wendy
Active member
There's a piece of sheet metal lying directly on the coils of the freezer compartment of my GE PDS18SBMALBS. Is that right? I can't tell from the parts diagram.
Sheet metal in bottom-freezer refrigerator
- Thread starter wendy
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Hi Wendy, there is an aluminum sheet laying directly on the evaporator of your refrigerator, that’s the way it was built and needs to stay
The aluminum helps trap the heat from the heater in the middle of the evaporator that defrosts it. It also protects the Styrofoam insulation above the aluminum sheet from the intense heat of the red hot heating element.
This aluminum sheet is very important not only makes the evaporator defrost properly, but also protects the plastic parts above the evaporator from severe damage from heat or possible fire.
John L
The aluminum helps trap the heat from the heater in the middle of the evaporator that defrosts it. It also protects the Styrofoam insulation above the aluminum sheet from the intense heat of the red hot heating element.
This aluminum sheet is very important not only makes the evaporator defrost properly, but also protects the plastic parts above the evaporator from severe damage from heat or possible fire.
John L
wendy
Active member
Thanks a lot for confirming that; makes sense. I'm out of things to try to keep the crisper drawers from running too cold--things at the bottom of both drawers start to freeze, although higher up in the drawers is OK. I suppose something is wrong with the airflow, but I'll be damned if I can figure out what it is.
Hi Wendy, can you post a picture of the insulation you’ve added above the plastic floor of the refrigerator?
I’ve had many customers with the problem of freezing stuff in the crisper drawers at the bottom and we’ve always been able to solve it by adding adequate insulation sheet, there’s just no way things are still gonna freeze if you insulate it properly
John L
I’ve had many customers with the problem of freezing stuff in the crisper drawers at the bottom and we’ve always been able to solve it by adding adequate insulation sheet, there’s just no way things are still gonna freeze if you insulate it properly
John L
wendy
Active member
Hi, What's the R value of that insulation sheet, my guess is that you may need 2 or 3 layers of that insulation sheet.
We have usually used a flexible closed cell foam at least 1/2" thick
John L.
We have usually used a flexible closed cell foam at least 1/2" thick
John L.
wendy
Active member
I don't remember the R value, but it can't be very high because it's quite thin. In fact, I actually do have three layers folded. By flexible closed cell foam I take it you mean something like pipe wrap but flat. I could try that.
I notice cold air escaping from the sides and back of the Styrofoam under the FF floor. Should I block all that in as best I can with strips of Styrofoam or the closed cell foam? And I wonder if as a last resort I could raise the drawers one notch by raising the shelf they hang off of. A small waste of space, but if it lets the drawers be in use again....
Thanks for your ideas and expertise.
I notice cold air escaping from the sides and back of the Styrofoam under the FF floor. Should I block all that in as best I can with strips of Styrofoam or the closed cell foam? And I wonder if as a last resort I could raise the drawers one notch by raising the shelf they hang off of. A small waste of space, but if it lets the drawers be in use again....
Thanks for your ideas and expertise.
wendy
Active member
Could you possibly point me to the kind of insulation you're recommending at, say, Lowe's or Home Depot or Ace Hardware, all of which would be easiest for me to pick something up quickly? Thanks again, in advance this time.
wendy
Active member
How about this for insulation, a flexible sheet: https://www.ebay.com/itm/386724835005 ?
Should I run it slightly up the sides and rear as well as under the crisper drawers?
And what about the spaces to the side and rear of the Styrofoam at the top of the freezer compartment? Are they part of the airflow system and should be left open, or do I fill them too?
Should I run it slightly up the sides and rear as well as under the crisper drawers?
And what about the spaces to the side and rear of the Styrofoam at the top of the freezer compartment? Are they part of the airflow system and should be left open, or do I fill them too?
wendy
Active member
I really don't get it. At this point I don't think improving the insulation under the drawers will help, even that flexible sheet I see on eBay, which I think is like pipe insulation and would probably b be better than what I'm using now, but still....
When the compressor is working, I feel cold air coming up into the FF compartment, most notably from the rear of the floor, especially in the center, right over the fan. I believe there's an opening above the fan that must be the channel that brings the air to the top of the FF area. I don't recall any special insulation around that area, although at this point I've been in and out of there so often I can't say. Air does get to the top of the FF area for distribution there, so I don't think there's a blockage. Or could it be partly blocked? Although I don't know how something could have gotten in there to block it. Could there be something wrong with the temperature controls?
Should I put insulation around the area above the fan, just outside the opening into the channel, beyond the Styrofoam sheet that covers almost everything? And what of the sides, where there's a gap of 1/2" or so between the Styrofoam and the freezer wall? Is that OK or should I stuff something in those areas? What about the front and back edges of the Styrofoam? Should they be taped down, perhaps? I don't know how isolated I should be trying to make the whole area.
I'm flailing here, because I just can't figure this out.
Any ideas?
wendy
Active member
My latest thinking. Can anyone help? Here are photos:
1. Here's the floor of the FF compartment. In the rear, where the floor is convex covering the fan, a fair amount of cold air comes out when the compressor is running. Normal?
2. Here the floor is removed and we see the Styrofoam covering of the guts of the unit, taped together in places but pretty much in one piece.
3. Here's a closer shot of the convex part of the Styrofoam, above the fan.
4. Here's the right side. The Styrofoam is properly seated but there's a gap along both sides--perhaps a little more on the right. Some air comes out of the side when the floor is in place, although that could be working its way from the area around the fan.
5. Here it is with the Styrofoam covering removed, sheet metal on top of the coils.
6. Here it is with the sheet metal removed.
7. Close-up of the fan area. Air does go in behind the fan and up into the FF compartment. Is all the air supposed to go up the chase? Could the chase be partly blocked? If there's a damper that might be faulty, could that cause some air to stay down and push out where it doesn't belong? Could it be that the fan is weaker than it ought to be and isn't pushing enough even though the unit is cooling properly? Is one of these possibilities going to turn out to be the solution after all?
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wendy
Active member
Will you please look at the photos I just posted, with my further thinking as I search for an explanation of what's wrong with this refrigerator? I think this is something that falls into your area of great experience and wisdom.
Hi Wendy, thanks for posting all the great photos.
It certainly would not hurt to put some sort of rope tight caulking in that gap right above the fan in the floor of the refrigerator if cold air seems to be coming out of that crack that should not be the case.
I would probably use some sort of flexible, caulking, like people put around windows and things that can be pulled out in case you ever have to service the fan, etc.
Sorry, I’m so busy and have not had time to get a picture of the closed cell insulation. We usually use, but I would try to get closed cell foam insulation at least a half inch thick. You can even tape it to the walls of the refrigerator if you like at the rear and both sides that will definitely do the trick. I’ve never not been able to solve this problem for a customer.
It is a common problem though with this refrigerator.
I think you should be able to solve this problem and your refrigerator was a pretty decent one, but everything comes to an end. Whirlpool still builds a great 30 inch wide bottom freezer refrigerator here in this country. Just sold one today for a customer, just be sure to get the US built one not the Mexican one if you decide to buy a new one.
John L
It certainly would not hurt to put some sort of rope tight caulking in that gap right above the fan in the floor of the refrigerator if cold air seems to be coming out of that crack that should not be the case.
I would probably use some sort of flexible, caulking, like people put around windows and things that can be pulled out in case you ever have to service the fan, etc.
Sorry, I’m so busy and have not had time to get a picture of the closed cell insulation. We usually use, but I would try to get closed cell foam insulation at least a half inch thick. You can even tape it to the walls of the refrigerator if you like at the rear and both sides that will definitely do the trick. I’ve never not been able to solve this problem for a customer.
It is a common problem though with this refrigerator.
I think you should be able to solve this problem and your refrigerator was a pretty decent one, but everything comes to an end. Whirlpool still builds a great 30 inch wide bottom freezer refrigerator here in this country. Just sold one today for a customer, just be sure to get the US built one not the Mexican one if you decide to buy a new one.
John L
wendy
Active member
I take it you don't think it likely that the fan is weak--it does a good job of pushing air, I guess. Actually, the FF seems to be getting too cold even with the setting down to 2. I wonder if the temperature settings could be faulty.
I wonder also if that gap over the fan is normal, or if no air should be coming out there. I'll follow your advice and caulk the gap. I could also stuff something under the floor, I suppose, but maybe caulking all four sides of the floor would be easier than trying to get something underneath and keep it from interfering with the fan.
The closed cell insulation I found on eBay looks like pipe insulation but in a sheet. I think much more than 1/2" thickness would interfere with the drawers, but I will try rolling it up the sides and back and taping it to the walls.
Again, great thanks to you. And thanks for the advice about new bottom freezer refrigerators; I hope I don't have to use it for a long time.
wendy
Active member
Well, if I can test your patience again, my struggle continues!
I rope-caulked three edges of the FF floor (not the front) and put the insulation back where I had it. I no longer feel cold air coming up from those edges, and maybe the crispers aren't quite as cold now, but I think it's still a problem. They're down in the low 30s because somehow the bottom of the FF compartment is getting too much cold air from below.
Before I try to buy a roll of closed cell insulation in the hope that it'll do a better job than what I've been using: You say you have "never not been able to solve this problem" with a layer of foam insulation and it's a common problem with this refrigerator. Did you ever learn what causes the problem in the first place?
In my case, it only started after I went inside to clear the ice after a clogged drain shut everything down, so I can't help thinking something went wrong at that time.
Does anything look out of place in the photos above? Any place I should be trying to insulate? What about the gaps at the sides of the Styrofoam (Photo #4)? Anything I should check to figure out why the bottom of the FF compartment is so cold?
Or do I take the next step and hope 1/2" of closed cell insulation on the FF floor does the trick even if I don't know why it should be necessary?
wendy
Active member
So a sheet of 3/4" closed cell insulation is on its way; I should be receiving it in a few days. I'm not optimistic, since nothing was gained from rope caulk on three sides. I can't understand why if too much cold air is escaping, and you say it's common, just why that happens. And why it suddenly started to happen after I went inside to clear a clogged drain. Can't help thinking I did something wrong, but I can't guess what.
wendy
Active member
Pictures 5,6, and 7 show a recess in the back wall, directly behind the fan. Is air supposed to go into it and then up to the top of the FF section? Some air must be doing that, because the FF temperatures are OK. Yet a lot of air is escaping. I feel plenty of it when I put the Styrofoam back in place, before replacing the plastic FF floor. Could there be a blockage along the way? A damper that's partly closed? A fault in the temperature settings? Why is all that air aiming at the roof of the freezer compartment?
Hi Wendy, I don’t think the problem is necessarily air leaks as much as the fact that the crisper drawers are installed above the evaporator compartment on this refrigerator, when you consider the air temperature in the evaporator compartment can be 20 below zero I think it’s more of proximity thing most bottom freezer refrigerators were not built this way and you’re finding out why I think.
If you could still get that foam cover for the evaporator that would probably go a long way to solving this problem. I think the foam loses some of its insulating ability over time.
Subzero had a big problem with this on their built-in bottom freezer models for years their solution was to install a metal panel under the crisper drawers that had an electric heater on the bottom of it and wire it in, in the case of the subzero, there was no air leaks whatsoever because both compartments on the subzero are completely separate. There’s no air interchanging between the two compartments, but again, I think it was just the proximity of being directly above the freezer that caused the problem in the subzero.
John L
If you could still get that foam cover for the evaporator that would probably go a long way to solving this problem. I think the foam loses some of its insulating ability over time.
Subzero had a big problem with this on their built-in bottom freezer models for years their solution was to install a metal panel under the crisper drawers that had an electric heater on the bottom of it and wire it in, in the case of the subzero, there was no air leaks whatsoever because both compartments on the subzero are completely separate. There’s no air interchanging between the two compartments, but again, I think it was just the proximity of being directly above the freezer that caused the problem in the subzero.
John L
wendy
Active member
Thanks a lot for this good explanation. Since caulking hasn't helped, it does make sense that too much zero-degree air hitting the roof of the freezer is really the problem, as you say. Yet while I accept that the foam cover could lose insulating quality with time--gradually--there was no problem before I removed and replaced it, and then boom!
Could I have done something to cause frozen air to suddenly start escaping to where it shouldn't be? I replaced the sheet metal over the coils and the foam cover over the whole thing, just where it fits. I even jammed some insulation over the convex part, by the back wall, before I replaced the foam. So the air doesn't seem to be escaping much at the back or sides. It's just flowing up somehow to where it shouldn't be.
What about the holes that stretch across the front of the FF floor? What's their function?
wendy
Active member
OK, I installed a sheet of 3/4" closed cell foam insulation under the crispers, as you suggested, enough to run up the sides an inch or two. I haven't taped it to the sides and front, because I wanted to see if just having it there untaped would bring the temperature up a little. It didn't.
I've put the refrigerator temperature setting at 1 (!) and the crisper bottoms still come in at 30F.
I can't believe it would help much to tape the insulation, would it? Doesn't it seem more like there's something wrong with the refrigerator temperature control and/or freezer air that's escaping in the wrong place?
So can you tell me, please, where the FF area is supposed to get its cold air from? Just from the top, where the controls are, or should cold air also be coming up from the FF floor, either from the side floor-wall joints (which I've rope-caulked) or through the vent holes all along the front of the FF floor?
Beyond this, if you have nothing more to offer, I think I'm ready to throw in the towel at last and send it to the refrigerator graveyard. We both tried.
Produce freezing problem on a Canadian built 20-year-old GE bottom freezer refrigerator.
Sorry you’re having so much trouble. Solving this problem, I would cut the foam insulation to fit as close to the sides and back of the floor of the refrigerator as possible, do not block the vent at all at the front that’s important , that's where the air from the FF section returns to the evaporator to get cooled. If you want to tape the insulation sheet to the sides and back wall, you can try that.
All the cold air that cools the refrigerator section comes up a duct behind the liner of the refrigerator up through the little vent in the control panel. The numbered dial controls the operation of the compressor fan and cooling system. There’s no correct or incorrect number if it works fine number one or even a little less that’s fine. The other dial controls the amount of cold air that the fan releases into the refrigerator section. it’s labeled the freezer control. If you put it on a colder freezer setting it’ll send less cold air to the refrigerator section.
It seems hard to believe that what you’ve done wouldn’t reduce the freezing a little bit, you said you got a reading at 30°F which would technically freeze things but is it actually still freezing things if you’re readings off just a couple degrees it may be better now it’s hard to believe that it wouldn’t work better. I’ve had about a dozen customers over the years with this problem where the foam insulation pretty much solved it.
Hopefully you can get this to work for you, I can think of three or four customers you’ve have thrown in the towel with this refrigerator over the past half dozen years, but I do think it wouldn’t be unrealistic to try to get about 30 years out of it.
John L
Sorry you’re having so much trouble. Solving this problem, I would cut the foam insulation to fit as close to the sides and back of the floor of the refrigerator as possible, do not block the vent at all at the front that’s important , that's where the air from the FF section returns to the evaporator to get cooled. If you want to tape the insulation sheet to the sides and back wall, you can try that.
All the cold air that cools the refrigerator section comes up a duct behind the liner of the refrigerator up through the little vent in the control panel. The numbered dial controls the operation of the compressor fan and cooling system. There’s no correct or incorrect number if it works fine number one or even a little less that’s fine. The other dial controls the amount of cold air that the fan releases into the refrigerator section. it’s labeled the freezer control. If you put it on a colder freezer setting it’ll send less cold air to the refrigerator section.
It seems hard to believe that what you’ve done wouldn’t reduce the freezing a little bit, you said you got a reading at 30°F which would technically freeze things but is it actually still freezing things if you’re readings off just a couple degrees it may be better now it’s hard to believe that it wouldn’t work better. I’ve had about a dozen customers over the years with this problem where the foam insulation pretty much solved it.
Hopefully you can get this to work for you, I can think of three or four customers you’ve have thrown in the towel with this refrigerator over the past half dozen years, but I do think it wouldn’t be unrealistic to try to get about 30 years out of it.
John L
wendy
Active member
Well, here's something I hadn't known: You're saying the colder the freezer setting the less cold air will go to the refrigerator section? So if I crank the freezer setting all the way to 9 and drop the refrigerator setting to 1 that should stop the crispers from running so cold? Bearing in mind that I've positioned the foam properly along the back and both sides but haven't yet taped it in place, I'll try those settings and see what happens.
wendy
Active member
Have I misunderstood you?
I have the freezer temp set at 9 and the refrigerator at 1, and now the crisper is at 28F (thermometer sitting on the bottom of the drawer; it's a little higher if I set it on top of something in the drawer). The upper FF shelves are reading about 42, the lower shelves more like 40 or below. I'd say the thermometer in the crisper is sensing cold air coming up through the foam even more than before, it seems. Certainly no improvement there.
Should I lower the refrigerator setting even more, below 1, toward Off? Won't that cause the FF temps to move up too far into the 40s?
But wait. If the problem is cold air from the freezer leaking up into the FF area, even through insulation, why would giving the freezer a colder setting reduce that leakage? Wouldn't it create MORE cold air in the freezer, thus allowing more to leak upwards where it doesn't belong? Or will more cold coming up through the floor join the air traveling through the duct and entering at the top to help keep the FF to around 40 even if the FF setting is below 1?
Maybe I should tape the sides of the insulation as a last effort.
You need a computer program to figure out the moving parts of this.
