You served us well, AEG!

[henene4]

So, today my grandma was doing some washing, then I returned from work and wanted to start a load with my comforter in her machine.

Went to the AEG, set my regular cycle for super rinsing (Jeans, 60C, extra rinse, gives me 7 rinses).
Hit start. Machine locks. Pauses for a second. Jumps to 1 minute, drains and locks the controls (couldn't even pause the cycle).

Tried turning off and on again, now it wouldn't start at all. It would make the audible signal that I pushed the start button, but wouldn't do anything.

Unloaded, erorr code readout: E51.
Erased that, tried restarting, same story again.

Read up on E51: Motor triac (short circut) or motor fault. Seems to be a pretty common fault with ELux machines with brush-type motors.
Opend the top, and been greated by some metalic residue arround the plastic housing of the PCB/MCU. So, yeah, that is pretty obvious.

Checked on the part price (about 220€), and checked if I could get the old one out. However, it has been so geniously designed that while you can remove some conectors (pressure switch, valves, door lock), the wires going to the motor and the heater are conected within the PCB housing, which you can't open within the machine due to space limitations. So you'd either have to remove the cabinet or disconnect the heater and motor first.
Not obvious at all what this is about, or is it?

So, talked to my grandma, who talked back with a uncle of mine who works in the electronics business and who actually bough that machine (12.10.2012, so 4 years and 4 months, plus a week or so).
He agreed that it most likely won't make sense to repair that. And given it's a 1600rpm machine (L71670FL) with a sealed tub, the bearings are only a matter of time away from failing.

I could not for the sake get it to spit out it's running time hours, but last time I checked it was at about 3000h or a bit lower.

Now, as my grandpa returns from a hospital stay in a few days, my grandma wanted a new machine ASAP.
She wanted a simmilar sized drum as now (7kg), 1600rpm spin, and if possible a curtain cycle, as well as the option to add laundry.
The laundry adding option was soon crossed out. She didn't want a Beko, that ruled out Grundig as well.
Gorenje fell out due to spin speed choices (lowest possible setting was 800rpm, which my grandma verry much disliked).

In the end, she decided on another AEG. An L61670FL.
1600rpm, 7kg. Basicly, an updated version of what she had before. Inverter motor, still a sealed tub, curtains cycles, even has the PowerShower thing (basicly like the old Bauknechts).
It's default cycles are ridicously long (3:40h for Cottons 60C, 3:30h for Cottons 40C), but it has the Time Manager thing (though only called Time Saver on AEG machines) with 4 different cycle times selectable, which will get used. A lot. Pretty much every time.
I predict the cycle times will be 3:40h, 2:40h, 2:20h, and 1:20h respectivley. That would correspond with the old one, except the longer version being added.

Ordered it through MediaMarkt, extended warranty, delivered for pretty much exactly 475€. Should arrive in a few days, wednesday or thursday.

It's the same old song. About 3000 hours of runtime seem to be industry standard for machines these days, and before the death of my father and me and my brother moving out, this machine saw a lot of use. And it washed pretty well. Rinsing was something to get used to, but the idea of rinsing more often with less water soon grew on me. And 1600rpm are certanly a great thing, they do make a difference.

Let's see how things work out. I'll keep you posted!

 

[henene4]

Update

Tried again, manged to read out 2550 operating hours. The service manual says that it only counts up to 6550 hours, which says something. It only counts full hours (1h 59min would be counted as only one hour), so 3000h seems realistic.

It further came up with an E45, which points to a door lock triac failure, so I guess that one thing lead to another.

 

[stricklybojack]

.
The SQ repair dude said door switches are the most common part failure on my brand/model of FL machine.

 

[henene4]

The door switch seems fine. It locks, but the control is convinced it's not. But the MCU part of the electronics sure is fried...

 

[foraloysius]

I was considering buying an AEG toploader and an AEG heat pump dryer, but this is really worrying. I want more from appliances than 4 years.

 

[henene4]

Sure, I would too.

But going through manufacturers:
- Candy&#92Hoover, Whirlpool, Gorenje, and Beko (Arcrelic, I think) are known for their timely limited durability. But they are cheap, so that balances out quite well.
- BSH machines seem to have some (repairable) problems (heaters, some of their first generation EcoSilence drives)
- Miele isn't what it used to be either, though, they are still good machines, just verry verry expensive
- AEGs are in a middle price range, with medium quality

By now, it appears to me it is the best to get a good price on a machine that matches your requirements. And AEG offers the best option, programm and performance curve for us.
Same with dryers: Even Mieles HP dryers are *meh* by now. Their old TwinPower design is troubled with heatpump issues. Their new once tangle.
And with HP dryers, you're looking at a 8 or so year investment anyway. The condenser will clogg, and cleaning that is a complicated, verry difficult procedure due to the sealed compressor system, that either takes ages or costs you a lot.

With heatpump dryers, AEG seems still the best bet, given they are the only dryers that still offer options that truely reverse.
And same with washers: good results, good option, good price.

 

[foraloysius]

Well, the only toploader available with the Allergy cycle is €895.-. Not exactly a good price.

 

[aeg03]

henene4,

Please can you advise on where you got data regarding Beko - Arcelik washing machines?

The model I used to use back from 2013 to 2015 was already 6 years old at the time and used every other day and it kept on going on and on. Another Beko machine I know is in use today that is around 8 years old and again keeps on going and going. I went from Hotpoint that stopped working twice with F05 to a Beko 8kg ProSmart Inverter and most of the reviews were very good. I am impressed with the quietness of the machine, even on an unbalanced spin and its build quality feels better than what I had before it. It seems Beko is well made for the price. Tap the drum in a Beko compared to Indesit-Hotpoint or Hoover and you can feel the difference in quality and thickness.

Blomberg washing machines are just rebadged Beko but more expensive. Grundig appears to share components.

AEG is what it used when I had the Lavamat 72640 with Jetsystem wash. That was one good, well build machine that went on to last 9 years with only the electronics starting to play up. Someone bought it off us and replaced the board and used it.

Newer Zanussi's from the same Elux group seem to be overly sensitive when spinning with some reviewers complaining of the washing failing to spin their washing. Had this with a Zanussi Flexi Dose model and had to sell it.

 

[henene4]

Our AEG never was to sensitive about balancing. It did balance a bit, and with big loads that could take 5 minutes, but my brother actualy has an IKEA clone of a FlexDose based machine and he has no problems what so ever.

Beko had a rough start over here in Germany. General durability seemed to be just average (no better nor worse then the competitors I mentioned) , cycle programming wasn't verry good either, they did have (a) recal(s). They never were bad, they never were good. You yourself critised the rinsing capabilities.
1 cycle per day over 6 years, that is 2000 cycles, give or take. 4000 operating hours. Seems reasonable, but not verry much ahead.
And honestly, drum quality, really? I never had a problem with a broken drum. Bekos use plastic tubs as well, and no reinforced parts at the contact points of the springs at the top of the tub, at least on the lower end machines. They use the same generic inverter system, so that's not an advantage.

Some features just lack. There is barely any 1600rpm model from either Beko or Grundig that features an Extra Rinse option. No prewash on delicate which would make up for the curtain cycle. The new Beko models only have 3 spin speed selections, which wasn't to good as well.
And price wise, not ahead of the AEG.

So, they are good. They were a choice. It just didn't make it. Not what the customer needed&#92wanted.

On AEG TLs: Yeah, on TLs they might seem not a good deal at first.
But if you check the market, something shocking becomes evident: Only 4 kinds of TLs are made:
-Miele: Good, solid machines. Cost a fortune, even for a Miele.
-Whirlpool: They make the Indesit&#92Hotpoint, BSH and Bauknecht TLs. Known for bearing and electronic failures.
-Hoover&#92Candy: Well, yeah, they changed, but given the previous history, not well know for durability.
-AEG: "Ok" price, good wash performance, good cycle selection, good spin results. And, one thing: Not that PITA detergent comartment mounted on the lid that always drips, always is dirty and hard to clean. They have recirc, AFAIK, which helps.
And, given the TLs behave linear to the FLs, Allergy Care is probably just Cottons 60C with Extra Rinse, basicly. AEG does that a lot. Jeans is Cottons with Extra Rinse, and reduced spin speeds. Same with super quick (based on Delicates super quick), Curtains (adjusted delicates with prewash).

TLs wise, choices are even worse, basicly.

 

[foraloysius]

Yes, I know what you mean about the toploaders. Before Bosch/Siemens was an option, now the only interesting models are made by Miele and Electrolux (including AEG and Zanussi).

Usually an Allergy cycle has a prolonged heating time to keep the water temperature at 60 degrees Celcius for an hour so it's more effective to kill dustmites. Normal cycles don't keep the water that hot long enough.

 

[henene4]

On our AEG, you'd usually get a good 30 minutes at about 60C. Keep in mind, of these 2:40h cycle times on the non Eco cycles, rinsing starts at 54 minutes. 20 minutes is sensing, so you have a good hour and half of mainwashing. And the AEG Allergy Care cycle is not certified by any standard, so that verry well might just be a tweaked cottons cycle. If I have the chance to check at some point, I'll look at the cycle time differences.

And, honestly, while I can understand wanting a cycle with extended high temp wash phases, there was never a washer that did not achive that if set correctly.
Miele would only give you 30min max at 60C. They claimed an hour at some point, but I don't quite belived that.
BSH has actually a surprisingly simmilar cycle structure to AEG.
AEG does have a phase without heating towards the end of the cycle, but an overall extremly long and hot wash.
Whirlpool gives you a 60C wash as long as you don't select short on cottons, however I found the Easy Care cycle to be the best performer in that sense. It basicly defaults to a full load, and gives you up to 35min of heating post enzyme stage.

And still, especially with items that actually require sanitation, a boil wash will always be the safer option.
But, yeah, most makers lack a 4 rinse, 45min at temp wash with mid-high rinse and wash levels that allows all temp selections.

 

[foraloysius]

Yes, ofcourse a boil wash is better, but my bed linens can't be boiled. I have a dustmite allergy, so I am looking for the best option. I'll guess I will have to do some more research, but then again I'm not in a hurry. Thanks!

 

[henene4]

Tore it apart

Got some parts out, put them up on Ebay.

Few things: These cheaper, slimer AEGs are sure less servicable then the deeper models. Removing the front requires you to tilt the machine back.

Some components are easy to change, for example the PCB/MCU (as soon as you look at the service manual and figure out the almost origami-type way you have to twist it to get it out), belt, heater, valves.

The tub is sealed, and the motor isn't really servicable either. I couldn't get it out myself.
It's mounted with 4 screws, all facing to the back of the machine. 2 each exactly behind each other, so you can't use a socket extension. Between these 2 mounting points, there is just enough space to almost fit a screwdriver. But only almost. And any wrenches don't fit over the screws due to their location pretty close to the tub. From the back, there is no real way to reach the back 2 of them.
From beneath, there is the bottom water pan, which I literally smashed into pieces trying to remove it.
That allowed me to remove the third screw (left one from the back of the machine, motor is mounted slightly offset to the right).
Now I thought I could then swing the motor downwards to remove the 4th screw. But it dosen't move at all.
To get to the forth screw out, I'd either have to remove the entire drum or I'd have to reach around the motor, which would then fall onto my arm, which I didn't want to risk. And even then, it's really hard to even reach that screw.
Not even the bruses are easy to remove. They have a normal hex bolt for mounting, but are so closely located to neighbouring structures that normal bits or wrenches don't fit there.

It's even small things. The pressure switch is just clipped into place, which would be perfectly fine, if the clips wouldn't be located on the side of it facing the side panel.
You literally have 15mm space behind it, and basicly have to reach arround it from the bottom. It's a chore to get out. Just clip it into place with the clips facing up, and replacing it would be a matter of 5 minutes!

Overall, these are well designed machines to get them produced quickly, efficently, and to live a certain time. Lots of easy to place clip-in-conections, lots of simpified parts (no real pressure dome, it's integrated into the sump with the ball valve).
It even has a branded pump (Askoll).
Repairing them is mostly doable, but really not a thing you'd love to do.

Attached is a picture of the PCB/MCU. I can see some missing&#92broken surface mount components.
And the exact time it came to live.
Oh, yeah, and one of the power conectors wouldn't come of. So I just cut it of.

 

[rolls_rapide]

"Tap the drum in a Beko compared to ..."

The back wall of the steel inner drum, on a previous Zanussi, was shockingly thin and tinny; i.e biscuit tin thinness.

On my current, first generation Panasonic, the steel drum is surprisingly robust.

I wonder how robust the drum will be on the new Panasonic?

 

[aeg03]

henene4,

The BEKO's I was referring to were used every day, not just once a week. They are BOL 5kg Beko's & was in a shared flat with 3 adults sharing the machine. Maybe the machine only being a 1000RPM spin is the reason why it was so reliable. The other Beko was 1000rpm. This may be a factor as to why they are going strong, I'm not sure.

I was not impressed with the rinsing on those machine, even though they tumble as they are filling, I never felt they used enough water. The Beko 8KG model I have now, has static fills which I feel is a little backwards, however, it uses plenty water on the rinses (even on full absorbent loads) and adapts itself to whether it does 2 or 3 rinses, depending on the wash load.

My Beko has an Extra Rinse and similar spin options to the Zanussi model that I had when living at parents house and these are: 600rpm, 800rpm, 1200rpm and 1500rpm.

I do dislike the ECO Cotton cycle on the Beko. I can only select the 40 degree or 60 degree option and also the final spin lasts 17 minutes long, so the final spin at 1500rpm goes on and on. I'm not sure why this was designed like this. Maybe to cheat the EU tests? I cannot see any Beko model in the UK saying it has Optisense on it but the models sold in mainland Europe says they feature Optisense, so I wonder if the UK models have it but they don't mention it.

I really love the AEG models with the Jetsystem in them but the drums are very big and these are too big for me as a single person. Even though I tend to wash big full loads, I just don't need a drum bigger than 8kg. If an AEG in 8KG was offered in the UK with a Jetsystem, I would buy it. But I would hope that the balance sensor was not too sensitive. The 2002 AEG Lavamat 72640 that my family had was not sensitive at all and occasionally, the drum would hit the glass door, but that machine was wonderfully durable. It was the best washing machine I ever had.

Rolls Rapide,

It would be interesting to know. I have never had any experience with Panasonic washing machines. they look great feature wise.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Drum thickness

The Panasonic arrived, and the rear wall of the inner drum is...

...as thin and tinny as the Zanussi!

In all fairness, the Panasonic will probably be no worse than the majority of other machines. In its favour, the Panasonic has a Zanussi style pumped jetsystem, which has three separate streams. It reminds me (a bit) of the four water streams on my 1998 model AEG Lavamat. And it has the Sazanami drum with few holes - Panasonic's answer to Miele's Honeycomb drum.

I also has an optical sensor to detect the clarity of the wash and rinse water. I'm not sure if this works in all programmes, or if it is only on the fully-automated "Autocare" programme. This programme selects wash time, temperature, number of rinses and final spin speed, based upon what info the sensors are feeding back to the computer.

 

[henene4]

Delivered, set up and running

So, it arrived around 10:30 this morning.

Set it up. Usual thing, hard to remove shipping screws, usual generic water-protect hose.
However these feet are a b*tch. You need a 30mm wrench to adjust them. Most of these barely fit under the machine.
And they are so grippy that as soon as you turn them, the whole machine torques around them and moves.
Anyway, got it mostly level.

Cycle times: WOW! It defaults to 3:35h on Cottons 60C. The four cycle time selections avaible are 3:35h, 3:30h (why that?), 2:40h (probably goona be used most) and 1:40h.
Funny thing I noticed: 1600rpm actually extends the cycle time.
However, on Cottons 90C, the both longer cycle times are the same, and if you add a prewash, the shorter 2 of the longer 2 cycles (so 3 bars in the displays) is longer then the longer one.
It does have an instant door lock, which even unlocks once heating started.

Right now it is doing it's first cleaning wash on Cottons 90C which sensed to 1:44h empty.
Motor is pretty silent. Drum runs smooth, and feels smooth as well.

Gonna run a load today or tommorow.

 

[henene4]

Getting more and more impressed

Now, I checked back when it reached temp. It reaches the proper boilwash temp with ease (that is 80-82C for ELux machines). It actually reheated once even though there was no load in there.
It did the typical ELux tumbles (Fast/Slow), but actually used its motor brakeing capabilities at the end of each tumble, bring the drum to an abrupt stop.

It cooled down, emptied, and started the first rinse without interim spin. Quite a good water level, right up to the rim of the drum.
Interim spin, second rinse.

Then, the final spin started at 22min. It did a first prespin up to about 600rpm, which lasted until about 18min.
At 17rpm, it started into its staged final spin. At about 13min, it reached its full spin speed (1550rpm).
Now, I was used to a fullspeed spin for about 3-5 minutes. I thought it would stop spinning at 8min, but it didnt.
Then I thought, well, maybe 8 minutes.
Nope. It spun for the full 12 minutes at 1550rpm.
Connecting that to the cycle time shorting behaviour of the time save option, it should do this on every time setting except the shortest one.
I'm really looking forward to these extraction results.

Now, I had load going in the Baunecht which it struggled to rinse and spin (some heavy cotton sweaters mixed with some T-Shirts and lighter items).
So, I threw that into there togive it a rinse and quick spin.
Set it to rinse only, 1600rpm. Supposed to take 26 minutes. It started filling (static), then paused, the contiued to fill while tumbling.
And it filled, and filled, right up to about 6cm up the door glass. I was impressed.
It started spinning at 11 minutes (so a shorter spin time). Given the mention these struggled spinnning, I thought that would be a mess.
Nope. The distribution consists of 6 reversing tumbles, each a little faster the the previous one, until distribution is reached.
It balanced the load in one try. Went through a short spin version and stayed at full speed for about 2 minutes
Slowed down and unlocked right away.

Now, I just looked at some cycle configuartions (the longest cycle is Cottons Eco 60C with extra rinse and prewash, taking 6:05h).
By accident, I scrolled over the rinse only cycle and hestitated for a minute: The cycle time now displayed 22 minutes.
So, though I'm not sure yet, it seems this machines has an adaptive cycle programming like Miele had.

If it washes as well as the old one, this is a great machine!

 

[panthera]

Miele

I had a Miele Toploader, can't recall the model, which would actually give a full wash cycle even if filled with 60C water. It was for the North American market, so maybe that's why. Loved it. Good example of how to use logic properly.

AEG and lifespan - I had a student in grad. school in Munich who worked for B/S/H in Gingen an der Fils. He shared my passion for vintage machinery. Mentioned to me once that the AEGs were being built to 'time-out' after a certain number of service hours....

Wouldn't surprise me.