198? Miele W5510 415volt commercial front loader on ebay

[launderess]

Three Phase and Other Sagas In Regards To American Homes

United States started early with wiring towns, cities and other areas with electric power. At first the skirmish had to be settled between DC and AC, once that dust up was taken care of and wiring stretched across the landscape, there was a problem.. aside from lighting what sort of demand was there for the juice?

So GE, and countless other appliance makers began to turn out various appliances, gadgets, and much else that we take for granted today (such as the elevator, subways, street cars, etc) to run on electric power. Aside from some commercial applications, most American homes did not require large amounts of power (the average home perhaps had a few lights, maybe an electric fridge (though plenty still had ice boxes), a toaster, and perhaps a clothes iron), not much demand there. Nor was there any need, outside of commercial spheres for powerful motors that required three phase.

Heating of homes and or water is mostly done in the United States via petrol (natural gas, propane, or oil, but at times in history coal and wood as well), so again large amounts of power aren't needed.

All this meant that once the AC DC mess was settled, the question could have been 120v vs 220v, with the later being more efficient for delivering large loads, but again such loads weren't often required, so the former won.

In Europe WWII presented many countries with the chance to redesign their electrical generating and delivery systems as they were rebuilding from all the damage. The decision was made in most countries to go with 220v for various reasons.

Unlike the United States, there is a need for many European/UK homes to have large power draws. Heating (both of water and home), washing machines and later dishwashers that heat cold water, and all manner of appliances which require large amounts of juice.

My Pfaff ironer for instance pulls 3.05kW of power on 220v/50hz. In the United States normally one is only going to find an outlet supplying this as a "dryer" or "range" wiring, but IIRC most European/UK homes have this sort of thing all over the house. Have seen older ironers from Miele in German domestic use that run on 400w of power. Something you would never find in the United States.

Indeed one of the problems Miele USA had in sales was that so few American homes had 220v power. Many of those that did it was often used for the range or dryer, and if those outlets were being used or had to get to, it required rewiring (added cost). Then there were those who wanted a Miele washer, dishwasher, dryer, etc but didn't have 220v power anywhere in their homes, thus would have to pay to have it brought from the street. In the case of areas with large numbers of mullt-family dwellings, approval from the landlord, co-op or condo board for this work for that sort of work was not always given. In the end Miele finally gave up and now only sells 120v washers here, however dryers and some other kitchen appliances still require 220v.

Converting the United States to 220v power is not going to happen anytime soon. It could cost *billions* to upgrade,rewire and do all the necessary work to the electrical grid. Not to mention many homes/buildings aren't wired to take advantage, nor would many owners be willing to pay for it either.

Here in NYC there are lots of persons living in apartments with barely 60amp service. I mean literally one or two outlets in the main room. Lots of extension cords, power strips, adapters, and "multiple outlet" adapters are used as persons try to cope. With all the new technology from computers, printers, chargers, cordless phones, microwaves, televisions, DVRs, and so and and so forth, the area around many outlets is a tangle of wires.

 

[3beltwesty]

USA is already 220 Volts; few folks have 3 phase at the pole

Re : "Converting the United States to 220v power is not going to happen anytime soon. "

Most houses built after 1947 have the nominal 230 to 240 volts already. It is used for the larger loads, kitchen range, dryers, big AC units. A normal person in the USA has no use for a 230 volt socket in one's bedrooms, bathrooms, family rooms. All ones stuff one buys is for 115/120 volts; this goes back for over 100 years. Thus things like vacuum cleaners, TV's, radios, lights are all made here for 115 volts. The number of houses that still have just a 110 volt service is in the parts per million level; about unheard of. There are more folks driving 6 volt cars and Chevy Vegas than those who have just 120 volt service.

Even if I added 230 volt plugs in each of my houses rooms; what would I use them for? I could buy bulbs, vacuum cleaners, TV's from Europe? When I visted England and saw their 4 watt alarm clock connected to 220 volt plugs as big as the one on my dryer; it seems absurd.

RE : "In most areas--the three phase primary MV feeders are ALREADY there-so three phase feeds to each building or home is not that much of a problem."

Actually it is a massive problem.

In the places I have lived like in the midwest, deep south and and far west this is NOT true. I am registered professional EE.

The main feeder that comes out of a substation has all 3 phases, and in many neighborhoods they just run a single HV line down each side street. Thus you comment is true if you are on the main drag street and not true on the bulk of the side streets.

In the neighborhood I live in, the ONLY places houses have all 3 lines out front is the path to the old well at the end of the neighborhood. My road has 2 hot lines since it has a lift station 300 feet away run by a dinky 3HP 3 phase motor. About 10 percent of the houses are along the path with all 3 phases and another say 15 percent have 2 hots. The bulk 75 percent just have 1 hot phase. This is a place built up from 1968 to today. The line voltage is actually quite high 13.2 KV line to Neutral and 19.2 Kv line to line. Because of Hurricances and major rebuilds, the line voltage here is often more modern than more stable areas. In California the places I lived had 7200 Line to neutral in Y and another place had 4800 Volts in Delta.

This setup is what they did in California and Indiana too; they only run what is required. It is more common where houses are farther apart. If I take the many 8 houses I have lived in ; only 2 had 3 phase at the pole; the rest where spurs off the 3 phase feeder. In the house I rented in college, the nearest pole with 3 hots was 2 miles away to the main road. With a house in Michigan it was about 1/4 mile away.

In country areas a main road often has the 3 full hot high voltage phases; and they peel off one hot that might feed houses over several miles. When the number of houses grows they add the 2nd hot high voltage phase, and just move some of the transformers to the 2nd phase.

With a house in California there was 3 phase on the pole, but I lived only 1/2 mile from the substation on a road 4 lanes wide. With my buddys place out in the country, the single hot phase runs about 1 mile. Here where I live today there are 2 hot phases on the pole since a dinky lift station is close.

*****To put 3 real hot lines on each customers pole would require DOUBLING the current copper lines already in existance is what IEEE Spectrum mentioned awhile back.*****

This differs with you comment that "the three phase primary MV feeders are ALREADY there-"

Then one would have to add 2 to 3 times the number of transformers. Then would have to restring the millions of houses and add 3 phase power boxes. Then one would have to swap put and scrap a million meters.

This would cost many thousands per house and would double or triple ones electric bill. IEEE Spectrum went into this a decade or two ago, there is no return for such a project.

The average US house does NOT have a 3 phase set of high voltage lines on the pole. If you are on the main route or feeder you do. The bulk of houses have just one hot line; this is truer when houses are FAR apart; and less true when they are close together.

Where I lived in the Detroit area; they ran a 3 phase line up one North South road in the 1960's subdivision; and each each west +/- road that was 1/2 mile long ran off a phase. Thus streets a and d and on phase A, streets b and e ran off phase B, streets c and f ran off phase C. With a power outage with phase A, every 3 street was dark.

 

[3beltwesty]

To add 230 volts to a US houses rooms

Here in the USA to add 230 volts to a room in ones house is not such a massive task or maybe a very tough job too.

It really is one of the PITA task of running wires in an existing house. Most folks already have 230 volts at ones house at the service panel. We may or may not have enough space to add some double pole 230 volt breakers.

A larger task for me is crawling around in the attic, boring holes.

Folks due this for 230 volt ham radio Linear amps; for 230 volt welders; for adding a 230 volt AC unit; etc.

Retro fitting new plugs is easy when one has no walls, like post Katrina after a house flooding.

In a big AC window unit that is say above 15000 BTUH; they typically then are 230 volts.

 

[tolivac]

I had an extra 30A 240V line run in to my kitchen to run the Advantium oven.Wasn't a big deal-took the electrician all of only 10min.In some homes the 240V outlets are added to run yes,welders and large power tools.One persaon I know outhere-besides the one with the machine shop-has two 240V outlets in his garage-30A240V for his table saw,and another 60A one to run a planer with a 7hp motor.And if need be he can run both tools at once.And in the future we will probably see more 240V outlets in the garage to run electric car chargers.The power tool outlets could serve that duty-charge the car when the tool or welder isn't in use.And yes I knew of one ham radio operator that installed 240V outlet in his shack to run a linear power amp.Some of these can run from 120V or 240V.Its better to run it from 240V if you can.Come to think of it another ham radio man had like the woodworker-had two 240V outlets to run his two linear amps-Henry Radio 1Kw.And yes another non ham but broadcast radio fan that installed a 240V 30A outlet to run a 1Kw AM broadcast transmitter-these run neatly off 240V-30A.This man had an interesting collection of 1K AM transmitters he got for free or low cost from the stations he worked on.I worked on some of his rigs to get them working-and just to run into a dummy load-most 1Kw AM transmitters had a load built into the transmitter.You moved a J-plug to select RF out to the antenna or the internal load.

 

[launderess]

Operative Word Here Is "Own"

One's own home.

There is not a small number of persons living in the United States whom live in apartment,multi-family dwellings and or otherwise do not own their own property outright.Even when one does own the property (or shares in the case of a co-op), many condo boards and so forth have something to say about extensive electrical work.

Then there is the cost. Maybe elsewhere electricans are cheap, and while one agrees the job of running a "simple" 220v line and or installing outlets is not heavy work for a good electrical professional, that does not mean the cost is not dear. Here in NYC you can easily look at bills anywhere from 1K north to even 3K or more, depending on how much work has to be done.

If there even isn't 220v service in the building (common enough here), much less the apartment, you are talking about calling out the power company to run upgraded lines from the street to the buildng, and all the other work to bring the juice into the building, then run it up to the apartment.

Obviously not enough persons had 220v service, and or were willing to install it to purchase Miele washers in great numbers. That company simply gave up and after decades of towing the line *we don't/won't produce 110v washing machines* , now they are the only machines imported to the USA from that vendor.

 

[tolivac]

Yes-that is a factor-do you own the home and does it have a 240-120V feed.At one time I even ran a 240V line to replace one at a freinds house for his AC.Used the old cable as a pull tape for the new one-EASY.And our job passed inspection.
sounds like in NYC it is a big deal to add an extra 240V outlet for your place.And if if you did live in an apartment-I suppose most NYC folks do-the 240V outlet is out of the question entirely.So you are limited to 120V appliances only-unless the place came with 240V for the range.Or for apartments-208V(or a gas range) range.In the apartments I lived in they were fed with 208-120V 3 ph.The apartment HVAC ran from the 208V.The other loads in the home were 120V.The building where I work is fed with 4160V 3Ph-main building power to run lighting,HVAC,is 208-120V 3Ph 200KVA.Another LV supply is 300KVA 230V 3ph to run blowers,water pumps in some of our transmitters.That 415V washer I could run it at my workplace-would have to "borrow" the 3Ph 400-415V from one of the two Europian made transmitters we have here-Germany,Switzerland.500Kw SW AM.

 

[cornutt]

A lot of houses built in the Southeast U.S. between about 1950 and 1980 have 230V, 15 or 20A outlets in places in the house where window air conditioners would have been used.

 

[toggleswitch]

QUOTE: Converting the United States to 220v power is not going to happen anytime soon. It could cost *billions* to upgrade,rewire and do all the necessary work to the electrical grid. Not to mention many homes/buildings aren't wired to take advantage, nor would many owners be willing to pay for it either.

I took this to mean ridding us of 110v and having 220v hot to neutral.

QUOTE: Here in NYC there are lots of persons living in apartments with barely 60amp service. I mean literally one or two outlets in the main room.

The buidlng in which I reside was constructed in 1946. There is 110v 30a service to each aparment. Every 8 apartmens (as the main service) are served with 100a 110/220v service.

BTW 200a 110/220v residential serivce means that one can pull 200a per hot leg or 400a in total.

AFAIK NYC ORDINANCES (LAWS ON A LOCAL/CITY LEVEL) ONLY REQUIRE 40a 110/220V service in an aparment (where, heat, cooking and hot water for the taps are not electric). That is 80 amps total with 40 per to leag.

Laws were changed decades ago to require an oultet(powerpoint) every six liner feet. The intention was to have one outlet per wall (side of a room) in a "standard" 12 x 12 foot(bed)room.

The law was futher modified such that isolated walls -- areas broken up by doors or doorways of a certain sixe (20 feet or more?) msut also now have an outlet to avoid stringing extension cords across doorway thresholds.


When gauging main electrical service to residences, let us also not forget that an electrical load of the same wattage will require double the amperage on a 110v system as they do on a 220v system.

[this post was last edited: 12/25/2010-02:57]

 

[toggleswitch]

Why is 277v/480v used in commercial / industrial settings?

Is the intent to keep voltages as close to but under 500v?

One would think the logical choice to accompamy a 3-phase 110/208v system to be 220v/416v, no?

Voltages can be easily transformed, it is too bad there are 50Hz and 60Hz standards, THAT is killer.

 

[tolivac]

480-277V POPULARITY-Its the second most common LV usage voltage in the US-its said the ancestory of 480V 3ph came about from old subway systems-the 480V was rectified to run the subway cars.Now it is common for motors,broadcast transmitters(50Kw AM-some TV)Lighting equipment runs from 277V.Flourescent and HID.480V-277 like 208-120 is with us to stay.Yes-too the frequency diffrence-but with electronically controlled motors and VFD in equipment-this is becoming less of a problem.An older industrial 3ph voltage was 575V-not used much anymore-used for large motors-480V can do the same thing.for really large motors-run them from MV-2500V,4160V 3ph.