1979 Hotpoint 1509/10 overhaul

[sesteve]

Hi Rob

At what level was the water when it started leaking? If you fill the machine up gradually then it would point to which seal could be letting by. I've done a crappy drawing to show the 4 levels to check.

1. Looking at where it is leaking which appears to be the inside of the counterface I would say that the counterface mount and counterface should be ok - to prove you could fill up just so the bellows seal is covered. If it starts leaking then it is either of those or the joint between the face seal and the counterface. I'm not sure if there is a right and wrong way round to mount the face seal but it looks right from your pictures. It could be that the face seal is not sitting flat between the bowl support and the counterface either because the seal is distorted or the debor glue has not held it on level.

2. If that's ok and it doesn't leak, fill it up to the top of the bowl support just below the top of the bowl clamp. If it starts leaking here then it could be the o-ring in the bowl support.

3. If that's fine then fill further to below the top of the top seal

4. If that is ok fill to above the drive nut. If it leaks here then it could be the seal between the drive nut couterface and the top seal. Have you fitted the water slinger and o rings at the top of the shaft as shown in the drawings? These are not always included in the seal kits.

Hopefully that will at least identify which point is weak.
S

 

[sesteve]

Hi Rob

At what level was the water when it started leaking. If you fill the machine up gradually then it would point to which seal could be letting by. I've done a crappy drawing to show the 4 levels to check.

1. Looking at where it is leaking which appears to be the inside of the counterface I would say that the counterface mount and counterface should be ok - to prove you could fill up just so the bellows seal is covered. If it starts leaking then it is either of those or the joint between the face seal and the counterface. I'm not sure if there is a right and wrong way round to mount the face seal but it looks right from your pictures. It could be that the face seal is not sitting flat between the bowl support and the counterface either because the seal is distorted or the debor glue has not held in on level.

2. If that's ok and it doesn't leak, fill it up to the top of the bowl support just below the top of the bowl clamp. If it starts leaking here then it could be the o-ring in the bowl support.

3. If that's fine then fill further to below the top of the top seal

4. If that is ok fill to above the drive nut. If it leaks here then it could be the seal between the drive nut couterface and the top seal. Have you fitted the water slinger and o rings at the top of the shaft as shown in the drawings? These are not always included in the seal kits.

Hopefully that will at least identify which point is weak.
S

 

[triumphtoledo]

leak

Blimey Steve, thanks for your input and diagram.

Basically, the machine leaks when it hits your level 2. If then allowed to drain back to your level 1, it still leaks.

I have sealed the O Ring in the support with silicon and Debor in the past and it seems to make no difference. Perhaps I should get a new face seal and try that??

R

 

[sesteve]

I know how frustrating these things can be so happy to try and help. So it is either the o-ring, the face seal where it meets the bowl support or the face seal where it meets the counterface. Hmmm! What was the face seal like from the donor machine? is it worth trying that to see if that solves it? If so then you could get a new one. If not then the o ring could be changed. Is the bowl support a nice tight fit on the shaft? It might be better not to put the debor or sealant on this. Just checking that you raised the gearbox before you tightened the bowl support - don't want to accuse you of sucking eggs but that will help push the seals tightly together?

I'm not sure if it is worth putting the machine on to see if a bit of action allows things to bed in. I'm sure when I did my first seal on one of these I had similar issues but once it had done a cycle it seemed to solve itself and has been fine since.

S

 

[triumphtoledo]

re

Thanks again Steve,

You are not teaching me to suck eggs, just verifying that I have done everything properly.

The face seal from the old machine (and the one that came out of this one) was pretty knackered, really. The carbon seal itself had ground down level to the rubber backing.

The bowl support was fairly rotten, although not completely past it. I could fit it to this machine and see if it works.

The gearbox was raised, before fitting the bowl support (using an old plastic oil can!) Otherwise, the rectangular clamp section would not have located in its recess.

Regarding using the machine, while it is like this, it is an option, although the water coming out is a regular drip and so I am unsure if it would resolve itself – but if that’s the only way, maybe I should try it…

R

 

[triumphtoledo]

I may have found the cause...

On Steve's suggestion, I have refitted the spares machine's carbon seal to the new bowl support (not glued in, just plonked on) and the leak has virtually stopped. Before, it would take around 10 minutes for the drips to appear, there have been less than ten drips in 5 hours.

So, it appears that a brand-new part was to blame.

A new, new bottom seal has been ordered but I shall leave the machine with water in it overnight and see how things are in the morning.

Meanwhile, I have assembled the console - pics below

R

 

[triumphdolomite]

Rob
I'm glad it looks like you might have solved the problem, its looking smart now. Hopefully you should have it fixed before long.

Steve
Yes I bought it on staff purchase when Alstom still had an agreement with Hotpoint/Creda from the old English Electric days, we didn't get much knocked off though, 10 or 15% I think it was. I used to wonder how much scale was lurking in the bottom as there was usually a helping of very gritty fluff in the filter tray. It did work quite hard and Heavy Soil was nearly always selected to get the proper temperatures. I'd not noticed if it was oiling the load, once the spin efficiency started to drop as it was in the middle of winter I took it out of service. I think one of the problems with the 9600 I decided to keep is that it passes oil over into the wash.
I must admit to having washed some odd things in it in the past. A set of Dolomite carpets comes to mind, prog 7 gentle action I think it was......

Ian

 

[supermaticjames]

Glad to see you are still keeping at it. You will get there in the end! I sure you know this already but it it very important that the machine is put on spin for at least two minutes so that the two carbon faces bed together. It is also important for the gyrator to be fitted prior to any water tests so that the top carbon face under the tripod is given a chance to bed together before the water fills the void within the gyrator. alternatively you can do what I did and trick the machine into thinking it is filled with water and allow it to agitate a while.

Keep up the good work!

James

 

[triumphtoledo]

This morning's result

Well, I checked the machine this morning, after leaving the water level half-way up the top-hat seal overnight (see pic) and the support tube was totally dry, as was the gearbox top.

I took the support bowl off and the counterface's inner area was dry too (see pic), proving that the old seal is doing its job, despite being rather worn.

James, thanks for the tip about putting the machine on spin, before filling the tub. Although there is no reference in my workshop manual on this, I did put the machine on several spin cycles with the new seal in place, to allow the surfaces to bed-in, and it still leaked.

I even rubbed the carbon face evenly with 180 grit wet-and-dry, in case it was distorted but it made no difference. I cannot see anything physically wrong with the new seal but, as the old seal is doing the job, I cannot see where else the blame lies.

A new seal has been ordered and I shall report back on its effectiveness...

R

 

[sesteve]

Well done Rob

At least you know what it is so hopefully a new seal will solve it permanently. Console looks great too. What are the machines behind the 1509? I don't recognise the valve configuration of the one on the right.

Ian - dolomite carpets sounds like a challenge for the toploader! Did it do the trick? I tried washing feather pillows once over - never again!!

S

 

[triumphtoledo]

Other machines

Cheers Steve,
The other machines are, on the left, a Bosch V696 washer dryer (used earlier this year, when our separate dryer stopped working and was a lifesaver with a messy toddler in the house), the other one is a Hoover Logic A3586 (a timeline 1200), I think, which has been completely reconditioned.

R

 

[matchboxpaul]

Hi Rob.

Always nice to see a restoration job come back together. Must be one of the most thorough overhaul jobs conducted on one of these for many a year.

Keep on posting the updates!
Regards
Paul

 

[triumphdolomite]

Carpet

Steve
It managed the carpets ok, front foot mats, sill carpets and gearbox tunnel piece. I did take the horsehair backing off beforehand though Just needed to be rearranged before spin to get the balance right.
Please don't try this Rob after all your hard work!!!
Ian

 

[triumphtoledo]

getting closer...

After suffering multiple nightmares and waking up in cold sweats after dreaming about leaky Hotpoints, I was whisked away by the family for a week’s worth of therapy.

On returning from holiday, yet another new bottom carbon seal was waiting on the doormat, which was fitted, the machine reassembled (again) and set on a spin, before the bowl being filled with water.

While not entirely leak-free (but with the number of drips being in single figures after an hour of standing full of water), it was a massive improvement over the previous Qualtex seal.

So, I decided to reunite the body with the chassis, not before breaking the interlock switch, whoops! Thankfully, the spares machine yielded another one (thanks again Ian!).

The later machine’s top seal was also a tight fit between the outer bowl and lid console, which will be more effective in stopping my utility room filling up with steam, when running a hot wash.

The spares machine also yielded its galvanised cover that sits above the rear air-break vent, at the top of the outer bowl, as the original had gone very rusty.

I had a sheet of self-adhesive car soundproofing spare, which was stuck to the inside of the cabinet before it was screwed to the chassis. The machine has now been connected up and the small leak seems to have stopped, after running three full washes.

When full of clothes, the spin was really lack-lustre, so the spares machine donated its clutch shoes that were a little worn and so I screwed several nuts to each end of the friction linings, to weigh them down a bit. The spin appears to be much better, although the next few washes will determine how effective the ‘repair’ has been.

I shall run a few more washes over the ensuing few days (when the family has generated more dirty laundry) and will report back, hopefully, with no bad news and some final reveal pictures…

R

 

[matchboxpaul]

Cannot wait for the grand unveil.

Wonderful machines the 1509's, with the /10 being the pinnacle and great that you were able to save one.

Paul

 

[triumphdolomite]

Rob
Glad that you've managed to stop the dripping and it seems to be performing better. The clutch shoes shouldn't be too worn as I changed them two or three years before I took it out of service.
Ian

 

[sesteve]

Hi Rob

Glad its all back together and look forward to seeing the final result. The position of those microswitches makes them very vulnerable to breaking - I broke my one so stole one off the 9605 - must remember to sort that out! I'm guessing the seal has bedded in which has stopped the leaks. I ran my 1504 this weekend after overhauling it and no leaks at all with a 42 year old seal so I was really surprised.

Have you stuck the soundproofing material to all of the inside of the cabinet. I was considering sticking felt underlay to the outer tub of one of my machines to improve its energy use and speed up the heating process for hot washes so will be interesting to see if you notice a difference.

So I'm guessing you will be allowed to keep this in the house now if its going in your utility room! With all the hard work you've put into it it deserves to be pride of place.

Cheers
S

 

[triumphtoledo]

re

Thanks guys for your kind words.

Ian.
That explains why the shoes didn't look that worn. The machine ramps up to full spin very quickly now and the spin performance is better than our 1100rpm Bosch. The cycles are very quick but I am not convinced, yet, that its cleaning performance is superior. However, I managed to fit in a bed mattress cover that I would otherwise have had to send to the laundrette, so result on that score! Your donor machine continues to be useful in supplying smaler pieces that are in better condition.

Steve.
I haven't forgotten that I have some friction material & a damper. I am glad for you that your 1504 is not being as much of a headache as mine. I stuck soundproofing on the inside of the cabinet to reduce any noisy drumming, while on spin. I'm unsure how much sticking insulation to the outer tub would make much of a difference to its energy efficiency, unless it is a metal tub.

Anyway, my machine is now in to the utility room and doesn't appear to be leaking and so I hope that the job is now down.

I'll take and get some pics up tomorrow

R

 

[triumphtoledo]

The Reveal...

Well, here it is.

I shall let the pictures do the talking but I am very grateful to all supporters of the project, without whom the machine would have ended up in Kidderminster's recycling dump, especially Ian, Steve and James. Thanks guys!

I ‘ll report back on how I find the machine’s performance - the extra stickers are there mainly for the wife, so she doesn't boil my smalls dry!

R

 

[triumphtoledo]

update after beng a daily driver

Well, the machine is up and running and has been in constant use for the last three weeks.

First impressions are both good and bad. It’s quick, rinses very well and the spin is not bad either.

Obviously, it’s a water hog and requires more detergent than our front-loading Bosch (but much quicker). It’s noisy on wash but not on spin. Some of my dark cottons have come out more ‘bobbled’ than with the front loads and sheets some out very creased (but well spun!)

Washing very dirty clothes and rags requires loads of water anyway, which is where the machine comes into its own.

Unfortunately, the dreaded leak has returned but appears to be intermittent. Drat! It seems to be getting worse but I’m keeping a close eye on it. There’s a small puddle beneath the machine after each wash so it’s not tragic but still irritating.

I think the bottom thermostat bung may be leaking slightly too but only a few drops each wash. At least they are inexpensive and available.

The other things to cement its money pit repute is the flyback thermostat fell apart last week. Turning the knob from 0 to the first notch got harder and harder; on removing the part, the relay disintegrated. Relays are available but the complete thermostat flyback was only £10 more, so I fitted that, all for £27 all in. Being a late 1509/10, no modifications were needed, according to the instructions enclosed with the part.

Later on, I’ll scan and upload the instructions, which may be of use for anyone else.

R