You asked for a Horizontal-Axis Top Load washer?

[thomasortega]

Well, it's finally here!

The Laundry Alternative Niagara.

https://laundry-alternative.com/col...matic-washer/products/niagara-washing-machine.

Oh, and the name Niagara is because of the water sloshing noise. I intentionally made the water level absurdly high, almost halfway up, to have a more-than-merely-decent performance.

 

[spinmon]

Not really my bag,but "no spin"? The laundry just tinkles on the floor?

 

[thomasortega]

We had a limited price target and dimensions for this category of product.

Also, we sell a matching spin dryer, which is our best selling product.

We're also working on a fully automatic HATL washer, a fully automatic HATL washer-dryer combo with a VENTED dryer (220V Electric or 110V Gas) and a fully automatic HATL washer-dryer combo with a condensing dryer (110V Electric).

But those are for next year only, starting by the washer only, followed by the condenser combo, then 220V vented and gas vented.

 

[launderess]

"Not really my bag,but "no spin"?"

Am by no means an expert, but imagine coming up with a top loading h-axis washer that can also cope with spin/extraction is no easy feat.

Here is an older AEG 664 with final rpm of "just" 560 rpms.



Brandt Statomatic


Now a more modern Miele SoftTronic:



Notice the Miele is rock solid stable even at 1400 rpms. But care to have a guess how much it costs, and or R&D that went into getting to that level?

A simple (no offence intended) top loading H-axis washer that does not spin is far easier (and cheaper) to design and build than one which incorporates extraction.

Commercial/industrial laundries used "pony washers" that didn't extract for nearly 100 years (give or take) until early 1950's when first washer/extractors were invented.

There is nothing inherently wrong with not spinning between wash and rinse, then all subsequent rinses. Front loaders have and still do offer this option on certain cycles. It is normally suggested such loads be half or less of rated capacity. This increases the water to load ratio which helps with better rinsing.

Above and or one must have more rinse cycles to increase dilution factor before final extraction. Older front loaders that only extracted once if that between rinses had five or more deep rinses using ten gallons or more for 5kg of wash.

Many modern front loaders have rinses down to three or less, with maybe more, but use may less water for each rinse cycle.

Extracting between rinses means load will absorb more water at subsequent rinse cycles. But because pressure is being used to push chemicals and dirty water out of wash instead of just dilution, some feel it gives better results.

Still others (including many laundry professionals) feel extracting after wash and between first (of a series) of rinses forces dirty/soapy water through fabrics which will act as a strainer. So there is quite a bit of range....

Being as all this may have used the Miele to wash loads that one knows or suspects won't spin properly. Simply use the permanent press cycle that does not spin between rinses. When machine is done, set it to drain, then either put wash through mangle or use the spin dryer.

 

[thomasortega]

Launderess, you're absolutely right.

The concept around this washer is the following: It has to be extremely lightweight to make it easier for an elderly customer living in an RV or mobile home be able to slide the washer from the closet to the bathroom or kitchen and connect it to the faucet and then slide it back to the storage place after use. It also can not damage the floor (considering a delicate "cheap" laminate floor)

MSRP has to be under $250. A Niagara + a Ninja spin dryer (the new model just released) can NEVER cost more than 80% of the MSRP for a Whirlpool/Amana/Roper washer.

Capacity has to be equal or at least very close to a full size BOL Amana/Roper/Whirlpool washer. (Which was a pain to make the drum large enough to fit 20 lbs of clothes in it).

It MUST be able to wash at least a queen-size duvet. (It can actually wash king size, but it's a pain to unload)

The washer dimensions and weight, with packaging, must be compliant with FedEx dimensioning formula to avoid paying an absurd $140 additional fee per shipment just because one of the box dimensions is millimeters or the weight is 10 grams above the limit. I literally pushed it to the very limit, with 1 millimeter tolerance and only 10 grams below the limit.

making it spin would make the washer more expensive, much heavier and the shipping would also be much higher because of the weight and volume, making it impossible to reach the customers that live in a budget. The suspension and counterweights take space, so the drum would be smaller, consequentially the capacity would be reduced. We would also have to transfer the dispensers to the lid, which is very complex and raises the cost.

It is a far superior alternative to Chinese-made washers. It eliminates the hassle of draining, filling, rinsing, manually.

We're also about to release a BOL version of the Niagara. The new version has only a 20-minute shut off timer, manual fill, and drain pump.

The version that was released today is the TOL version, with automatic fill, several different cycles, from heavy duty to ultra delicate, automatic rinses, fabric softener dispenser. To keep the unit lightweight, the whole body is made of PP and the drum is Stainless Steel.

The rinses are very decent, 3 (very) deep rinses. I managed to find a gap to run away from the EPA Eco-Nazi standards.

 

[thomasortega]

I forgot to mention.

It is made in Argentina (joint venture with a very traditional Argentinian company) and the project is 49% theirs and 51% mine.

This partner have a similar model available in Argentina for years. Now their new model will be the same as the American version.

 

[yogitunes]

so an elderly person is of concern for moving/rolling the machine, but not of handling heavy wet clothing transfer from washer to spinner....

add in bending to empty the bucket from the spinner.....

just trying to picture all of this, and to look at the practical side of things...

229.00 for a machine......add in the cost of a spin dryer....two plugs, and towels to dry the floor from water of transferring clothes...

this may fit a certain criteria....but sometimes I think a twin tub would be a better option....

for example....this Giantex….washes, drain, rinses and spins....re-use of wash water....at about half the price of the washer alone!

again, may not fit everyones needs, but if I had a choice...

Amazon.com

 

[arbilab]

All the Chinese twinnies look like they came out of the same <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">dungeon</span> umm <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">sweatshop</span> umm factory.  I've got one, Panda.  Works well BUT you've got to be there pretty much the whole time.  The impeller speed is rough on fabric, likely using the same motor and pulley for 50 and 60Hz.  Tangling IS an issue.  Spinner is aces.

 

Watch those BOL models, they're gravity drain.

 

[thomasortega]

The problem with the TTs is the capacity...

If you have a big family, you'll have to run several loads in it, and also babysit...

I personally love TTS (I have two) but I have to make what the market wants... We're full of chinese TTs, hundreds of models and brands and makes...

Regarding the dripping, i can unload the washer and load the spin dryer WITHOUT dripping a single drop on the floor and not taking "forever" by transferring one item at a time. The washer has a "drip drain" cycle.... tumbling the load during the drain.

 

[cuffs054]

Just checked to see if Staber was still making machines, yep still going.

 

[launderess]

Capacity

My AEG Lavamat toplader has same capacity as a front loading washer.

https://www.amazon.de/AEG-913212261-Waschmaschine-Toplader-46200/dp/B000U90JJS

In fact most modern topladers can be had right at same capacities as front loaders 5kg to 7kg.

Older units such as the AEG 485 had rated capacities for normal/cottons/linens at just a hair below front loaders, around 4.5 kg. But again you have to keep in mind these older machines lacked the sophisticated motor, drum and other controls to deal with OOB loads. This or indeed to keep machine stable even with a relatively normal load.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/775130/Aeg-Lavamat-480.html?page=12#manual

 

[thomasortega]

The Niagara is 10kg capacity.

 

[launderess]

Well that settles things, doesn't it?

As one stated it takes a pretty robust suspension and other systems to cope with extracting large loads of wet wash.

 

[thomasortega]

Yep, and that takes space, adds weight and the most important, adds cost to the product.

 

[lowefficiency]

>> The concept around this washer is the following:
>> ...
>> making it spin would make the washer more expensive, much heavier and the shipping would also be much higher
>> ...
>> The suspension and counterweights take space, so the drum would be smaller, consequentially the capacity would
>> be reduced. We would also have to transfer the dispensers to the lid, which is very complex and raises the cost.

Thomas, I think you have thought this through, and it makes sense to you... but it would be helpful if your website communicated some of these design balances to your customers. For example, in the description section, you have a bulleted (check-marked) list of features, but "no spin" is the final bullet. This makes it look like "no spin" is a feature, when of course it isn't - it's a limitation that was accepted as part of a tradeoff for other aspects. Since customers don't know that other aspects were improved (or made possible) because of the elimination of the spin cycle, they won't understand any value that this design decision brings - it just looks like a shortcoming.

I think it would also be helpful if you clarified how this machine fit into the "system" of machines you sell. For example, most people are familiar with having a washer and a dryer. Some percentage in ideal climates may get by with a washer only, and do their drying on a line outside. But a large-capacity washer in the modern world that doesn't have a spin cycle is a real curveball. Would a no-spin washer produce clothes that are too wet for going directly into a traditional tumble dryer? Would it work, but waste so much energy in the lengthened drying process that it negates the savings from using an efficient washer? Obviously your spin-dryer is an option, but I'm not sure it is a "solution" for someone wanting clothes to go from wash to completely dry without hanging. And the thought of needing *three* machines (a washer, a spin-dryer, and a tumble dryer) due to a "shortcoming" of the washer or a mismatch between the washer and tumble dryer, would be an instant deal-breaker for many, especially those in your target RV & Mobile Home markets where space is at a premium.

It also seems to be perhaps oversized compared to your other products, so some of those tradeoffs were wasted? That 10kg (22lb) wash capacity is quite a bit more than your Ninja spin dryer (17lb) or tumble dryer (7.7lb), so each full wash load is going to take multiple passes through the dryers... and if someone were to wash something that utilized the machine's full capacity, or close to it, they are left scratching their heads on how to dry it? (Maybe you have a larger dryer in the pipeline to complement this?)

Not intending to sound negative... just some things that stand out from looking at your website. As an outsider, I could see the appeal, but it leaves one with a lot of questions on how it all works in practice.

 

[launderess]

To be fair

Laundry Alternative has (or had) that mega spin dryer with a rated capacity of 22 lbs.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/The-Laun...ntless-Portable-Electric-Dryer-110V/169449273

That being said as one who again often transfers sopping wet wash from either a washing machine or tubs into spin dryer, it can get old fast. IMHO American housewives and others contemplating this washer ought have the fact it does not extract hugely reinforced. People see what they want, and even when something is clearly mentioned in advertising/marketing copy no end glace over. Only to get the thing and find out it isn't what they wanted/needed, then all heck breaks loose.

While many of us here love the idea of an "old fashioned" wash day using various semi-automatic laundry appliances, people need to clearly understand what they're getting.

post was last edited: 8/9/2019-23:42]

 

[arbilab]

The tumble drain imparts some centrifugal force.  Given some time the result may not sop. 

 

Yes, three laundry machines runs up against the 'compact' concept. Not readily stackable either, their weights and functions.  Except for the donut store my entire life takes place in ~300 sq ft; those 3 machines in use would glom the entire kitchen floorspace.  Might could/not even open the fridge.

 

Nature of invention and subsequent marketing.  The compromises, pricepoint, and most intangibly at the outset, market demand/acceptance.  You don't know what those dice say until you platz your money and wait until they stop rolling.

 

Congrats and best wishes to Thomas and TLA.

 

[thomasortega]

In our case, believe it or not, it's a feature...

You have no idea about the number of customers that contact us asking if there is a way to make a version of the Silk with no spin.

That's because most of our customers "smuggle" washers into apartment complexes and they don't want the neighbors or the manager or the landlord hearing any noise.

We even had to get rid of the end of cycle buzzer because of that.

ALso with the price, weight and dimensions limitation, we also considered the number of customers that asked for a "no spin at all" automatic washer.

Also note this is ONE version. there will be other HATL versions with up to 1500 and 1700 RPM spin and manually selectable spin speeds almost like a dimmer.

We will have a total of 9 different HATL models, from a super BOL no spin and just a 20-minute shut off timer to a high end washer-dryer combo full of bells and whistles like touchscreen that's also Alexa and Google home enabled. We just release one of the models now, the TOL of the no spin versions.

 

[combo52]

22 Pound Capacity ?

In a plastic machine that weighs 20 pounds, 22 pounds of bath towels is about 22 large bath towels, I bet you would have a hard time getting 10 towels in the machine.

 

Then show us a video of 22 pounds of towels washing in this washer.

 

Sopping wet this load will weigh 50 pounds + and I have yet to see a spin drier that can handle this size load, I have a SpinX that can handle about 4 towels and that is a heavy load for it.

 

John L.