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seeitrun2006

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Man I just saw in MSN the Dow lost -777 points due to the bail out plan not being approved. 2/3 democrats and 1/3 repulicans voted to approve the bill. I'm watching CNN now as I type this thread.

Man this is scary as hell!
 
Percentage wise, today's drop doesn't even register in the top ten. The market is simply trying to correct itself, if Bush would STFU and stop panicking people.

By the way, anyone following the price of oil lately? :-)
 
THis is not a market correction by any means. It's simply what happens when you introduce fear into the stock market. And it is a significant event, not to be ignored. It's sending a message....let's hope people are listening!
 
Andrew, did you see Donald Trump's interview on Neil Cavuto's show earlier today? He was saying the major portion of today's stock market is manipulated by an incredibly small handful of people.

And while he was talking, the DJIA dropped 300 points in 90 seconds. So I think Trump is correct. This much fluctuation in such a short amount of time is simply not possible unless:

1. A small number of extremely large transactions are taking place simultaneously, or

2. A slightly larger number of slightly smaller transactions are taking place simultaneously.

It was either major players manipulating the market, or every fund manager in the world standing by the "ENTER" keys on their keyboards at the same time.

He also made the point that energy costs since Bush took office represent the largest robbery in human history. I'd put it second to U.S. defense spending, but in any case Trump predicted oil costs would continue to plummet if Congress doesn't bite on Bush's panic bait.
 
You're right, Andrew. This is a very significant crisis in the market right now. Because of losses, credit is drying up. Not just the Visa card in your wallet, but lines of credit to businesses, student loans, mortgages, auto loans, etc. If left unchecked, this will have catastrophic effects on the economy. While Republican John McCain was blaming Obama for his inaction and stroking himself for solving it singlehandedly and House majority "leader" Boner was pointing the finger of blame at Nancy Pelousy, a line of credit to factories was being reduced that will force them to cut back on payroll, raw material order, etc. This is only example of what the ripple effects will be if this problem is not resolved very, very quickly. You can extend out the ripples to the entire economy. What's happening is that because of losses, credit is retracting and the only way to open that credit back up is by re-capitalizing or de-leveraging the market. This can be accomplished several ways. We had the Bush/Treasury Department scheme of buying up toxic loans from the institutions that would free up capital to restore lending/credit operations. We can re-capitalize the lenders by suspending the Mark-to-Market accounting rule (assigning current value to future assets) and we can also give a giant shot in the arm to those people whose mortgages are in jepoardy - i.e. direct public stimulus as we had earlier in the summer. If you read what most economists are saying, the situation is dire and action must be taken now.
 
Hmmmmm

Here's a video that you need to see. Watch it ALL the way through and take note of the FOX news report at the end of the video. Then, all you Dems out there, please comment. What's your excuse now??? Mark

 
Thanks Greg

I have followed your posts on all these bailout and political issues. We see eye to eye, but many times you have brought things to my attention that i missed, or did not quite understand. I wanted to thank YOU for your input. I appreciate you. forgive my spelling but Suzy Ormond, on cnn today stated that in her opinion it could be the year 2015 before the financial ground lost is regained. Now that scared me. arthur
 
...and as predicted, it's going global.

Asian markets are down, Aussie and NZ markets are down about 5% early Tuesday. Anyone who doubts that the actions we take and responsibilities we have to the entire planet and it's people are fooling themselves. Time to pull our collective heads out of the sand and realize that our government is operating on borrowed money and if the worldwide credit markets dry up, so does our ability to buy MRE's for troops in Iraq. It may sound simplistic, but that's how it tumbles down.

Many are opposed to a "bail-out" for Wall Street but the reality is that if we don't do something and fast, we will be in a very deep recession and possibly a depression greater than what we experienced in the 1920's & 1930's but this time, it will be global. The term "bailout" is really incorrect for what we need to do - the connotation of handout or giveaway to Wall Street is just dead wrong. What this proposal was trying to do was keep the credit flowing and a beginning attempt to fix a market that is broken. The stock markets are only an indicator of the global economic health - just like in 1929 - but this time, we don't have to let the problem go unchecked.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7643340.stm
 
Greg, after watching the video link listed above, you'll definitely want to watch a few of the other videos that appear in the 'related videos' column. Obama is to blame for EVERYTHING!! I had absolutely no idea he and those other colored people were such powerful, all-controlling figures during the 8 years of the Bush administration.

Viewing those videos reinforced what I've thought all along: Bush and Co. have been in control of NOTHING the past eight years; It's been black Democrats and Obama. It wasn't Cheney, Rove and Rumsfeld at the wheel, it was Obama and his posse of black Democrats! Why, all their shuckin' and jivin' must have put the Bush administration into a trance, so they couldn't govern properly. It all makes sense, now.
 
...and make no mistake about it folks....

....when the credit markets tighten as they have now, businesses, and people, are the ones with their heads on the chopping block. Those businesses often use those lines of credit to meet payrolls, buy raw goods for manufacturing, move products, etc., and without that borrowing power, they will go right down the toilet, along with many of those jobs. So if you all think government intervention is a horrible idea, let's see how you feel when it's your job that's flushed down the toilet because your employer lacks capital to fund operations. If the credit markets don't loosen soon, and equity markets stabilize, this will be one of the results.

At this point, we're past the bipartisan political bullshit that people like to fling, and we're talking about survival, as a nation, and as individuals. This crisis will drag global markets right down with it, leaving the Unites States, and the dollar, with zero credibility. Yes, I'm sure Ma and Pa Kettle will be sooooo happy that the price of oil drops in this process, but the long term ramifications are beyond most people's comprehension.
 
There are already reports of goods sitting on the docks becasue there isn't the credit/money to bring them to where they need to go.

I'm all for a more favorable balance-of-trade and reducing imports, but this is decidedly NOT the way to do it.
 
Greg

I see NO HUMOR at all in the video. The FOX news report was really quite eye opening. Why do you post without watching the entire vid first? It REALLY makes you look uninformed.....and quite frankly like ......well....a Democrat.
 
Yes - the Faux News report was eye opening. It almost felt subliminal when I was watching it - listening to John Gibson going on and on, I almost missed the blue footer indicating everything he was saying was COMMENTARY.

A quick check of his Wiki page certainly shows the guy has little class in presenting any news.

We can continue to bicker about who's fault it is for what, at some point, we as a nation need to understand that WE all dropped the ball, and that We as a Nation need to take responsibility with what power we have left to hopefully fix this dire state our economy is in. Until we can get past that, very little will happen while families will begin to go hungry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gibson_(media_host)
 
might be commentary...

...but it was backed up by FACTS. What's really so sad is that so many people, many first time homeowners, lost their homes. They will most likely NEVER be able to own their own home again. That's the saddest part of this whole mess. It was a good thought, but in it's implementation, all of the loan requirements were relaxed, and thus disaster. These people COULD have been put in homes they COULD have afforded IF the requirements would have been more stringent. The prospective homeowner would have been able to afford a $45,000.00 home but NOT a $100,000.00 home. By the way, the CEO of Fannie May is now an ''advisor'' to Obama. God help us all.
 
306571

Well Mark, I brought this up essentially when I finally unloaded on another thread, but all poo pooed me because I pointed out it was greed and relaxed credit and allowed people to buy far more than they should have ever been allowed to buy. Sure, I would have loved to have been ablle to afford more house when I moved here 22 years ago, especially considering I had to take a step down in housing because of price difference between here & Houston, but I accepted gladly what I culd afford and it hurt for many years. And yes it is sad some will never be able to buy a house again, but then again, some should have never been allowed to buy in the first place.
 
Mark,

I'm still trying to get John Gibson out of my mind after Heath Ledgers death. After that little bit of journalism, everything he says in my opinion is suspect.

This financial mess is everyones problem, Republican or Democrat. Maybe we could better afford this bail out if Bush kept us out of his daddies war.
 
Mark, I appreciate your input and get a sense that you do honestly care for those who got wrapped up in an unfortunate situation; whether it be not fully understanding the consequences to them putting a signature on those horrible notes, or desperation. I'm leaning more towards both.

I do have a good sense of what a commentary is, whether it having been from John Gibson or Keith Olbermann. Taking facts, or half truths, and making a point to praise or criticize. I'm not out to change people's minds, and I don't believe you are either.

I think that everyone here is trying to digest what a tragedy today was, what a tragedy last week was - what the future holds for everyone who has a stake. If we want our thoughts, our emotions, our passions around these topics to be heard - the best action we will get is to voice that to our elected representatives of our state and federal Senators and House Representatives. If we don't like what they are voting for, or stand for, we let them know by writing them, or - with that wonderful power our government has been based around - our vote. This is what will speak the loudest, and I appreciate hearing what everyone on the other side is saying and feeling. It is nice to get a larger perspective of the whole world, even if I don't always agree.

Ben
 
Right on the money, Bob.....

I would think all those folks who have used credit responsibly would resent the hell out of having to bail irresponsible homeowners out of their debts. And remember, these are not JUST sub-prime borrowers. They're also people with good credit who bought way more than they can rightfully afford, with bad loan products and limited resources. If I look at the credit requirements that were in effect when I bought my house 9 years ago, I should have been able to buy 4 or 5 times the house I bought. But to me, that was just plain irresponsible and stretching my budget. Not to mention, all the dopes out there that did this with adjustable rate mortgages with ridiculous teaser rates. ARMs should be flat out banned. You can't make an informed decision on a "what if" three years down the road. Most people's crystal balls don't read out that far!! Go back to conventional lending, require down payments, or suitable mortgage insurance protection that is priced to actually reflect the risk. Can't afford that? Then rent.
 
Travis

I never cease to be amazed that the Government ALWAYS has to bail out private business. (and is expected to) (the war is another issue) I would love, just once, to see the government keep it's nose out of PRIVATE business AND PRIVATE lives. If the government DIDN'T always come to the rescue, American business would change VERY quickly...and would not be able to DICTATE to private business, who could ''qualify'' for loans, that they OBVIOUSLY couldn't afford. Does ANYONE follow me here? Mark
 
A $45,000 home, not a $100,000 home . . .

Ultimately, this is the crux of the problem, and it's something that neither party spends much time on: the average American just can't make enough money to buy a home, save for retirement, and live a reasonable life. Where does one find a $100,000 home, let alone a $45,000 one? Sure, there may be a few in the middle of depressed rural areas, but there aren't many job opportunities there either. For a generation this problem has been masked by two-earner families becoming the norm, what with increased housing and living costs being offset by the second income. Costs have continued to increase and once both adults in a family work there is no way to continue to compensate. All of those exotic mortgages were popular for a simple reason, to allow average people to afford what their parents were able to afford.

The average American isn't better off than he was thirty years ago - the wealthy class has become wealthier, while the middle class has lost ground. The Bush administraton's loose fiscal policies and chronic overspending allowed the whole mortgage mess to come to a colossal implosion which now requires government intervention just to save our economy, but even after that the underlying problems need to be addressed.

Before I'm labeled a super-liberal who wants government to bail out everyone let me note that I'm very opposed to allowing judges to write down mortgages. Ultimately there must be some personal responsibility in this mess, but it's a damned shame that two hard working people often have to resort to trick mortgages and spend half their combined incomes to buy a house in a safe neighborhood that's not two hours from their jobs. The real problem isn't housing prices, it's income stagnation.
 
And to clarify...

Not everyone is losing their home due to irresponsibility. I just left the Army after several years of service both for physical and mental reasons. I never had trouble paying my condo mortgage. What I am still struggling with is the fact that I can't sell it. I have dotted my i's and crossed my t's following professional advise and working with my bank to NOT be foreclosed on. I now make less than half what I used to make because of such a poor job market. Since I started my new job almost 3 months ago I have learned what the bulk of the evils are:

1. A lot of people are taking paycuts due to a failing economy. It's been failing slowly but surely for years now while we are constantly "reassured" that everything is ok.

2. People are greedy. They take money with no intentions of paying it back. "My house is worth half of what it used to be. Why should I have to pay for it now?" I hear that a lot at work. Pathetic.

3. Rising living expenses. I'm not just talking about fuel. I'm talking about EVERYTHING. A lot of people I talk to on a daily basis are now having to make the choice between eating or paying a bill. Hmm...I guess I'd have to eat. Goes back to that failing economy thing again.

How did I play out in all of this? Not so well. My condo purchase was guaranteed to be an excellent investment back when i bought it. I sank tons of money into remodeling it to increase its value. Now it's worth half what it was when I bought it unremodeled and I can't afford to rent it out.

I just got an offer a month ago to short sale it to someone who is willing to pay $150,000 cash. HSBC said no. They'd rather sue me for the full balance even though I have no assets or money. What does that mean for me? That means foreclosure and possibly filing bankruptcy so I don't get sued.

Was I wrong? Was my lender wrong? Due I see it coming? No. No. No. I have to chalk it up to pure circumstance and misfortune for this first-time homebuyer.

I guess my point is that every foreclosure or financial failure is due to someone making knowingly poor choices. Some of us are getting taken down at no fault of our own and there's nothing we can do about it. I never dreamed I'd be going through this in my lifetime and it scares me to death. All we can do is take it one day at a time I guess.

I can assure all of you of one thing. No Republican and no Democrat is ever going to really care what happens to someone like me. This government is not ever going to willingly help out its average citizens who truely are in need before it helps out one of its "buddies".

I honestly don't care who is president next. It's not going to matter to me one bit because NEITHER are going to do anything. It's so far gone now that they couldn't if they tried. You all can blame whoever you want. It just doesn't matter now. I just hope I have a roof over my head, a plate of food, and someone to grow old with when it's all said and done.

Thanks for reading.

Jon
 
Mark,

I agree with you that government shouldn't dictate who qualifies for loans. As to the question about why government can't stay out of private business...why should it, it's all wrapped up in gay marriage, abortion, etc.

I can't say that I'm thrilled with either party, but I feel the Democratic party wants me dead less.
 
> At this point, we're past the bipartisan political bullshit that people like to fling, and we're talking about survival, as a nation, and as individuals. <

Puh-leeze. We've been running $700 billion annual trade deficits -- JUST WITH CHINA. Where was this great crisis before George W. Bush decided to start panicking people? Why are so many of us falling for alarmist bullshit coming from an outgoing lame duck president??

The fact is, our GDP is still the largest of any country on Earth. The fact is, our nation is still the envy of most of the world. The fact is, our nation survived the Great Depression, and it would survive a depression of far greater proportions.

What wouldn't survive is that which shouldn't survive: this "supply-side" nonsense we've been dealing with since 1980, the selling out of our workforce, manufacturing and industrial bases by multinational corporations with no allegiance whatsoever to our country, our corrupt two-party political system, a president and Congress who represent corporate interests exclusive of everything else. Etc.

Hardship? Yeah. But I'm not aware of a single documented case of an American starving to death during the Great Depression.
 
I did watch the entire video and the silly Fox report afterward. Taken out of context, with the general populous' propensity to believe everything they see on the TV machine, plus the lack of intellectual curiosity, I fully understand why many would see this and be inflamed by what amounts to only a tiny portion of the truth. It does nothing to solve the problem and only forces people to take sides in a debate that is a no-win for either position. What did you expect to gain from bringing this to the center of a discussion that had nothing to do with blame?

We should all be somewhat thankful that we have a congress with an opposition majority, however thin it may be, and that it is also an election year in which many in congress are up for re-election. Imagine if this had happened three years ago with the go-along congress of the first six years of Bush's term. The deal would be done and it would be over. If recent history is any indication, it would amount to little more than a band-aid on the economy and pushed down the road for the next president to deal with. (that's already a long list) Perhaps now, our congressional leaders can get back to work and find a real solution. We, and they, don't really have much choice.
 

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