2018 Regulations

[johnb300m]

Lead is a critical nutrient that humans need for brain development.
These people in Flint and elsewhere are idiots who just don't understand they're trying to run up nonsensical municipal costs, when their lead pipes are really a health benefit.
And don't get me started on the banning of leaded gasoline!
It was perfectly safe!
How did we become the global superpower we are today with all that lead in the air?
It's all a ruse.

 

[speedqueen]

Don't get me wrong,

I am not opposed to banning dangerous chemicals, it's just that DDT wasn't a dangerous chemical.

 

[48bencix]

Efficiency

I appreciate how efficient many appliances are these days. New Air Conditioning systems are very efficient. LED bulbs are efficient, long lasting and produce very pleasing light. In California our building energy standards utilize lots of insulation and multi pane windows and the new building built are much more energy efficient than the old ones. Many of us have installed additional insulation and dual pane windows to use less energy.

But I do think the appliance standards for washers and possibly dishwashers are going too far for the Appliance Mfrs. to make washers that can wash laundry clean and last without breakdown. A modern TL or FL washer has a computer controlled system that must sense and adjust agitation or tumbling and spin to use so little water. The poor motors are constantly changing speed and unless they are really well built, will not last, same for the computer control board.

So I want to be efficient, but only to a certain point.

 

[tolivac]

Yes,that is what I do for a washer or even a dishwasher--buy an older one from the swap shop.LEDs have some advantages and not so-Life on them is still largely inconsistent-some may last for years-others not so.ALL electric lighting will fade or fail from age-yes including LED-on LED-the DRIVER circuit is more likely to fail than the LED-and to get good light levels from LED-they have to be driven hard or even overdriven-increasing chance of failure.The ban on mercury and probe start MH bulbs is STUPID-these light sources are proven,efficient-more so than incandescent and even some fluorescent.They are reliable,inexpensive,and can give MORE lumens per watt than LED.I signed a petition to reverse the ban on mercury lighting and probe start Metal Halide.Some mercury lamps have burned for 10 yrs in streetlights with only slight dimming or degradation.As we all know energy and water prices vary according to area.In my locale water is the lowest priced utility.So a water saving washer or potty is not going to payback for me.
As pointed out ealier there is an overreaction to lead water supply pipes-when these are used over time-a coating of minerals and calcium covers the insides of the pipe-so the lead is no longer a hazard.If the water has a slight acid content than it could be a hazard.I feel more of the bans are being done by people that are not qualified to make them.They do not have the techcial knowledge to make the decisions.

 

[vacerator]

Um Ok then,

if bottled water were sold with lead, or DDT added, you would drink it?
The Romans used lead for their plumbing. They were all whacko. Lead causes memory and brain disorders, among other things. Lead paint chips anyone? Enjoy.
Richard Jolly, before you were born, it was proven DDT caused many diseases, in fact the canals down near 9 mile road off of Jefferson in St. Clair Shores had to be dredged and remediated of it.
Diazinon is another dangerous pesticide.
I was more gullible also at your age. Swam at Metro beach lately? No, be cause it's been closed for years, with good reason.

 

[iheartmaytag]

Vacerator: One correction please

There was no "Credit Union Scandal"  It was the "Credit Thrifts"  The Savings and Loans. 

 

I worked for Credit Unions during the 80s and 90s, I do not recall a Credit Union Scandal.  NCUA & CUNA are still as strong as they have  always been.

 

[speedqueen]

I respect your opinion but disagree,

Again, I am not defending lead.

*A rather famous professor for 40 years as part of his lectures drank a small amount of DDT and lived until the age of 84 and only died whilst climbing a mountain.

*The Nine Mile canals had to be dredged because of PCBs or PolyChlorinatedBiphenals which are a proven carcinogen and tend to stay in the environment. DDT in studies has been inconclusive or only slightly higher a risk. Just about every chemical currently in use for even household uses such as most cleaning products show about the same results as being mostly inconclusive or possibly carcinogenic.

*Metro Beach is still open with no threat from chemicals, I swam there last year. The real concern for some beach closures is all the Canada Goose droppings and seaweed causing high bacteria levels due to the general water current patterns causing it all to stay in the bay and accumulate. If you haven't heard of the park recently, it is due to the fact that Huron-Clinton Metroparks changed the name to "Lake St. Clair Metropark" a few years ago.

 

[ryanm]

I do hope these regulations do NOT go into affect as others have said here the water regulations have gone too far already. I agree to save resources, but there is a limit. We went from having machines that lasted 12 to 15 years or longer to machines that are going to the dump after a few years because the electronics or design causes them to fail and the cost to fix them far greater than the price of the machine, so now our dumps will fill up more with trash. Machines now can take an hour, two hours or more to complete a cycle thus using more 'energy' in electric as well, so we are saving on water but using more energy in other ways like having machines 'heat' water because the water temperature coming into the machine is less than 'hot'. We now have some 'good' machines that use less water, but if new regulations restrict water even more I can't see how any machine could operate properly and clean. I truly hope it just stays the way it is without any further changes, time will tell. When I watch the videos of older washing machines and how they washed and circulated clothes, there is just no comparison to the way newer machines work today, and this goes for front loaders as well where we used to be able to at least see water, now they look like they are being 'dry cleaned' and those in my family and friends who have them complain their kids clothes just don't come clean no matter what they do. We do need water to clean the clothes no matter what..... period.

 

[johnb300m]

So.....once again, as with anything.....there's a NUANCED approach.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...sk-the-professor-who-ate-it-for-40-years.html

From that article it looks like DDT is generally safe for humans.
But there's evidence of it doing considerable damage over time to ecosystems when used in overabundance in agriculture.
So because humans suck at nuance, and seem to lean towards black and white solutions, it's probably too much to ask using DDT as a positive home pesticide to battle malaria-laced mosquitoes, bed bugs etc. Without it being used and abused, en mass, for agribusiness.

And just because that professor was seemingly 'fine' eating DDT for 40 years. Does not mean it would NOT be damaging to others.
We just celebrated my grandfather's 90th birthday.
He has chain-smoked pipes since he was 16, and he's in practically perfect health.
Does that mean that we should roll back smoking recommendations?
Hey everyone! Smoking is safe! This guy is 90!
"Lucky Strikes are your doctor's preferred cigarettes."

I may be young, but I still remember life in the early 90s on the south side of Chicago when the air would just STINK in the summer.
We used to also have ozone action days when it got really hot and smoggy.
You can also boat/kayak in the Chicago river without coming down with some debilitating disease now.
We don't have that anymore!
Nor do we have the roaring, belching industry we used to have.
But it's not like it's ALL gone.
Many of the industries still in the area are still building things. Ford's Chicago plant is thriving. There's other smaller shops and manufacturers that have opened up over the years, as well as an ultra-green, massive, soap factory for the Method brand.
Industry is still producing, but with cleaner methods and technologies.
Except Koch Industries on the south side. They still do the bare minimum, or nothing at all. And people complain all the time about the dust and pollution from their coal dust piles and such.

In general, increasing efficiency is a net benefit to everyone.
That's the key, everyone.
Are there areas of dispute? Sure, but I'd hope we're smart enough to work through it.
Those who draw a line and refuse to move forward will be left behind.
Bye.

 

[johnb300m]

Wow, and how many more times does it have to be said, that just because a machine is running for 2-3 hours, does NOT mean it's using more energy?
Such a simple, elementary misnomer.
These machines are using more efficient, smaller motors, some with rare earth magnets that deliver much more power and torque for their size and consumption.
Fine....you don't like the time-table.
But many of these are using the same or less electricity than a 60 watt bulb. And doing far more work than putting out just a little light for your living room.

 

[johnb300m]

I'll just put this right here:



Google currently has the right to pump up to half a million gallons a day at no charge. Now the company is asking to triple that, to 1.5 million. That's close to half of the groundwater that Mount Pleasant Waterworks pumps daily from the same underground aquifer to help supply drinking water to more than 80,000 residents of the area.

"It's raised the issue that these resources are not limitless," he said, "that we do need to manage them."

 

[jerrod6]

You are young? I thought you sounded like you were in your 30s or 40s. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[johnb300m]

I am in my lower 30s.
That's 'young' on here. LOL!

 

[gusherb]

If 30s is "young"

Then I'm a baby!

John we still have ozone action days in the summer. The smog still gets pretty damn bad when the humidity kicks up real high and the wind isn't blowing. Idk how I'd survive on those days without A/C, entering an air conditioned space is like putting an oxygen mask on for survival then.

 

[Chetlaham]

So break this down for the less bright like my self This means that 2018 top loads can only use 16 gallons of water max?

 

[henene4]

As far as I understand, a washer can only use the amount of water in the tabel posted earlier.

The way I understand the maths to apply backwards is that number in the list times its cubicfootage per one cycle.

Energy is weirder. That includes the energy used to heat the water electricly. And the number in the tabel is cubicfootage divided by kWh used per cycle. Means a TL greater then 1.6ft³ would be allowed to use 0.64kWh per ft³ of volume.

But what makes this system of yours werired anyways is it base on ft³ and not load size. Load size is determined according to ft³, and from the numbers I remeber reading once, they don't scal well at all.

You see, in the EU, manufacturers decide the load size, and thus can choose it in a way that suits their wash system the best. Some use a lower drum volume for the same amount of laundry somebody else might use, for example. Thus they just have to meet the ratings and can manipulate the fillrate for the machine themselfes, for example 1kg of laundry per 10l of drum volume.
The US regulations force you to design you washer for 1, maybe 2 verry specific conditions that you can't influence. Both your energy regulations and consumer test magazines use pretty simmilar testing methods, so manufacturers just focus on that one situation during design of the normal cycle.

It's just like the UI labeling system the US has for washers (Words instead of numbers).
It says you something, but really not the best thing used to suit the situation.
The labeling should be reformed, and place less restrictions on the manufacturer in ways that are not really ment to be regulated.

(To explain that last sentence: Manufacturers need to be restricted in terms of usage and results in conjunction: They need to produce clean, well rinsed and spun loads while using an for the current technology acceptable amount of resources.
How full they load their drum, or how the cycle that achieves that rating is called should not be concern of the labeling agency, not even how the cycle achieves that usage.)

I think that the EU system is way fairer then the US one, though not perfect:
- We require a certain cleaningresults.
- We require a certain efficency.
- We do not require the most efficent, though the more efficent appliances are labeled as such.
- We do require certain non cycle related design aspects (the label cycle has to be marked as being the most efficent, it has to be in a position that suggests the user to use it - for example on digital push button machines it has to be the default after turning on with default settings - and most appliances require a self-shutoff at the end of a cycle - which is a smart thing as most people don't remove their laundry right away and that reduces the unused standbye time without bothering the user.)
- We allow the actual most used (and most practicable) cycle to be less efficent and still allow it to be 'in the users eye'.

The only big drawback is that we sometimes don't consider other factors about the results (for washers rinsing; for DW we require a minimum drying efficency, but that is kind of not really a challange to pass nor is the result required considered 'good' by consumers; on condenser dryers, we require a labeling on how much water is reclaimed from a load in percent, but not how much moisture stays in the load, and the load used to determine the usage is way to damp for todays standard).

So if I was from the US, I would not ask for a set-back of regulations, but a change in how the regulations are set up.
Look at the EU:
You over there complain that machines often only can wash loads clean that are far smaller then what the tub could hold. Why? Your machines are tested for a fixed load sizes that is far smaller then what the drum could hold.
In the EU, machines are tested for full and half load usage, and how big a load is is determined by the person who build the washer and thus knows how the machine is best used.

But I doubt any of this will be taken into acount by anyone...

 

[Chetlaham]

Taken into account by me And yes, I think we should use the EU system. But to be fair, I think part of the issue is that most US consumers do not care about how many kg should be loaded per cycle. Most users simply stuff their machines full and walk away. In fact machines that can hold more clothes sell better.

 

[vacerator]

"small amounts" Richard;

of DDT, lead, mercury, etc. in small doses are not harmfull.
Of course, it's the long term effect. Same with Dioxin.
Yes I heard about the goose droppings, and now we have raw sewage going into the Canal road spillway, and the lake from the Fraser sink hole.
I think the original contractors should have to pay for that repair, not us.
They are being sued. Our water bills are high enough.

Maybe I am old on here. I've seen and smelled some things from the Clinton river one should not have to smell. A 6 mil property tax to smell that.
People are saying it was Kwamee Kilpatricks fault. Maybe the 2004 sink hole was on 15 mile between Utica road and Hayes (Villa Fontana), but not this one. He went to prison in 2009. This one was inspected and worked on two years ago and was qualified as safe.
That street isn't ten years old yet. The sewers had to be inspected before the street was poured. It's on the Detroit water and sewer commission, and or Wayne county, not Macomb. It's also whom ever was hired by the developers.
Look on the Google street view map in front of that house that sank on the corner. You can clearly see the sidewalk already sinking in the photo and the back hoe track marks in the grass. That means Google was there following the work and inspection two years ago.

 

[vacerator]

Dioxin?

is it safe?

 

[ryanm]

Everyone has good points here but what I don't understand is most of the US manufacturers have now come out with top load models that have improved with the 'deep fill' option, and they have even gone back to putting agitators in most of the brands as an alternative to just a wash plate, so why would they spend time and effort on research and development of these features if the 'new regulations' are going to force them to do 'away' with these options? It just does not make sense to me unless those insiders in the industry know more about the subject of what regulations are really going to be 'mandatory' and which may not really be used? If the regulations were 'mandatory' then Speed Queen would not have been able to continue with their machines all these years, so I have to wonder if the machine will fulfill the regulations as long as the machine does 'offer' the low water option while it can still have the option to 'override' that low fill? Just food for thought, and I really like the idea of having the choice to let the machine do regulation when I don't need lots of water, but if I happen to have a really heavy dirty load, I can choose the deep fill. I have noticed many appliance dealers now carrying a large selection of top loaders as well, which means many people here in USA still prefer them, it is a personal preference that we are offered both top and front load to satisfy everyone's likes and dislikes. Most people don't even know about what is happening with water restrictions on washers until they have to buy a new one and realize it is so different. What a shock people will be in for if regulations go even further here to use that ridiculously low water measures that were in the document shared here! I know I will need a machine soon and now feel pressured to get one before year end because of the 'unknown' effects of this new regulation.....