3beltwesty
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2010
- Messages
- 1,057
USA is already 220 Volts; few folks have 3 phase at the pole
Re : "Converting the United States to 220v power is not going to happen anytime soon. "
Most houses built after 1947 have the nominal 230 to 240 volts already. It is used for the larger loads, kitchen range, dryers, big AC units. A normal person in the USA has no use for a 230 volt socket in one's bedrooms, bathrooms, family rooms. All ones stuff one buys is for 115/120 volts; this goes back for over 100 years. Thus things like vacuum cleaners, TV's, radios, lights are all made here for 115 volts. The number of houses that still have just a 110 volt service is in the parts per million level; about unheard of. There are more folks driving 6 volt cars and Chevy Vegas than those who have just 120 volt service.
Even if I added 230 volt plugs in each of my houses rooms; what would I use them for? I could buy bulbs, vacuum cleaners, TV's from Europe? When I visted England and saw their 4 watt alarm clock connected to 220 volt plugs as big as the one on my dryer; it seems absurd.
RE : "In most areas--the three phase primary MV feeders are ALREADY there-so three phase feeds to each building or home is not that much of a problem."
Actually it is a massive problem.
In the places I have lived like in the midwest, deep south and and far west this is NOT true. I am registered professional EE.
The main feeder that comes out of a substation has all 3 phases, and in many neighborhoods they just run a single HV line down each side street. Thus you comment is true if you are on the main drag street and not true on the bulk of the side streets.
In the neighborhood I live in, the ONLY places houses have all 3 lines out front is the path to the old well at the end of the neighborhood. My road has 2 hot lines since it has a lift station 300 feet away run by a dinky 3HP 3 phase motor. About 10 percent of the houses are along the path with all 3 phases and another say 15 percent have 2 hots. The bulk 75 percent just have 1 hot phase. This is a place built up from 1968 to today. The line voltage is actually quite high 13.2 KV line to Neutral and 19.2 Kv line to line. Because of Hurricances and major rebuilds, the line voltage here is often more modern than more stable areas. In California the places I lived had 7200 Line to neutral in Y and another place had 4800 Volts in Delta.
This setup is what they did in California and Indiana too; they only run what is required. It is more common where houses are farther apart. If I take the many 8 houses I have lived in ; only 2 had 3 phase at the pole; the rest where spurs off the 3 phase feeder. In the house I rented in college, the nearest pole with 3 hots was 2 miles away to the main road. With a house in Michigan it was about 1/4 mile away.
In country areas a main road often has the 3 full hot high voltage phases; and they peel off one hot that might feed houses over several miles. When the number of houses grows they add the 2nd hot high voltage phase, and just move some of the transformers to the 2nd phase.
With a house in California there was 3 phase on the pole, but I lived only 1/2 mile from the substation on a road 4 lanes wide. With my buddys place out in the country, the single hot phase runs about 1 mile. Here where I live today there are 2 hot phases on the pole since a dinky lift station is close.
*****To put 3 real hot lines on each customers pole would require DOUBLING the current copper lines already in existance is what IEEE Spectrum mentioned awhile back.*****
This differs with you comment that "the three phase primary MV feeders are ALREADY there-"
Then one would have to add 2 to 3 times the number of transformers. Then would have to restring the millions of houses and add 3 phase power boxes. Then one would have to swap put and scrap a million meters.
This would cost many thousands per house and would double or triple ones electric bill. IEEE Spectrum went into this a decade or two ago, there is no return for such a project.
The average US house does NOT have a 3 phase set of high voltage lines on the pole. If you are on the main route or feeder you do. The bulk of houses have just one hot line; this is truer when houses are FAR apart; and less true when they are close together.
Where I lived in the Detroit area; they ran a 3 phase line up one North South road in the 1960's subdivision; and each each west +/- road that was 1/2 mile long ran off a phase. Thus streets a and d and on phase A, streets b and e ran off phase B, streets c and f ran off phase C. With a power outage with phase A, every 3 street was dark.
Re : "Converting the United States to 220v power is not going to happen anytime soon. "
Most houses built after 1947 have the nominal 230 to 240 volts already. It is used for the larger loads, kitchen range, dryers, big AC units. A normal person in the USA has no use for a 230 volt socket in one's bedrooms, bathrooms, family rooms. All ones stuff one buys is for 115/120 volts; this goes back for over 100 years. Thus things like vacuum cleaners, TV's, radios, lights are all made here for 115 volts. The number of houses that still have just a 110 volt service is in the parts per million level; about unheard of. There are more folks driving 6 volt cars and Chevy Vegas than those who have just 120 volt service.
Even if I added 230 volt plugs in each of my houses rooms; what would I use them for? I could buy bulbs, vacuum cleaners, TV's from Europe? When I visted England and saw their 4 watt alarm clock connected to 220 volt plugs as big as the one on my dryer; it seems absurd.
RE : "In most areas--the three phase primary MV feeders are ALREADY there-so three phase feeds to each building or home is not that much of a problem."
Actually it is a massive problem.
In the places I have lived like in the midwest, deep south and and far west this is NOT true. I am registered professional EE.
The main feeder that comes out of a substation has all 3 phases, and in many neighborhoods they just run a single HV line down each side street. Thus you comment is true if you are on the main drag street and not true on the bulk of the side streets.
In the neighborhood I live in, the ONLY places houses have all 3 lines out front is the path to the old well at the end of the neighborhood. My road has 2 hot lines since it has a lift station 300 feet away run by a dinky 3HP 3 phase motor. About 10 percent of the houses are along the path with all 3 phases and another say 15 percent have 2 hots. The bulk 75 percent just have 1 hot phase. This is a place built up from 1968 to today. The line voltage is actually quite high 13.2 KV line to Neutral and 19.2 Kv line to line. Because of Hurricances and major rebuilds, the line voltage here is often more modern than more stable areas. In California the places I lived had 7200 Line to neutral in Y and another place had 4800 Volts in Delta.
This setup is what they did in California and Indiana too; they only run what is required. It is more common where houses are farther apart. If I take the many 8 houses I have lived in ; only 2 had 3 phase at the pole; the rest where spurs off the 3 phase feeder. In the house I rented in college, the nearest pole with 3 hots was 2 miles away to the main road. With a house in Michigan it was about 1/4 mile away.
In country areas a main road often has the 3 full hot high voltage phases; and they peel off one hot that might feed houses over several miles. When the number of houses grows they add the 2nd hot high voltage phase, and just move some of the transformers to the 2nd phase.
With a house in California there was 3 phase on the pole, but I lived only 1/2 mile from the substation on a road 4 lanes wide. With my buddys place out in the country, the single hot phase runs about 1 mile. Here where I live today there are 2 hot phases on the pole since a dinky lift station is close.
*****To put 3 real hot lines on each customers pole would require DOUBLING the current copper lines already in existance is what IEEE Spectrum mentioned awhile back.*****
This differs with you comment that "the three phase primary MV feeders are ALREADY there-"
Then one would have to add 2 to 3 times the number of transformers. Then would have to restring the millions of houses and add 3 phase power boxes. Then one would have to swap put and scrap a million meters.
This would cost many thousands per house and would double or triple ones electric bill. IEEE Spectrum went into this a decade or two ago, there is no return for such a project.
The average US house does NOT have a 3 phase set of high voltage lines on the pole. If you are on the main route or feeder you do. The bulk of houses have just one hot line; this is truer when houses are FAR apart; and less true when they are close together.
Where I lived in the Detroit area; they ran a 3 phase line up one North South road in the 1960's subdivision; and each each west +/- road that was 1/2 mile long ran off a phase. Thus streets a and d and on phase A, streets b and e ran off phase B, streets c and f ran off phase C. With a power outage with phase A, every 3 street was dark.
