to get a bit cleaner.

My routine with this machine is to drop it and my spin dryer into my bathtub, so I don't have to worry about leaks or flooding. It's amazingly light for something so large - I have no trouble picking it up and plopping it in the tub. I set its feet and the spin dryer's on little foam feet to help isolate noise and vibration, and close the bathroom door while it's running. I actually have a compact soundbar in the bathroom, hooked up to an Amazon Echo Dot, and play a Spotify "Laundry" playlist while the machines are running to help cover the noise - lots of electronic music with deep grinding bass. My bathroom is right next to the front door and shares a wall with the hallway on one side and the vent shaft on the other, so it's important to disguise the noise as well as possible and this works great.

I run it thru a full cycle, remove the clothes, drop them in the spin dryer, partially refill the machine on the short wash cycle, then let it drain to remove soap residue and begin the rinse cycles over again. Once it refills for the rinse cycle I remove the clothes from the spin dryer and plop them in for another set of rinses, followed by a final trip thru the spin dryer and then off to a compact cheap tumble dryer I got off Amazon.

It's a hassle, but no more of a hassle than our nasty laundry room. And the machine paid for itself in weeks compared to taking my stuff to a local cleaners. During the pandemic I've been working from home and dressing light, so I don't do tons of laundry, meaning the extra work required isn't really that much of a burden.

The machine cleans well and doesn't make tons of noise, although I wish it were a bit quieter and had its own foam isolation between the machine and the skid pads. I get why they included a pump but I wish the machine also just allowed you to opt for gravity drain, since the pump is probably the noisiest thing about the machine. Unfortunately if you just throw the hose in the floor of the tub all the water drains out - there isn't a valve that closes it off while it's washing. So I have to use a bungee cord to hook the drain hose to a shower rack and keep it elevated above the water level in the tub. Another drawback is hose and cord storage - it doesn't really have any. I wish there were recesses in the back to hold the hoses and cord flush - they'd make it much easier to store the machine. The dimensions of the machine are OK, but I feel like it's actually both taller and deeper than it really needs to be and could be shaved down a bit. An option for separate hot and cold water inputs and internal mixing would probably be great too for people who have hookups.

My ideal machine would be a touch wider than this one, similar height but shallower, with the drum being a few inches greater in diameter. I think it would be easier to store for most people. It would be stealth - I'd make it look like a large laundry hamper with no visible controls or hoses - they'd be beneath the lid or concealed behind a panel in the back. It would have a valve to seal off the drain hose during wash and rinse, so you could just flop it into your tub or shower, with an option to turn off the pump and just gravity drain. It would have spin cycles, optional hot and cold water inputs w/mixing, and also feature clothes drying capabilities. Being able to replace three machines with one would be worth a lot of money to me - I'd easily pay $600 for such a gadget, probably more.

Here's hoping we see more of these horizontal axis washers in the US market. I can't understand why anybody would deal with the hassle of a front-load washer - all the gaskets, the stooping over, the mold issues, etc. - when this design is available.
 
Its all about cost, cost and cost.

Spin cycle? Nope! That involves a suspension system = added weight (a lot) and $$$$$$.

Hot water inlet, nope... 99% of users will have it hooked up to a kitchen or bathroom sink. Adding a valve means a more expensive washer in a market with consumers that fighting for pennies. $0,25 tag price difference can make the product leave first Page and end up on Page 457 on Amazon.

Oh but for a quartel less I can buy a xing xuang twin tub on ebay. Adiós TLA, that other Chinese washer is definitely much better because is 15 inches tall, 20 inches wide and the seller claims it can wash 500lbs of clothes per cycle. The warranty is only 90 days, compared to the TLA 3-year hassle-free warranty but who cares? 25 cents is 25 cents. That's how vast majority of consumers behave.
 
Questions

Thomas,

I’ve always been interested in this washer, and I don’t fit into your typical scenarios. I don’t have an RV, and I own my home.

This washer appeals to be simply because I am frustrated with the lack of choices and expense in trying to find a washer that use tap hot, enough water, had a good wash action, etc. And I’d really love one with no electronics (like the Whirlpool model I had in the 90s!). Right now, I have a Maytag mvwp575gw. The only other washer I would consider would be the TC5 (it was not available in 2018). The SQ now costs about $1400 where I live. I don’t expect it to come back down in price even after things get back to normal in a year or two from now??? Everything I have read says its repair rate is higher or the same as other top models. Reliability really means is just last longer if you can afford the parts and do the work yourself. While I could afford that if I put a priority to it, I can assure you I am not in the target income market of people who normally buy SQ.

I already use a spin dryer. I personally can’t see myself going back to not having one. I truly see the savings every month and I also feel like it gets that last little bit of extra detergent out too.

How many cycles do you expect this washer to last? How much clothes does it hold when compared to a top load 3 to 3.5 cu. ft. tub? Do you have a cycle matrix chart for this model that shows how much time for each part of a cycle?

It looks like a mechanical timer? Interesting that you can do this, and everyone else has went to expensive control boards.

What would be really cool is if you could somehow design a demo model with a clear front to demonstrate the wash action.

I also would be interested in the other models that are coming out later. I do think you can sell to a larger target market if a spin cycle of at least 700 rpm could be included.

Thanks for sharing and any information you can provide.
 
Using hot water is actually very simple, just get a Y-hose from Homo Depot, then select the temperature on the valve.

Indeed, it has no electronics AT ALL!

Clear demo version... hummm nope... too much money involved and the ROI would make the CEO freak out. Wash action is similar to a front load washer, 59 rpm and the water level is absurdly high for what people are used to see nowadays.

There will be a fully automatic version (800 rpm spin) and a washer-dryer combo version (1500rpm) with all the bells and whistles one can imagine, including smart integration, that zillions of consumers buzz me every single day to have.
 
I would love to have a BOL Niagara! As one who uses a wringer washer often, I like the hands on approach and the limitless rinses/ water levels one could have with this machine. I'm glad it will have a water pump as I have no floor drain in my basement.
 
Considering the logistics and semiconductors worldwide chaos, I'm glad we still have enough products in stock for another month.

Deep inside me, one could hear the bell sounding and watch me panicking because I know that sooner or later we will end up running out of stock for nearly all our courrent models.
One model (Silk Lux) is being phased out simply because we can't find reliable semiconductor suppliers to make the PCBs.

We're also struggling to keep our prices. Both freigh (containers) and shipping (each box sent to the final consumer) suddenly skyrocketed almost overnight. Freight prices are now up to SEVEN times more expensive.

To make things even worse, this chaos started a few days after we released two new models, Drop! and Revo and both models were an instant success with sale numbers 3x above what we were expecting.

If this continues for too long, in less than four months, ALL manufacturers in the USA will end up in a huge halt never seen before the situation now is worse than the first days of the COVID-19 pandemic, when the whole world stopped. LG chemical and DuPont already warned us they can't fulfill our next orders for polypropylene and ABS.

The only thing I can say now is, if you're planning to buy any imaginable consumer products or automobile, do it right now because virtually everything will soon be out of stock.
 

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