1980s Whirlpool Imperial Seventy - Oil on floor

[andy70imperial]

New member here, Andy from central NJ. I hope this is the correct forum! I have a 35+ year old Whirlpool Imperial Seventy washing machine that has served me well.....all I have had to do is replace the snubber and keep the machine clean! This thing is built like a tank, and the model # is LA7800XPN1 (I have the matching dryer too). The bad news is that recently the washer started leaving a pretty big greasy/oily puddle on the floor. I tipped it up to inspect the bottom and saw a lot of fresh oil on the gearbox. Pulled the back cover to observe that the top of the gearbox had a lot of oily/greasy/watery sludge on it. I cleaned this area and was able to determine that the transmission is now oozing foamy brown oil out of the vent hole on the top of the gearbox during the spin cycle. So I assume that the oil is somehow contaminated with water and foaming up? If so what do I have to do to fix this? I hate to see this machine go if it is an easy repair...

 

[combo52]

1985 Whirlpool Belt Dr. washer leaking oil

Thank you for your very well documented question, always love it when people describe the problem well and include pictures and model number.

Unfortunately, you have a very serious problem on your hand. Water is leaking from the tub down the agitator shaft and into the transmission, the machine needs a lot of serious work and a lot of parts For all practical purposes it’s the end of the machine. If you really do want to save it it’s possible. this machine is also likely to have an outer tub that’s in very bad condition.but there are ways to fix it if you want to put a lot of work into it And some money.

If you want to transport the washing machine to Beltsville Maryland, we can expertly rebuild it repairing what is necessary it would cost between 600 and $800. It would be here for about 30 days. You would likely get another 5 to 10 years use out of it before Other things go wrong with it unfortunately, nothing good last forever. You can probably repair it yourself if you’re willing to invest a lot of time and work in the project for just a couple hundred dollars in parts if you want to learn how it comes apart and how to fix it. There’s a lot of help on this site.

John

 

[andy70imperial]

Thanks for the reply John!

Sorry to hear the bad news about the seal in the agitator shaft. I had the feeling something like this was going on because I have seen what happens when oil and water mix in a car engine and this looks similar. I will have to search thru this site to see if there are any rebuild threads for this era machine.

The washer definitely doesn't owe me anything so no big deal if I have to replace it. I will throw $100 in parts at it though if that keeps it going. Maybe I can add a drain plug to the gearbox and change the oil twice a year lol! For a new model I just looked at a Speed Queen TC5 at the local dealer.

Right now my "fix" is plugging up the vent hole with a 1/2 inch long #10 screw with two layers of shrink wrap around it for a tight fit! It will be interesting to see where to foamy oil goes now....

 

[peteski50]

Whirlpool!

My sister had the same exact washer. It worked for 16 years without a problem and was still working when she let it go. It was a real work horse. She wanted to update to a FL and bought a frigmore set at the time.
I hope you can get it fixed.
Peter

 

[andy70imperial]

Thanks Peter!

The machine is still working so I am leaning towards just replacing the top seal instead of the whole bearing/seal kit and changing the oil (if there is an easy way to do this).

I just ran the machine without laundry at max fill with hot water (warm rinse) and my DIY vent plug held with no sign of foamy oil leaking somewhere else. I did spot some water on the floor though. Not sure if this splashed out of the tub due to the lack of laundry or leaked down the agitator shaft but it wasn't much and dripped on top of the gearbox.

Sunday is the big laundry day around here so we'll see how it behaves after that workout...

-Andy

 

[combo52]

The screw in the vent plug will probably reduce the oil leakage, but the water will now just leak that’s coming down the agitator shaft.

The transmission won’t last very long with water in it. There are several different parts that would normally fail when water got in them, it could last anywhere up to a year but who knows how long water is already been there?

There’s not a top seal that you can replace to stop this problem, the agitator shaft gets rusted if you put a new top seal in it it might last 30 days you have to replace the shafts and the seals and the spin tube at minimum the transmission may already have serious damage From water being in it. Run it and see how long you get out of it but I would have contingency plan in place.

John

 

[andy70imperial]

Thanks John!

If the vent plug makes the water end up outside of the gearcase instead of inside I would call that a "win". I can put a small shallow pan underneath the machine to catch any water drips.

Not sure how rusty the parts are in the gearcase now but I had the machine out of the laundry room about 10 months ago to clean the dryer vent and didn't see any sign of fresh oil on the floor. So I am guessing that the foamy oil is a recent development.

Yeah it wouldn't make sense to put a new seal kit in on top of metal shafts that are rusted/worn. Do they make a retrofit seal that contacts the agitator shaft in a different location? Like a metal cup that is a press fit over the tub tube with a rubber seal that fits over the whole seal/bearing area and contacts the agitator shaft? Not sure if there is room for something like that with everything in place but it kind of looks like there is from a youtube video that I watched.

Now here is a question. Isn't the seal area normally "dry"? I pulled the agitator off and I think it is designed to trap a pocket of air (like an upside-down bucket) so that the seal zone isn't submerged in water when the tub is full. I guess if air was able to leak out of the top of the agitator it could slowly fill with water inside when the tub is full but they even put a large rubber washer up there to keep it airtight.

I have included a bunch of photos. The visible part of the seal around the agitator shaft looks fine to me. Is this part of the water leak path??? I am trying to visualize where the water goes.......thru the seal(s), down the agitator shaft and bushings, past all the stuff that is mounted around the shaft under the tub (clutch or brake assembly?) and then down to the shaft/case interface. The last photo is of that area, and I did not clean it. No sign of water.

With the plastic agitator removed I looked inside it and could see condensation (from the hot water) and some drips of water from the spin cycle but other than that it didn't look like this zone was ever submerged in water. I can see some greasy residue in the lower part of the plastic from years of spin.

So is there a chance that the water in the gearcase is actually due to decades of condensation? Cold metal parts exposed to a humid environment? After all the gearcase is vented and the environment inside of the machine can get pretty steamy when hot water is used. This cycle has happened probably 1000 times, and 1000 drops of water = 10 ounces.

-Andy

 

[andy70imperial]

A correction, the last photo in the above post is a screengrab from a youtube video. Lots of hammering to change the seals and bearings! Looking at that video again there isn't room for a retrofit seal that contacts the tub tube and agitator shaft, but there might be room for one that contacts the tub tube and spin tube.

Also attached is a much larger photo of the top of the gearcase where the agitator shaft exits. Still trying to figure out how water enters here...

-Andy

 

[combo52]

Water in a belt drive transmission

Hi Andy, some interesting ideas. You probably could take it all apart and replace the seal in the spin tube and put a second one in and get it to seal on the agitator shaft and an area where there’s still plating on the shaft. It just depends how rusted it is

You’re correct. Normally there’s an air pocket under the agitator in this area doesn’t get directly wet but because there’s enough wear at the seal, the air pocket disappears during the wash cycle and water does get on this area and starts to creep down the shaft and there’s an oil seal in the top of the transmission around the agitator shaft. It’s really not designed to keep water out and water does seem to get into the transmission sweeping seeing this happen for the last 40 years , actually the last 50 the older machines did this Also.

I’m sure it is not condensation building up in the gear case, the gear case heats up slightly during normal operation and if condensation was getting in the vent hole, I think it would be driven out by the heat of operation. The gear case gets warm to the touch.

Here’s a picture of a typical agitator shaft from a machine of your age, you can see where the plating is worn through, and it’s pretty rusty where the two seals ride on it, interestingly, transmissions like this that have not gotten water in them we use them on the older machines because they had a longer center post and spin tube in And that would put the seals about 5 inches further up on the shaft where the plating is still perfect. I’ve done this many times.

 

[andy70imperial]

Thanks John! That is a great photo, and I appreciate your help. It's pretty cool that you can use a damaged part in another machine like it is brand new.

I didn't even think about air escaping thru the seal/bearing assembly so that would totally explain how that zone could get wet. I wonder if there is a way I could pack the area between the shaft seals with grease without taking it apart? Or add some spacers to the gearcase mounts to move the shafts a tiny bit lower so the seals ride on smoother surfaces? I will try to get my hands on a service manual for this machine to figure out how to work on it.

It really is too bad that there isn't an easy way to drain the gearcase oil and re-fill it, like on a differential for a car. I am thinking of maybe drilling a hole (that I can hopefully tap) on the side of the case (probably the lid) so I can tip the machine on its side (or back) and drain the bad oil out. Gotta figure out where to do this so I don't damage the moving parts inside of the gearcase.

So at this point I will see how the machine behaves after the laundry workout this Sunday with a plugged vent. If it doesn't continue to leak oil I will figure out how to change the oil without a major disassembly. Maybe I can just vacuum the bad oil out thru the vent tube and refill thru the same opening? I have a pretty serious vacuum pump for AC work.

-Andy

 

[DADoES]

 
Changing the oil ... the only way to do it correctly is pull the transmission and open it for cleaning/flushing and inspection.  There are parts that are damaged by long-term exposure to water, including a tension spring related to the agitation function ... much less joy in operation if that spring rusts and breaks.

 

[andy70imperial]

I was able to dig up a bunch of repair literature and removal of the transmission doesn't look as bad as I thought. Be that as it may I am still leaning more towards putting a drain plug in the lid of the housing so I can dump the oil, refill with solvent (kerosene?), run the machine, dump that, and then refill with fresh oil (that is not $70 for a small bottle). Of course if the oil doesn't have too much water in it I might skip the solvent step. I am kind of wondering if the oil is actually in decent shape but has just enough water in it now to make it foamy.

After Sunday's laundry I will inspect the machine closely for water leaks, paying close attention to any areas of the gearbox where water could enter.

For John: One of the manuals I scanned thru (Repair-Master # 9001 from 1986) has info at the end about a retrofit bearing-seal kit that they sold. We were discussing something like this earlier in this thread, and it looks like they actually designed and sold it. But that was almost 40 years ago.....were these popular??? If so I would love to get my hands on one because I would totally do this type of fix instead of a complete seal/bearing overhaul where you beat on things with a big hammer. Photos included, the kit was called KW 618.

-Andy

 

[114jwh]

Pulling out the transmission isn't a bad job at all - it would probably be as easy, if not easier, than drilling a hole in the transmission, filling it with oil, plugging it up etc. Many have used gear oil vs the expensive Whirlpool oil for these machines

If you want to potentially salvage the machine you could consider first pulling the basket out, cleaning out the crud in the outer tub and then inspecting it and the center post to see if there is significant rust or any rust holes. That could be the deal breaker. The picture you shared of an outer tub from YouTube is a different machine than yours - yours will be metal.

If its not bad then you may get away with just replacing the seals / spin tube, cleaning up the transmission and giving rusty areas in the outer tub a coat of something like POR15. These things are not that difficult and it sounds like you are mechanically inclined enough that it shouldn't take you that long.

Let us know how it goes!

 

[combo52]

Easy aftermarket bearing repair kit

Hi Andy, in reference to your post number 11. I remember when these kits came out back in the 70s it looked like a clever way to fix the most prevalent serious failure that belt drive machines from the 50s and 60s experienced. Original whirlpool belt drive machines only had one upper seal. It really only took about 8 to 12 years before the seal would wear out and moisture would start to get into both the main spin bearings and the agitator shaft bearing within a year or so the machine was clunking and knocking, making quite a racket and moisture was getting down into the transmission which usually destroyed the transmission also within a year or so.

Some clever I’m going to call them a shyster came up with the kit you found I think I have a few of them laying around. I’ve never even bothered trying one because I talked to people who had used them. It might give you , a few months of extra life out of a machine I fear however they were mostly used by flyby night people took worn out machines and installed this kit on it so that it would appear to work normally for a short while, it was like the old trick of putting sawdust in a worn out manual transmission to make it seem to run more smoothly for a while, but didn’t do anything to address the worn out condition .

Kit would not work on your 1985 washer because they had redesigned and shortened the spin tube and center post however you don’t have bad bearings in the center post anyway.

If you want to fix this machine, you might as well pull the transmission out and replace the agitator shaft to spin tube and all the associated seals. Also deal with any rusting conditions on the center post and in the outer tub can’t really tell without tearing it all apart, without exaggerating we’ve been through this problem many hundreds of times and I’ve rebuilt many hundreds of belt drive machines over my career now I only do it occasionally for somebody that really wants one done and for our museum machines, of course

John

 

[maytag85]

Reply #13

John, if I am not mistaken, didn’t some of the very early belt drives have some sort of way to lubricate the center post bearings? Could have sworn I saw something like that in the archives but has been a number of years.

 

[combo52]

An easy way to Add oil to top center post bearings

In the early 50s (1952)for maybe just one or two years whirlpool drilled a hole into the agitator shaft and then holes in the side of the shaft and spin tube so that you could remove the agitator cap and remove the brass stud and put light oil in and it would get to the top agitator shaft and spin to bearing.

This was fairly quickly discontinued because lubrication was never really the problem. It was more problem, moisture getting past seals. You never really have a lubrication problem until water washes away.

The idea of lubricating most household items went away even in the 50s because it became pretty easy to build things with a lifetime supply lubrication And achieve very high durability.

On my 1952 whirlpool automatic washer when I replaced the agitator shaft and spin tube, I drilled the holes in them so I could have this type of oiling system. I only did it just to make it authentic not that it will ever make any difference with the little bit of use this machine will get.

John

 

[andy70imperial]

Some really great info, thanks guys!

So gear oil instead of the expensive branded oil? That makes sense. One repair guide I have says to use 60 weight non-detergent oil, or 40W if you can't find that. It looks like Valvoline sells 60W non-detergent racing oil (VR1) and it isn't crazy expensive. VR1 has anti-foaming agents in it too.

John, I guess I will skip trying to find that KW-618 kit or anything that resembles it. Will the parts for LA7800XPW1 fit my machine (LA7800XPN1)? I don't see my model listed on the a-1appliance site but the XPW1 model is there and the exploded views look like my machine. The "W" and "X" are the only difference it the model #, which I assume is the color of the cabinet. It is interesting how they kept adding seals to the design over the years to make it survive longer. Maybe I can put 3 seals at the top and shift everything lower where the shaft isn't pitted? Or maybe the new seals are different height compared to OEM and I wouldn't have to shift anything.

Sunday laundry is in progress right now, and I have the machine setup so I can inspect the transmission and look for any water making its way down to the lower levels. We just finished a heavy cycle (14 minute wash) at cold/cold water temp and max water level and things look good. I heard what I think is faint rod knock early in the cycle. Not sure if I can attach a video of that here. The vent plug I installed held and I don't see a drop of water anywhere on top of the transmission, on the agitator shaft, or on the parts above it. It is even bone dry in the thin space between the bottom of the tub and the platform that it is mounted to. Running the machine without laundry a few days ago might be the reason I saw water on the gearcase and floor.

There are a few more hours of laundry to go (including some max hot/warm cycles at the end) so I will report back when that is done. The next few are gentle at low water levels/temps...

-Andy

 

[maytag85]

When I rebuilt the transmission in mine 3 years ago, put Royal Purple 90 weight gear oil in, never a problem from the summer of 2021 to January 2023. I have a spare Whirlpool transmission and for experimentation purposes, might put corn head grease in that once since corn head grease turns into a heavy gear oil when mixed around.

Is the ‘rod knock’ sound only when agitating, or does it make that sound whenever the motor is running? If it’s making a knocking sound when agitating, the set screw on the pulley could be loose which could be a source of the noise, had that happen before.

 

[DADoES]

 
LA7800XPN1, LA7800XPW1 ... 9th position is the color.  N = almond.  W is white.  That's the only difference.

8th position is the year of market introduction.  P = 1985.  The serial number is coded for the year and week of factory production (different character coding than the model-year).  Some models are produced longer than one year so the serial is more accurate for age.

The number after the color code is the engineering revision (0 and up), which is relevant for correct parts.