Everyone has good points here but what I don't understand is most of the US manufacturers have now come out with top load models that have improved with the 'deep fill' option, and they have even gone back to putting agitators in most of the brands as an alternative to just a wash plate, so why would they spend time and effort on research and development of these features if the 'new regulations' are going to force them to do 'away' with these options? It just does not make sense to me unless those insiders in the industry know more about the subject of what regulations are really going to be 'mandatory' and which may not really be used? If the regulations were 'mandatory' then Speed Queen would not have been able to continue with their machines all these years, so I have to wonder if the machine will fulfill the regulations as long as the machine does 'offer' the low water option while it can still have the option to 'override' that low fill? Just food for thought, and I really like the idea of having the choice to let the machine do regulation when I don't need lots of water, but if I happen to have a really heavy dirty load, I can choose the deep fill. I have noticed many appliance dealers now carrying a large selection of top loaders as well, which means many people here in USA still prefer them, it is a personal preference that we are offered both top and front load to satisfy everyone's likes and dislikes. Most people don't even know about what is happening with water restrictions on washers until they have to buy a new one and realize it is so different. What a shock people will be in for if regulations go even further here to use that ridiculously low water measures that were in the document shared here! I know I will need a machine soon and now feel pressured to get one before year end because of the 'unknown' effects of this new regulation.....
2018 Regulations
- Thread starter Chetlaham
- Start date
Help Support :
Ryan:
You are *almost* there -- just a few more steps and you'll get it.
*Please* do not confuse local regulations (for example, some places in California prohibit the installation of electric dryers in *new* construction, but grandfather old stuff, or the entire state of California decides to *prohibit* traditional top loading washers in laundromats) with Federal Regulations.
Federal Regulations (particularly Energy Star) for washers and dryers are *voluntary*. If the manufacturers want the Energy Star stamp on particular models, they need to comply with the regulations and they get money back from the government for doing so. It is *voluntary*. No one is saying they can't make whatever they want, only that if they do it a certain way, they get rewarded for it.
If they make anything like a traditional Speed Queen toploader, they get no money.
If they make a toploader that cheats and dumbs down the temps, they get a bit of money. If they lower the water levels, they get a little more money. If they come out with a High Efficiency washer, they get the most money.
And, if that was not enough for you to take in, please look up Regulatory Capture, link below.
Because *everything* that ended up in the Energy Star program was written with the consent of and by the manufacturers themselves. They set the timeline, they set the goals, they set the way it's gonna work. They do that by getting together, agreeing on the "program" and then all of them together lobby the lawmakers at several levels to propose and pass *exactly* what they want passed.
Then, to complete the package with a nice bow, they pay people who go on tour interviewing and/or posting online about how the government is ruining everything and how we have no choice and no one listens to the population.
You know why they do that? Because they are not prepared to release good products that work well under the circumstances we need them to. Bad toilet makers just lowered the water level on the tanks to provide 1.6 gal/flush without re-engineering their toilets, for example -- result? Bad flushes, things that clog. Meanwhile, toilets coming from Toto, Japan, flush just fine with only 1.2 gal/flush without clogging.
Same thing with dishwashers and washers etc here. Some can't work with no-phosphate detergents, despite the lots of water, while some Euro dishwashers work just fine thank you with less water and the new no-phosphate detergents. Not to say anything of new HE frontloaders in Europe that work with less water and energy, washing and rinsing much better than most machines here, traditional or not.
Because here, when we test, the Energy Star only tests partway: for example, which machine needs less energy, while not testing if they clean.
For the longest time, the Energy Star program tested dishwashers with sensors with *clean* dishes, so they all flew thru the test, got the stamp, but reverted to water and energy guzzlers the second the dishes had any dirt in them. That took a few years to fix. (BTW, doesn't that remind you of a certain "scandal" with a certain car which zipped thru the EPA test but then used much more fuel, sorry, "felt peppier", under actual road conditions?)
In my opinion, if we're gonna test, we should *test*: put dirty loads in the washers and dishwaters, make sure they come out clean and well rinsed. See how dry things come out. See if the machines wear out clothing or break dishes in their effort to clean. Etc.
Also, in my opinion, and I have done this, when I call the DOE/EPA, manufacturers etc, I don't say stuff like "it needs more water", or "it should not be saving water/energy" etc. Because you should realize that there are places that are running out of water and/or energy, even if my neighborhood and your neighborhood are just fine.
What is *effective* is to complain that the machines are not cleaning adequately -- because in Europe, where the resources are more scarce and more expensive, the very same manufacturers that have subsidiaries here and there can make very good very effective machines there.
We need, as a country/community, to stop rewarding manufacturers for stabbing us in the back and making bad appliances! Please stop crying about high efficiency and start asking for high efficacy -- they are not mutually exclusive. Do you really *want* to waste 5 gallons/flush if a toilet works at least as well with 1.2 gallons/flush? Start asking for *productive* stuff: I want the washer to reach 140F so it can get rid of dust mites. I want the washer to clean *and* rinse. Etc. Manufacturers pay attention to that.
Cheers,
-- Paulo.
You are *almost* there -- just a few more steps and you'll get it.
*Please* do not confuse local regulations (for example, some places in California prohibit the installation of electric dryers in *new* construction, but grandfather old stuff, or the entire state of California decides to *prohibit* traditional top loading washers in laundromats) with Federal Regulations.
Federal Regulations (particularly Energy Star) for washers and dryers are *voluntary*. If the manufacturers want the Energy Star stamp on particular models, they need to comply with the regulations and they get money back from the government for doing so. It is *voluntary*. No one is saying they can't make whatever they want, only that if they do it a certain way, they get rewarded for it.
If they make anything like a traditional Speed Queen toploader, they get no money.
If they make a toploader that cheats and dumbs down the temps, they get a bit of money. If they lower the water levels, they get a little more money. If they come out with a High Efficiency washer, they get the most money.
And, if that was not enough for you to take in, please look up Regulatory Capture, link below.
Because *everything* that ended up in the Energy Star program was written with the consent of and by the manufacturers themselves. They set the timeline, they set the goals, they set the way it's gonna work. They do that by getting together, agreeing on the "program" and then all of them together lobby the lawmakers at several levels to propose and pass *exactly* what they want passed.
Then, to complete the package with a nice bow, they pay people who go on tour interviewing and/or posting online about how the government is ruining everything and how we have no choice and no one listens to the population.
You know why they do that? Because they are not prepared to release good products that work well under the circumstances we need them to. Bad toilet makers just lowered the water level on the tanks to provide 1.6 gal/flush without re-engineering their toilets, for example -- result? Bad flushes, things that clog. Meanwhile, toilets coming from Toto, Japan, flush just fine with only 1.2 gal/flush without clogging.
Same thing with dishwashers and washers etc here. Some can't work with no-phosphate detergents, despite the lots of water, while some Euro dishwashers work just fine thank you with less water and the new no-phosphate detergents. Not to say anything of new HE frontloaders in Europe that work with less water and energy, washing and rinsing much better than most machines here, traditional or not.
Because here, when we test, the Energy Star only tests partway: for example, which machine needs less energy, while not testing if they clean.
For the longest time, the Energy Star program tested dishwashers with sensors with *clean* dishes, so they all flew thru the test, got the stamp, but reverted to water and energy guzzlers the second the dishes had any dirt in them. That took a few years to fix. (BTW, doesn't that remind you of a certain "scandal" with a certain car which zipped thru the EPA test but then used much more fuel, sorry, "felt peppier", under actual road conditions?)
In my opinion, if we're gonna test, we should *test*: put dirty loads in the washers and dishwaters, make sure they come out clean and well rinsed. See how dry things come out. See if the machines wear out clothing or break dishes in their effort to clean. Etc.
Also, in my opinion, and I have done this, when I call the DOE/EPA, manufacturers etc, I don't say stuff like "it needs more water", or "it should not be saving water/energy" etc. Because you should realize that there are places that are running out of water and/or energy, even if my neighborhood and your neighborhood are just fine.
What is *effective* is to complain that the machines are not cleaning adequately -- because in Europe, where the resources are more scarce and more expensive, the very same manufacturers that have subsidiaries here and there can make very good very effective machines there.
We need, as a country/community, to stop rewarding manufacturers for stabbing us in the back and making bad appliances! Please stop crying about high efficiency and start asking for high efficacy -- they are not mutually exclusive. Do you really *want* to waste 5 gallons/flush if a toilet works at least as well with 1.2 gallons/flush? Start asking for *productive* stuff: I want the washer to reach 140F so it can get rid of dust mites. I want the washer to clean *and* rinse. Etc. Manufacturers pay attention to that.
Cheers,
-- Paulo.
Thanks, John!!!
mayken4now
Well-known member
Buy A Seed Queen
machine today!
albeit, they can not stop ME from hooking my washer hoses to a certain inlet valve and manually fill and or control the temp of the water used in my machine. Now conquer that one. Anyone?
machine today!
albeit, they can not stop ME from hooking my washer hoses to a certain inlet valve and manually fill and or control the temp of the water used in my machine. Now conquer that one. Anyone?
Here is an interesting note from one of the distributors which shows Speed Queen will most likely be going down the same path as other manufacturers have in the change of their machines.
2018 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY REGULATIONS FOR RESIDENTIAL LAUNDRY PRODUCTS
All washing machine manufacturers must comply with all safety and energy standards issued by the Department of Energy. The current residential top loading clothes washer standards were last amended on March 7, 2015 and the next set of regulations will impact machine designs beginning January 1, 2018. In order to comply, both the integrated modified energy factor and integrated water factor become more stringent.
New Speed Queen designs will still deliver long life, high commercial quality parts, reliability and clean clothes. Speed Queen will not compromise on that now or in 2018.
Speed Queen occasionally receives questions from consumers online or through social media who were told that Speed Queen Top Load Washers or other brands will go away in 2018 or sooner. Nothing could be further from the truth and Speed Queen will not be going anywhere.
The 2018 top load design modifications have been in development for several years. As we get closer to production launch, they will formally unveil their new design. We are confident customers will agree that the new added machine features will have the same great appeal as current models.
Thank you for your commitment and support of Speed Queen Home Laundry. We look forward to continuing to supply you with world class washers and dryers that are built better to last longer.
2018 DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY REGULATIONS FOR RESIDENTIAL LAUNDRY PRODUCTS
All washing machine manufacturers must comply with all safety and energy standards issued by the Department of Energy. The current residential top loading clothes washer standards were last amended on March 7, 2015 and the next set of regulations will impact machine designs beginning January 1, 2018. In order to comply, both the integrated modified energy factor and integrated water factor become more stringent.
New Speed Queen designs will still deliver long life, high commercial quality parts, reliability and clean clothes. Speed Queen will not compromise on that now or in 2018.
Speed Queen occasionally receives questions from consumers online or through social media who were told that Speed Queen Top Load Washers or other brands will go away in 2018 or sooner. Nothing could be further from the truth and Speed Queen will not be going anywhere.
The 2018 top load design modifications have been in development for several years. As we get closer to production launch, they will formally unveil their new design. We are confident customers will agree that the new added machine features will have the same great appeal as current models.
Thank you for your commitment and support of Speed Queen Home Laundry. We look forward to continuing to supply you with world class washers and dryers that are built better to last longer.
Sorry, but that is not even worth the paper it was written on.
Again, it's all part of the talking points manufacturers give their reps to agitate some people into a frenzy -- it gets them to buy stuff now for fear it will change in the future.
Will it change in the future? Who knows. It might. Most manufacturers want the rebate and tax breaks from the government, after all. 40 years ago, management of big companies had a fiduciary obligation to keep the stocks from a company *valuable* over decades. Lately, most investors seem to think management has a fiduciary obligation to maximize *dividends* for the investor, not quality, not stability etc.
Please keep in mind that investors are the worst possible people to pay attention to: they have no loyalty to a company, and they provide no services that you can't get from anywhere else. All they provide is investment money, which you can get from any bank or any other investor. They don't like what your dividends were for last quarter, not only they're gone, but they *lower* your stock price in selling it.
Actual clients, who buy your product and like it are much more desirable. Just look around here how the satisfied SpeedQueen clients manage to get other clients to buy too. For next to nothing.
SpeedQueen can choose to cave into the desires of their investors if they want to, and grab the money from Energy Star. They'll lose clients just like any other company.
And yet, the truth is that SpeedQueen has NO obligation to produce an Energy Star machine, none whatsoever. Personally speaking, if I were in their top management, I'd produce the best HE frontloader we could, with a heater and everything, and grab Energy Star money for those, and I'd also put out a traditional toploader with no energy or water saving features whatsoever.
So all the toploader fans could get one, and I'd keep gaining market share by selling HE frontloaders.
Make no mistake, toploaders are not for long -- not because federal government and/or DOE/EnergyStar whatever. Toploaders days are marked because people don't want them anymore.
You folks may be set in your ways, afraid of change or whatever reason.
But new clients are not like you. They have a busy life, they have kids, they hate doing laundry, they are *done* with top loading washers.
Every person with kids that came to my home to try laundry equipment ends up buying a front loading washer, period end of sentence.
Here's what most people have done since 1900's: pre-tread *all* stains (hard, unpleasant work, takes over 30 minutes per load for super- or extra-capacity load, particularly when kids clothes are stained for every item); sometimes you need to soak and/or make the washer manually pre-wash. Then you finally start the wash cycle. Sometimes you need to do an extra rinse even for machines that include an automatic extra rinse. In short, you may have a short 30-45 minute cycle, but you'd *better* be nearby paying attention to the machine and manually intervening for best results.
We may find all of that fun, but we are not typical.
Here's what the *typical* customer does, when they finally get what they want.
They want to load the machine without pretreating anything. They want a machine that will do a profile wash automatically if necessary for very stained items. They want a machine that if necessary, they can load all the detergent, additives etc (including an automatic pre-wash, if necessary), they *go away* for an hour or two, come back and put all the clean clothes in the dryer. Done. People who came to my home, put their kids clothes in the frontloader, ignored it while we had dinner and just found everything to be clean ready for the dryer never want to go back to the old ways.
In summary, they want their clothes washer to behave like a modern dishwasher: load it, put all the detergent for the pre-wash if necessary, wash, turn it on, come back later. No one wants to be around babysitting the appliances anymore.
Dial pushers are complaining about the electronics because it makes it hard to skip and/or repeat part(s) of a cycle.
Typical customers are welcoming the electronics/computer controlled machines because they don't *have* to be dial pushers.
Are computer controlled machines ideal? Nope. Their interface sometimes suck, there are plenty of manufacturers that can't seem to offer a quality product, or adequate cycles etc. Most of the interfaces are not accessible to handicapped users and that needs to change for the better and it will.
But rest assured that all the brute force we had engineered into appliances from 1950's to compensate for lack of computer control and the lack of patience of a user are going away.
We are running out of water in places like Arizona and New Mexico, we are running out of energy in places like New York state and Massachusetts, and we're running out of water *and* energy in many other places.
As soon as clients see an old-style toploader next to a new HE frontloader and compare the energy stickers just to find out that the new HE machines consume less than 1/3 the energy and water *and* they don't have to do the time-consuming and labor-intensive work of pretreating stains anymore with HE machines, they are sold.
Some later regret the longer wash cycles. Some understand the longer cycles are still *shorter* than manually pre-treating every freaking stain, and calm down. Some just give up a Monday laundry day with 10 cycles, and they do a cycle every two or three days when *that* kind of load (say, whites) is full and choose to do the darks, or towels, or linens a few days later, when they get a full load.
But the truth is that people adapt very quickly to doing less work and getting better results.
Because honestly, if we *were* to take you toploader fans seriously when you bitch about cycle time etc, well, *nothing*, not even a good wringer washer, has beaten a good twin-tub for effective cleaning and speed. You can let them wash as long as you want until the stains are gone, which is usually less than 20 minutes, you can change washing solutions at will, you can rinse to your heart's content. And every load usually takes less than 30 minutes each.
But I don't see many people going back to twin-tubs. Even people who *have* one. We usually only fire them up on occasion when we have time to fiddle, or to show to people who's never seen one. But try to do the whole week's wash on one, and most people will end up with back aches next day. No, thank you.
Cheers,
-- Paulo.
Again, it's all part of the talking points manufacturers give their reps to agitate some people into a frenzy -- it gets them to buy stuff now for fear it will change in the future.
Will it change in the future? Who knows. It might. Most manufacturers want the rebate and tax breaks from the government, after all. 40 years ago, management of big companies had a fiduciary obligation to keep the stocks from a company *valuable* over decades. Lately, most investors seem to think management has a fiduciary obligation to maximize *dividends* for the investor, not quality, not stability etc.
Please keep in mind that investors are the worst possible people to pay attention to: they have no loyalty to a company, and they provide no services that you can't get from anywhere else. All they provide is investment money, which you can get from any bank or any other investor. They don't like what your dividends were for last quarter, not only they're gone, but they *lower* your stock price in selling it.
Actual clients, who buy your product and like it are much more desirable. Just look around here how the satisfied SpeedQueen clients manage to get other clients to buy too. For next to nothing.
SpeedQueen can choose to cave into the desires of their investors if they want to, and grab the money from Energy Star. They'll lose clients just like any other company.
And yet, the truth is that SpeedQueen has NO obligation to produce an Energy Star machine, none whatsoever. Personally speaking, if I were in their top management, I'd produce the best HE frontloader we could, with a heater and everything, and grab Energy Star money for those, and I'd also put out a traditional toploader with no energy or water saving features whatsoever.
So all the toploader fans could get one, and I'd keep gaining market share by selling HE frontloaders.
Make no mistake, toploaders are not for long -- not because federal government and/or DOE/EnergyStar whatever. Toploaders days are marked because people don't want them anymore.
You folks may be set in your ways, afraid of change or whatever reason.
But new clients are not like you. They have a busy life, they have kids, they hate doing laundry, they are *done* with top loading washers.
Every person with kids that came to my home to try laundry equipment ends up buying a front loading washer, period end of sentence.
Here's what most people have done since 1900's: pre-tread *all* stains (hard, unpleasant work, takes over 30 minutes per load for super- or extra-capacity load, particularly when kids clothes are stained for every item); sometimes you need to soak and/or make the washer manually pre-wash. Then you finally start the wash cycle. Sometimes you need to do an extra rinse even for machines that include an automatic extra rinse. In short, you may have a short 30-45 minute cycle, but you'd *better* be nearby paying attention to the machine and manually intervening for best results.
We may find all of that fun, but we are not typical.
Here's what the *typical* customer does, when they finally get what they want.
They want to load the machine without pretreating anything. They want a machine that will do a profile wash automatically if necessary for very stained items. They want a machine that if necessary, they can load all the detergent, additives etc (including an automatic pre-wash, if necessary), they *go away* for an hour or two, come back and put all the clean clothes in the dryer. Done. People who came to my home, put their kids clothes in the frontloader, ignored it while we had dinner and just found everything to be clean ready for the dryer never want to go back to the old ways.
In summary, they want their clothes washer to behave like a modern dishwasher: load it, put all the detergent for the pre-wash if necessary, wash, turn it on, come back later. No one wants to be around babysitting the appliances anymore.
Dial pushers are complaining about the electronics because it makes it hard to skip and/or repeat part(s) of a cycle.
Typical customers are welcoming the electronics/computer controlled machines because they don't *have* to be dial pushers.
Are computer controlled machines ideal? Nope. Their interface sometimes suck, there are plenty of manufacturers that can't seem to offer a quality product, or adequate cycles etc. Most of the interfaces are not accessible to handicapped users and that needs to change for the better and it will.
But rest assured that all the brute force we had engineered into appliances from 1950's to compensate for lack of computer control and the lack of patience of a user are going away.
We are running out of water in places like Arizona and New Mexico, we are running out of energy in places like New York state and Massachusetts, and we're running out of water *and* energy in many other places.
As soon as clients see an old-style toploader next to a new HE frontloader and compare the energy stickers just to find out that the new HE machines consume less than 1/3 the energy and water *and* they don't have to do the time-consuming and labor-intensive work of pretreating stains anymore with HE machines, they are sold.
Some later regret the longer wash cycles. Some understand the longer cycles are still *shorter* than manually pre-treating every freaking stain, and calm down. Some just give up a Monday laundry day with 10 cycles, and they do a cycle every two or three days when *that* kind of load (say, whites) is full and choose to do the darks, or towels, or linens a few days later, when they get a full load.
But the truth is that people adapt very quickly to doing less work and getting better results.
Because honestly, if we *were* to take you toploader fans seriously when you bitch about cycle time etc, well, *nothing*, not even a good wringer washer, has beaten a good twin-tub for effective cleaning and speed. You can let them wash as long as you want until the stains are gone, which is usually less than 20 minutes, you can change washing solutions at will, you can rinse to your heart's content. And every load usually takes less than 30 minutes each.
But I don't see many people going back to twin-tubs. Even people who *have* one. We usually only fire them up on occasion when we have time to fiddle, or to show to people who's never seen one. But try to do the whole week's wash on one, and most people will end up with back aches next day. No, thank you.
Cheers,
-- Paulo.
Oh, and just so we don't forget, I believe it was even cited on this thread: who wants to bet the Department of Energy will even *be* there in 2018, given how many departments and regulations are being sent to the trash?
And the EnergyStar "regulations" are *voluntary* to begin with?
And the EnergyStar "regulations" are *voluntary* to begin with?
"And the EnergyStar "regulations" are *voluntary
Well yes, but federal government gives appliance manufactures a promised sum for being in the program. What is more by now many, many, many consumers look for those yellow labels/information when buying a new appliance.
Sure we here may want washing machines or dishwashers that use more water or whatever, but what does the average American consumer say? Would such appliances of old sell in enough numbers to justify production?
Well yes, but federal government gives appliance manufactures a promised sum for being in the program. What is more by now many, many, many consumers look for those yellow labels/information when buying a new appliance.
Sure we here may want washing machines or dishwashers that use more water or whatever, but what does the average American consumer say? Would such appliances of old sell in enough numbers to justify production?
I agree with the above, but also disagree as a lot is based on assumption.
First, yes, top loaders will be going away- but only because manufactures are compelling users to switch to front load via aversive conditioning. Lousy cleaning, cycle times equal to front loaders, tearing up clothes by agitating during the fill, rough impellers, lid locks, horrible rinsing, not being able to fill and load, ect, ect- all which will force users to switch to front load washers. In truth nothing stops manufactures from replicating the Maytag dual disk design, adding a recirculating pump to mimic resource saver rinsing, and DC breaking motor so the lid lock can be ditched, multi rinse and stain options... add a touch of longevity and top loaders will be very attractive once again.
Second- I do not pre-treat stains. Often I do not even sort. High end Speed Queens come with soak, prewash, second and even 3rd rinse. If I only choose once rinse, I do not have to come back for softer- just add and walk away.
Third- Many top load users are also busy folks. I am to; and my Speed Queen does not interfere.
Forth- you mention baby sitting. This simply untrue. There is nothing my Top load Speed Queen does that necessitates me watching over it during the 30 minute cycle.
First, yes, top loaders will be going away- but only because manufactures are compelling users to switch to front load via aversive conditioning. Lousy cleaning, cycle times equal to front loaders, tearing up clothes by agitating during the fill, rough impellers, lid locks, horrible rinsing, not being able to fill and load, ect, ect- all which will force users to switch to front load washers. In truth nothing stops manufactures from replicating the Maytag dual disk design, adding a recirculating pump to mimic resource saver rinsing, and DC breaking motor so the lid lock can be ditched, multi rinse and stain options... add a touch of longevity and top loaders will be very attractive once again.
Second- I do not pre-treat stains. Often I do not even sort. High end Speed Queens come with soak, prewash, second and even 3rd rinse. If I only choose once rinse, I do not have to come back for softer- just add and walk away.
Third- Many top load users are also busy folks. I am to; and my Speed Queen does not interfere.
Forth- you mention baby sitting. This simply untrue. There is nothing my Top load Speed Queen does that necessitates me watching over it during the 30 minute cycle.
I think we have some confusion here. These are standards that ALL manufacturers of washing machines MUST meet. EnergyStar appliances must be 25% MORE efficient than the minimum standards published above. Only those washers that meet the E Star standards are eligible for a government rebate.
Once again, the standards published above are MANDATORY for all washers. There is no "opting out."
Once again, the standards published above are MANDATORY for all washers. There is no "opting out."
jerrod6
Well-known member
No manufacturer is required to make a washer that meets or exceeds energy star requirements. They can make one that does not,they just won't get 100+ dollars back from the government for each machine. Right?
Manufactures opt in to the program for the machines they produce.
Manufactures opt in to the program for the machines they produce.
warmsecondrinse
Well-known member
Maybe my experience is unusual, but...
1. I've yet to see a twin tub that was not designed for Hobbits. i wonder if that's part of the reason the didn't persist. It wasn't until Yogi put one up on cinder blocks that I had any interest.
2. I ALWAYS put my clothes into a TL, added detergent, etc. and walked away. I never had to babysit a washer unless I was experimenting with some cycle or other. The only pre-treating I do is to dab a little detergent onto a stain... a couple times per year.
I think what modern consumers really want is to not have to THINK about laundry. They don't want to know anything about sorting, water temps, additives, etc. I agree they want a washer that behaves like a dishwasher, but the reason is that they don't want to think.
Beside, if clothes don't come out clean the first time, just wash them again. It'll be just like toilets that don't flush properly get flushed twice or dishes that come out dirty just stay in the dishwasher for a second cycle. This extra use of resources doesn't count in efficiency ratings, of course.....lol.
Jim
1. I've yet to see a twin tub that was not designed for Hobbits. i wonder if that's part of the reason the didn't persist. It wasn't until Yogi put one up on cinder blocks that I had any interest.
2. I ALWAYS put my clothes into a TL, added detergent, etc. and walked away. I never had to babysit a washer unless I was experimenting with some cycle or other. The only pre-treating I do is to dab a little detergent onto a stain... a couple times per year.
I think what modern consumers really want is to not have to THINK about laundry. They don't want to know anything about sorting, water temps, additives, etc. I agree they want a washer that behaves like a dishwasher, but the reason is that they don't want to think.
Beside, if clothes don't come out clean the first time, just wash them again. It'll be just like toilets that don't flush properly get flushed twice or dishes that come out dirty just stay in the dishwasher for a second cycle. This extra use of resources doesn't count in efficiency ratings, of course.....lol.
Jim
"No manufacturer is required to make a washer that meets or exceeds energy star requirements. They can make one that does not, they just won't get 100+ dollars back from the government for each machine. Right?
Manufactures opt into the program for the machines they produce."
I'll try this again. All washer manufacturers have to meet the minimum energy standards published above. Those that choose to make EnergyStar washers have to make machines that are 25% MORE efficient than the minimum energy standards that ALL manufacturers MUST meet. Making E Star appliances is totally voluntary, but the Gov. encourages it by providing rebates on machines that meet E Star Requirements.
Manufactures opt into the program for the machines they produce."
I'll try this again. All washer manufacturers have to meet the minimum energy standards published above. Those that choose to make EnergyStar washers have to make machines that are 25% MORE efficient than the minimum energy standards that ALL manufacturers MUST meet. Making E Star appliances is totally voluntary, but the Gov. encourages it by providing rebates on machines that meet E Star Requirements.
I would like people to please acknowledge the difference between "EnergyStar regulations are voluntary, the government just provides incentives (rebates, tax cuts, tax incentives etc) to each manufacturer that complies to those standards" and what some are saying here that the standards are mandatory.
I do not think that manufacturers have been conditioning customers to frontloaders "via aversive conditioning". That is ludicrous in and of itself, *particularly* if you have interacted with manufacturers, their distributors, sales people who echo back the "talking points" of their sales literature and, last, but not least, repairmen, who also repeat what manufacturers trained them to do/say. From at the very least 1950s to 1990's, *all* repairmen *consistently* repeated the cliche that frontloaders all leaked and tended to get the boot destroyed and leak. Even against actuary tables that showed that both toploaders and frontloaders had exactly the same chance of failure when it comes to leaks: first off, most leaks came from failing water valves, then failing water level control. And until mid-90's there were toploaders with a boot, it was just hidden under the outer tub instead of visible by a window.
What you have been complaining about is a disparate set: lousy cleaning makes me laugh, because for decades now, people who have compared Euro-style FLs to North American TLs have complained about how badly TLs clean. I just mentioned that people who came to my home to try out different kinds of washers before buying, with no pressure at all, just by trying the machines themselves, ended up buying a FL. Rough impellers, long washing times (equivalent to FLs) etc are just the manufactures trying to replicate what is *easy* to do with a FL in a TL because American people are essentially under the impression that FL are evil incarnate.
Ask Maytag (now WP) *why* they stopped making the "dual disk" design. Or why WP stopped making the Calypso design. They were both good HE designs, but they do not replicate a traditional toploader, so anybody that is married to the traditional TL design will reject it. They even refuse to adapt to the new design and change some habits, so of course, they bitch to the manufacturers, they hire lawyers and start class-action suits etc. People who *had* the machines and used them according to the design and instructions usually did well and liked them. The class of people you are trying to cater to, only wants a traditional agitator deep fill TL.
Several people here claim that they do not pre-treat stains.
Good for you!
But you are not the majority of the population, most of which *have* stains to deal with. And if you have no stains to contend with, by all means, just run the "quick" or "short" cycle on the new HE designs, it will clean just as well as any traditional TL used to.
Here's the deal: it takes *at least* 15 minutes for *current* enzymes to work at 140F to remove stains from clothes. It takes more than 30 minutes for the same enzymes to work at 110F. And most TL's, even the ones that *offer* a pre-wash cycle, usually mean manual prewash cycle -- you start it and have to come back to start the ordinary wash. Very few TLs had/have a dispenser to hold the wash detergent and actually do a prewash and automatically follow it with a wash cycle. Very few TL's had/have a wash cycle that will run for 15 minutes without wearing out the clothing.
As for babysitting, I will refer people to the recent post about a TL (I believe it to be a SQ) that is banging during spin. Also the many many posts here and elsewhere with people complaining about their TLs halting the cycle when they get unbalanced. Yes, I agree, you can't win: if you halt the cycle, people complain, if you let it bang people complain.
So, here are *two* things a lot of new FLs can do automatically and unattended: they can rebalance the load if necessary and the vast majority of them can sense oversudsing and add one or more rinses. *Some* TLs (all HE with impellers) can do both. I doubt that your TL SQ can do that, and if it can, it will take longer than 30 minutes, because each deep rinse adds more than 10 minutes to the cycle.
And let's be honest here. Even people who has used the same brand of detergent for the past 40 years *will* at some point, given how often manufacturers change formulas, need to provide extra-rinses for the cycle(s) they overdosed until they learn the new dosage, and if you are not nearby "babysitting" or the machine can't do that automatically, then you have poorly rinsed clothes. Most people don't care or notice. Some people have skin condition(s) that make it necessary to pay attention to such things.
The reason twin-tubs do not persist is because they are labor-intensive. You *do* finish sooner than any other method, *provided* that you are there the entire time, and that you don't mind rinsing in the spinner, which many people don't like. Also, even when you reuse the wash solution they still use a lot of water.
As for what Mark (mwb) is saying, do you have any references?
Because EnergyStar is *voluntary*. You take the machines the current market is selling, run the numbers and get an average, then any machines that are 25-35% more efficient get the EnergyStar stamp.
The EPA regulates an awful lot of things (including cars), but does not regulate washers.
The Federal Safety Standards regulate things like appliances electrical safety (3-prong plug, current leakage etc), and water safety (to avoid contaminated washer water back-syphoning into the fresh water supply), fire safety, among others, and even a *lot* of those standards are dealt with by UL (which is an arm of the Insurance Industry).
If what you people are complaining about were true, as opposed to manufacturers are doing what they think is best for them and their investors, you would not be seeing the dozens of "one-off" appliances for sale at Amazon: portable automatic TLs, twin-tubs etc.
Start asking questions when people come around with statements like "the government is *forcing* us to do this or that" -- more often than not, there is *no* law/regulation people can point you to, it's just that the manufacturers want to get more profit and that's the most convenient thing they can tell a client bitching to them to shut them up.
I will also tell you another "secret" -- y'know when you're in an airplane and ask for water or soda and the flight attendants tell you "I'll be right back" and then take 30 minutes to do it? They wish they could tell you to get lost because they are busy with sick people and other chores and they can't tell you that.
I do not think that manufacturers have been conditioning customers to frontloaders "via aversive conditioning". That is ludicrous in and of itself, *particularly* if you have interacted with manufacturers, their distributors, sales people who echo back the "talking points" of their sales literature and, last, but not least, repairmen, who also repeat what manufacturers trained them to do/say. From at the very least 1950s to 1990's, *all* repairmen *consistently* repeated the cliche that frontloaders all leaked and tended to get the boot destroyed and leak. Even against actuary tables that showed that both toploaders and frontloaders had exactly the same chance of failure when it comes to leaks: first off, most leaks came from failing water valves, then failing water level control. And until mid-90's there were toploaders with a boot, it was just hidden under the outer tub instead of visible by a window.
What you have been complaining about is a disparate set: lousy cleaning makes me laugh, because for decades now, people who have compared Euro-style FLs to North American TLs have complained about how badly TLs clean. I just mentioned that people who came to my home to try out different kinds of washers before buying, with no pressure at all, just by trying the machines themselves, ended up buying a FL. Rough impellers, long washing times (equivalent to FLs) etc are just the manufactures trying to replicate what is *easy* to do with a FL in a TL because American people are essentially under the impression that FL are evil incarnate.
Ask Maytag (now WP) *why* they stopped making the "dual disk" design. Or why WP stopped making the Calypso design. They were both good HE designs, but they do not replicate a traditional toploader, so anybody that is married to the traditional TL design will reject it. They even refuse to adapt to the new design and change some habits, so of course, they bitch to the manufacturers, they hire lawyers and start class-action suits etc. People who *had* the machines and used them according to the design and instructions usually did well and liked them. The class of people you are trying to cater to, only wants a traditional agitator deep fill TL.
Several people here claim that they do not pre-treat stains.
Good for you!
But you are not the majority of the population, most of which *have* stains to deal with. And if you have no stains to contend with, by all means, just run the "quick" or "short" cycle on the new HE designs, it will clean just as well as any traditional TL used to.
Here's the deal: it takes *at least* 15 minutes for *current* enzymes to work at 140F to remove stains from clothes. It takes more than 30 minutes for the same enzymes to work at 110F. And most TL's, even the ones that *offer* a pre-wash cycle, usually mean manual prewash cycle -- you start it and have to come back to start the ordinary wash. Very few TLs had/have a dispenser to hold the wash detergent and actually do a prewash and automatically follow it with a wash cycle. Very few TL's had/have a wash cycle that will run for 15 minutes without wearing out the clothing.
As for babysitting, I will refer people to the recent post about a TL (I believe it to be a SQ) that is banging during spin. Also the many many posts here and elsewhere with people complaining about their TLs halting the cycle when they get unbalanced. Yes, I agree, you can't win: if you halt the cycle, people complain, if you let it bang people complain.
So, here are *two* things a lot of new FLs can do automatically and unattended: they can rebalance the load if necessary and the vast majority of them can sense oversudsing and add one or more rinses. *Some* TLs (all HE with impellers) can do both. I doubt that your TL SQ can do that, and if it can, it will take longer than 30 minutes, because each deep rinse adds more than 10 minutes to the cycle.
And let's be honest here. Even people who has used the same brand of detergent for the past 40 years *will* at some point, given how often manufacturers change formulas, need to provide extra-rinses for the cycle(s) they overdosed until they learn the new dosage, and if you are not nearby "babysitting" or the machine can't do that automatically, then you have poorly rinsed clothes. Most people don't care or notice. Some people have skin condition(s) that make it necessary to pay attention to such things.
The reason twin-tubs do not persist is because they are labor-intensive. You *do* finish sooner than any other method, *provided* that you are there the entire time, and that you don't mind rinsing in the spinner, which many people don't like. Also, even when you reuse the wash solution they still use a lot of water.
As for what Mark (mwb) is saying, do you have any references?
Because EnergyStar is *voluntary*. You take the machines the current market is selling, run the numbers and get an average, then any machines that are 25-35% more efficient get the EnergyStar stamp.
The EPA regulates an awful lot of things (including cars), but does not regulate washers.
The Federal Safety Standards regulate things like appliances electrical safety (3-prong plug, current leakage etc), and water safety (to avoid contaminated washer water back-syphoning into the fresh water supply), fire safety, among others, and even a *lot* of those standards are dealt with by UL (which is an arm of the Insurance Industry).
If what you people are complaining about were true, as opposed to manufacturers are doing what they think is best for them and their investors, you would not be seeing the dozens of "one-off" appliances for sale at Amazon: portable automatic TLs, twin-tubs etc.
Start asking questions when people come around with statements like "the government is *forcing* us to do this or that" -- more often than not, there is *no* law/regulation people can point you to, it's just that the manufacturers want to get more profit and that's the most convenient thing they can tell a client bitching to them to shut them up.
I will also tell you another "secret" -- y'know when you're in an airplane and ask for water or soda and the flight attendants tell you "I'll be right back" and then take 30 minutes to do it? They wish they could tell you to get lost because they are busy with sick people and other chores and they can't tell you that.
My goodness, do I understand this well? On every Energy Star washer there is a 100+ dollar subsidy by the government? I mean commercial manufacturers of white goods take money from the government for every washer they bring on the market? How much money does that cost every year? Gives a whole new meaning to the word socialism! LOL
@earthling177
"I do not think that manufacturers have been conditioning customers to frontloaders 'via aversive conditioning'. That is ludicrous in and of itself,..."
Then tell me what reason a top loader has for agitating while its filling for a DEEP wash:
If this is about thoroughly saturating the clothes why not engage the splutch and gently pulse the whole basket like a Fisher & Paykel (and other washers) while filling? You can not tell me Whirlpool did this by mistake... The only thing that agitation is doing is wearing down the clothes. When a user is going through clothes like tissues, of course they will be compelled to switch to something a lot gentler.
"What you have been complaining about is a disparate set: lousy cleaning makes me laugh, because for decades now, people who have compared Euro-style FLs to North American TLs have complained about how badly TLs clean."
Euro washers clean better than most American front loads. Built in heaters mixed with 40 years of matured detergents and technology produces better results compared to something still under development that often lacks a heater.
"Rough impellers, long washing times (equivalent to FLs) etc are just the manufactures trying to replicate what is *easy* to do with a FL in a TL because American people are essentially under the impression that FL are evil incarnate."
True- if purely talking about low water impellers. But what about deep fill agitator top loaders that now take their time in doing absolutely everything? The very, very slow fills, long pauses, slow drains... whats the point? All it does is take traditional deep fill agitator system (that used to take 25-30 minutes) and stretch it to over an hour / hour and half.
When people find that their new traditional top loader shreds clothes and takes triple the time to do what their old washer they will be considering a FL- especially when the HE impeller still has a rough side.
"Ask Maytag (now WP) *why* they stopped making the "dual disk" design. Or why WP stopped making the Calypso design. They were both good HE designs, but they do not replicate a traditional toploader, so anybody that is married to the traditional TL design will reject it."
Calypso was far from good- it was a disaster in all regards. It tangled anything larger than a dish cloth, produced tremendous lint and cleaning varied. They also had service problems. I remember when they came out in Sears under Kenmore. The sales people were pushing them, and they had sales banners on them. Within months the sales people no longer uttered Calypso as the sales floor and back rooms were filling up with returns more than I have ever seen of any other appliance. People were willing to give HE a try- but Calypso was simply something that only look good on paper and only did well in a lab. Much like the first front loads in the US- they had problems today's machines do not.
As for the Maytag dual disk you would be correct, I do not know why they stopped, but my limited use in one was positive. It was not bad, and with more evolution I think it would have become a very good design.
"But you are not the majority of the population, most of which *have* stains to deal with. And if you have no stains to contend with, by all means, just run the "quick" or "short" cycle on the new HE designs, it will clean just as well as any traditional TL used to.
Here's the deal: it takes *at least* 15 minutes for *current* enzymes to work at 140F to remove stains from clothes. It takes more than 30 minutes for the same enzymes to work at 110F. And most TL's, even the ones that *offer* a pre-wash cycle, usually mean manual prewash cycle -- you start it and have to come back to start the ordinary wash. Very few TLs had/have a dispenser to hold the wash detergent and actually do a prewash and automatically follow it with a wash cycle. Very few TL's had/have a wash cycle that will run for 15 minutes without wearing out the clothing."
But there are deep water top loaders that did if one wanted to spend the money. As their are FLs which are very basic and do not offer prewash/soak/pretreat and machines that go all the way up to everything and then some.
"As for babysitting, I will refer people to the recent post about a TL (I believe it to be a SQ) that is banging during spin. Also the many many posts here and elsewhere with people complaining about their TLs halting the cycle when they get unbalanced. Yes, I agree, you can't win: if you halt the cycle, people complain, if you let it bang people complain."
Which is user error. If I decided to wash a single large pillow in a FL on high speed spin, would I not have problems?
"So, here are *two* things a lot of new FLs can do automatically and unattended: they can rebalance the load if necessary and the vast majority of them can sense oversudsing and add one or more rinses. *Some* TLs (all HE with impellers) can do both. I doubt that your TL SQ can do that, and if it can, it will take longer than 30 minutes, because each deep rinse adds more than 10 minutes to the cycle."
Both are user error. You can't fix the machine to fix the user. Sometimes its better the machine give signs forcing change then having a FL (or TL for that matter) spend more water and energy to pardon user ignorance.
I have been using TLs forever, and I rarely if ever have it go off balance. In fact the rare occasions it has, has been my fault. Setting the water on high while washing a few items, washing pillows and bath mats of varying sizes (one large several smalls) that will never balance well in a FL. BTW, FL, by their very nature are more likely to go of balance as the clothes take the drum in even proportions during ramp up is sometimes more probability than anything else. So yes FL need such a feature- or in the case of some commercial FL: sit and take it.
"And let's be honest here. Even people who has used the same brand of detergent for the past 40 years *will* at some point, given how often manufacturers change formulas, need to provide extra-rinses for the cycle(s) they overdosed until they learn the new dosage, and if you are not nearby "babysitting" or the machine can't do that automatically, then you have poorly rinsed clothes. Most people don't care or notice. Some people have skin condition(s) that make it necessary to pay attention to such things."
Your basically admitting that FL use more water without consumer knowledge to pardon customer mistakes. I don't think that is good. Again, its better to know, and no, that does not take any babysitting.
"I do not think that manufacturers have been conditioning customers to frontloaders 'via aversive conditioning'. That is ludicrous in and of itself,..."
Then tell me what reason a top loader has for agitating while its filling for a DEEP wash:
If this is about thoroughly saturating the clothes why not engage the splutch and gently pulse the whole basket like a Fisher & Paykel (and other washers) while filling? You can not tell me Whirlpool did this by mistake... The only thing that agitation is doing is wearing down the clothes. When a user is going through clothes like tissues, of course they will be compelled to switch to something a lot gentler.
"What you have been complaining about is a disparate set: lousy cleaning makes me laugh, because for decades now, people who have compared Euro-style FLs to North American TLs have complained about how badly TLs clean."
Euro washers clean better than most American front loads. Built in heaters mixed with 40 years of matured detergents and technology produces better results compared to something still under development that often lacks a heater.
"Rough impellers, long washing times (equivalent to FLs) etc are just the manufactures trying to replicate what is *easy* to do with a FL in a TL because American people are essentially under the impression that FL are evil incarnate."
True- if purely talking about low water impellers. But what about deep fill agitator top loaders that now take their time in doing absolutely everything? The very, very slow fills, long pauses, slow drains... whats the point? All it does is take traditional deep fill agitator system (that used to take 25-30 minutes) and stretch it to over an hour / hour and half.
When people find that their new traditional top loader shreds clothes and takes triple the time to do what their old washer they will be considering a FL- especially when the HE impeller still has a rough side.
"Ask Maytag (now WP) *why* they stopped making the "dual disk" design. Or why WP stopped making the Calypso design. They were both good HE designs, but they do not replicate a traditional toploader, so anybody that is married to the traditional TL design will reject it."
Calypso was far from good- it was a disaster in all regards. It tangled anything larger than a dish cloth, produced tremendous lint and cleaning varied. They also had service problems. I remember when they came out in Sears under Kenmore. The sales people were pushing them, and they had sales banners on them. Within months the sales people no longer uttered Calypso as the sales floor and back rooms were filling up with returns more than I have ever seen of any other appliance. People were willing to give HE a try- but Calypso was simply something that only look good on paper and only did well in a lab. Much like the first front loads in the US- they had problems today's machines do not.
As for the Maytag dual disk you would be correct, I do not know why they stopped, but my limited use in one was positive. It was not bad, and with more evolution I think it would have become a very good design.
"But you are not the majority of the population, most of which *have* stains to deal with. And if you have no stains to contend with, by all means, just run the "quick" or "short" cycle on the new HE designs, it will clean just as well as any traditional TL used to.
Here's the deal: it takes *at least* 15 minutes for *current* enzymes to work at 140F to remove stains from clothes. It takes more than 30 minutes for the same enzymes to work at 110F. And most TL's, even the ones that *offer* a pre-wash cycle, usually mean manual prewash cycle -- you start it and have to come back to start the ordinary wash. Very few TLs had/have a dispenser to hold the wash detergent and actually do a prewash and automatically follow it with a wash cycle. Very few TL's had/have a wash cycle that will run for 15 minutes without wearing out the clothing."
But there are deep water top loaders that did if one wanted to spend the money. As their are FLs which are very basic and do not offer prewash/soak/pretreat and machines that go all the way up to everything and then some.
"As for babysitting, I will refer people to the recent post about a TL (I believe it to be a SQ) that is banging during spin. Also the many many posts here and elsewhere with people complaining about their TLs halting the cycle when they get unbalanced. Yes, I agree, you can't win: if you halt the cycle, people complain, if you let it bang people complain."
Which is user error. If I decided to wash a single large pillow in a FL on high speed spin, would I not have problems?
"So, here are *two* things a lot of new FLs can do automatically and unattended: they can rebalance the load if necessary and the vast majority of them can sense oversudsing and add one or more rinses. *Some* TLs (all HE with impellers) can do both. I doubt that your TL SQ can do that, and if it can, it will take longer than 30 minutes, because each deep rinse adds more than 10 minutes to the cycle."
Both are user error. You can't fix the machine to fix the user. Sometimes its better the machine give signs forcing change then having a FL (or TL for that matter) spend more water and energy to pardon user ignorance.
I have been using TLs forever, and I rarely if ever have it go off balance. In fact the rare occasions it has, has been my fault. Setting the water on high while washing a few items, washing pillows and bath mats of varying sizes (one large several smalls) that will never balance well in a FL. BTW, FL, by their very nature are more likely to go of balance as the clothes take the drum in even proportions during ramp up is sometimes more probability than anything else. So yes FL need such a feature- or in the case of some commercial FL: sit and take it.
"And let's be honest here. Even people who has used the same brand of detergent for the past 40 years *will* at some point, given how often manufacturers change formulas, need to provide extra-rinses for the cycle(s) they overdosed until they learn the new dosage, and if you are not nearby "babysitting" or the machine can't do that automatically, then you have poorly rinsed clothes. Most people don't care or notice. Some people have skin condition(s) that make it necessary to pay attention to such things."
Your basically admitting that FL use more water without consumer knowledge to pardon customer mistakes. I don't think that is good. Again, its better to know, and no, that does not take any babysitting.
joeypete
Well-known member
Well truth of the matter is TL washers are still the preferred washer type in the US. FL's have become very popular, but most people still prefer a TL. So really the manufacturers are just responding to demand, which is what it's all about anyway. Because of regulations of course they've had to modify their designs to comply...and I think they are doing a pretty good job considering. Granted TL washers are a hell of a lot more "quirky" than they used to be, but they sell so I'm glad they are keeping up with modifications to make consumers happy.
Our current president wants to do away with anything environmental so all of these efforts might soon be for nothing anyway. Be interesting to see how the manufacturers respond.
Our current president wants to do away with anything environmental so all of these efforts might soon be for nothing anyway. Be interesting to see how the manufacturers respond.
All I can add is that in my area where I live, according to every single place I have visited looking for a washer there has been a big swing BACK to top loaders (including big box places like Best Buy, Lowe's and Home Depot, TOP LOADERS are the TOP SELLING type of washer in this area, and the stores reflect that with several isles of top load washer models, and only 1 aisle of front loaders. In addition I have been told by at least 5 places I have been too that they can't keep up with the demand for top load Speed Queen washers which shows so many still desire that type of machine, and I am not pushing Speed Queen here just making a statement. Several people in my family own HE top loaders, everyone is satisfied and I have not heard one person complain about wear and tear on clothes. Front loaders are fine for those who like them, but again most of the 'young' people I know who bought a front loader have now gone back to a top loader being unsatisfied, so again a matter of opinion. As long as the demand is there, manufacturers will produce. I personally find top load much easier to load and unload, and prefer it, but that is my opinion. The top loaders now are using much less water, and take about the same time or less than a front loader, so why should they 'go away'. US market is very different than Europe. We can project our thoughts here but the companies that manufacture will control what happens in the future. As for cleaning, my clothes are spanking clean with top load washer I have so there is no complaint from me there, and my clothes do not show any sign of 'wear and tear' from agitator (the only one I had that did that was the Sears 'shredmore' years ago). In closing, as I have stated before I actually called Speed Queen to ask about new models, and I heard directly from them that they are going to change their machines to meet standards, and will be doing away with the dial model, so what standard they are doing remains to be seen, I guess we will find out when they release the new models.
