A question for those who use their vintage dishwashers daily.

[polkanut]

I'm curious to know how the new non-phosphated dishwasher detergents are working in the older machines with shorter wash cycles. Or, are you guys only using phosphated detergents in those machines. The reason for my question being that I found 4 boxes of Cascade (2.1lbs) at a small neighborhood grocer here in town, and each box has 6.4% phosphorus. [this post was last edited: 2/14/2011-15:30]

 

[turquoisedude]

So far, no really noticible difference.. I do tend to be a fuss-budget about scraping excess food from dishes (but I don't pre-rinse anymore - gasp!) but things seem to be coming out reasonably well despite overall shorter cycles. I guess the continuously heated water in the GE's really helps here!

 

[tomturbomatic]

The thorough rinsing of the older machines helps also.

 

[rollermatic]

i almost always put a switch

on any of mine that i use regularily. this switch lets me turn off the timer motor and extend wash or rinse time to whatever i want. if they still aren't clean i run it again!

 

[toploader55]

So Far So Good

I always use the Full Cycle or if Heavy Soil, Soak and Scrub or Pots and Pans.

I also clear the line of Cold Water before starting the Cycle and Fill Both Detergent Cups.

If the Load is Soiled and Dried on, I add 1/2 tsp of STPP to each cup. But even without the STPP I have 99% sucess rate all the time.

 

[qsd-dan]

I add 1/2 tsp of STPP to each cup. But even without the STPP I have 99% sucess rate all the time.

X2.

I think it's a combination of larger quantities of water coupled with larger soap dispenser cups that older machines use is what really helps make the transition near seamless. However, most of the replies thus far are from Hobart Kitchenaid users, so one must take that into consideration

 

[polkanut]

Yes, it would be intersting to hear from more GE, Whirlpool, Hotpoint, Maytag etc. users.

 

[rp2813]

Non-phosphated was a complete disaster with the Thermador THD 3600.

 

I have not yet tried it with the ISE Classic Supreme.  I have a lot of phosphated Cascade stockpiled.

 

Water here is super hard.  I think that's a big contributing factor.

 

 

 

[bajaespuma]

Go NaOH!

Now that Cascade Gel, Liquid, whatever has reintroduced Sodium Hydroxide into their formula, it must work like the old Dishwasher All, Calgonite and Electrasol used to. Someone here on the site pointed out, about a year ago, that the wash/rinse intervals on the old machines, like on my beloved GE pull-outs were shorter than on cycles today. Back then before the county became "energy conscious"those machines ran on water that was already hotter from the pipes and most of them had the heating coils on during the wash cycle to maintain a high temperature. I remember that when you ran the clothes washer on HOT, billows of steam would gush out from under that lid so I'm assuming our hot water heater was set to fairly high. Apparently the lye in the detergents back then worked best in those conditions, hot and fast. 

 

Hard for me to tell because where I live the water is very soft so I don't see a lot of difference between detergents.

 

[combo52]

PROSAPATE FREE DW DETERGENTS

The most important question one needs to consider when asking how well the new PF detergents work is how hard is your water. The PFDs auctually work pretty well in soft water, they also work better if the dish load contains sugars { natural water snoftner ] and or acids like orange or tomato in the load can also help the overall cleaning. In hard water situations the new low water use machines may have an advantage as they have less hard water to deal with and have very long cycles with plenty of water heating. [ on the new low water use long cycle machines it doesn't make much difference if you run the hot water before starting the machine as the water in the water line for the later fills will be stone cold anyway by the time the machine calls for more water].

 

I do still perfer the older higher water use machines as the newer low water use European style machines just don't flush away large amounts of food soil and I maintain that you use more water pre-rinsing the dishes by hand and messing up the sink and clogging the sink drain than letting an older style machine just do the hole job. { A DW will mix the food soils so well with water and detergent that they don't have a chance to clog your drains ]. 

 

[1972lkdishwash]

Phosphate free..Daily Driver KA 1982..Not yet with US....

We STILL HAVE available dishwasher detergent with Phosphate...I searched very hard and found it in a small grocer on the East side of the city, in Wheeling, Neely's Grocery...It is made by Powerhouse, not more than 8 percent....on the side of the box.... When I used the new formulas...left horrible WHITE FILM EVERYWHERE....had to add tablespoon of STPP to each det.cup to balance OUT, and this stopped the white film somewhat...what a MESS AT FIRST!!! Our Ka Superba Sani-Cycle 1982, THE daily driver, ONCE a DAY.

 

[varicyclevoice]

I have a KDS-16 Superba

I found that when I used the non-phosphate detergent that I had the white powdery residue on my dishes. I bought about 10 boxes of the phosphate detergent to have on hand.

Along with the newer phosphate-free detergent, I add about a tablespoon of the "Finish Glass Magic" hard water booster powder which has some 20 percent phosphates in it and then I'm fine.

What I don't understand is that dishwashers have been around for over 50 years and people had been using phosphates all that time and the water is fine....I don't know how the government expects people to have residue on their dishes.

What are the restaurants doing? Do they use phosphates?????? They couldn't serve food on dishware that has that residue on it.

 

[launderess]

Yes, Dishwashers Have Been Around

But as with washing machines, as cost went down, more and more homes got them.

Even in NYC where many multi-family buildings restrict washing machines, there usually are dishwashers.

Many who didn't grow up with dishwashers, say in the 1960's or 1970's may consider them a comfort, but to those setting up household from about the 1980's onwards an automatic dishwasher is standard required equipment. Cannot remember the last time one saw a new house or apartment for rent or sale that did not have a dw installed.

What is interesting is many families are much smaller than generations ago. I mean with pepole either not having children, just one child, living alone or childless couples, so on balance there probably isn't a need for *every* one to have a dw. Well unless one entertains quite allot.

 

[tomturbomatic]

What are restaurants doing?

Commercial kitchens got themselves exempted from the stupid ruling so if you can find a restaurant supply business and can buy a case at a time, you can still buy phosphated dishwasher detergent. You could probably sell boxes to friends. It's probably cheaper to use STPP to supplement store-bought detergent where you can find sales and use coupons.

Actually, in many places, the water is not fine, but the powerful agricultural lobbies could not be forced to control the amount of manure or fertilizer run-off that enters streams and other bodies of water and financially suffering municipalities could not rebuild sewer systems that flush raw sewage past waste treatment plants during heavy rains (there's lots of phosphorous in human waste, just like animal waste). Regulators had to find something symbolic to do and banning phosphates in dishwasher detergents was an easy action to take on the part of stupid politicians and hysterical environmentalists.

Dishwashers have been around longer than 50 years although by the mid 50s, sales began to take off when the advances in machine design and cycling as well as in low sudsing surfactants, needed in dishwasher detergents, improved the machines' performance.

 

[polkanut]

To add to what Launderess said, when my great-aunt & uncle moved back to Wausau from Milwaukee in 1988-89 they had a new house built. They specified to the contractor that they did not want a dw built-in. Well, the contractor and his carpenters were just flabbergasted that someone building a new home would "not" want a dw. Aunt Bertie was of the mindset that they were water & energy wasters, and that she could do the job better by hand. Plus, she would use the rinse water to water her houseplants. She also left the new Kenmore washer and dryer sit unused for about 5 years because she was still using her Speed Queen wringer, and line drying everything in the basement or outside.

 

[combo52]

DISHWASHERS AND TIME SAVING

Even though there are just two of us here I cook dinner every night and find the dishwasher saves me at least 1/2 hour of time every day. The DW cleans the dishes better than I could easily do if doing them by hand and uses less water doing it. Who wouldn't like having an extra 1/2 of time per day? if I had to I would spend in the area $ 10,000 to $15,000 dollars to have a DW in my life for the time savings alone.

 

[gmmcnair]

If I Had a Good Place for a Built In....

...I would probably use the dishwasher more. But I really don't, since the former owners remodeled in 2001 WITHOUT a dishwasher. The cabinets would have to be redone in a serious way, since the one place one would fit would block traffic flow.

I grew up in the 1970s, so I guess I'm one of those folks who think the dishwasher is a luxury. I use my 18 inch portable at holidays, and when I have company, but otherwise I use two dishpans, some Ajax dish liquid, and a Rubbermaid drainer. I wash as I go while cooking, so I'm out of the kitchen in about 10 minutes.

 

[launderess]

Commercial Dishwasher Detergents

At least here in NYS also are mandated by law to be phosphate free. Only difference is that while the ban on domestic product took effect last year, commercial products have a bit longer to comply. IIRC, the ban takes place this year or next.

Same thing happened with commercial laundry products in NYS as well. For a long time they were exempt from the phosphate ban involving domestic products, then several years ago the state included them as well. If you look at Ecolab and other commercial laundry product suppliers that still have STPP laden products, you'll see certain detergents cannot be sold in New York and other states with such bans.

It really does not matter about which state does or does not ban phoshates anymore. Detergent makers have long begun to centralise production of product to one or a few plants, rather than many scattered across the country catering to special regions. So in the end in order to save costs it is easier to simply produce phosphate free versions across the board.

Now years ago this wasn't true. Many of use can remember when detergent packets had the words ".... this product contains "X" or "trace" amount of phosphates resulting from production....". This simply meant that while "phosphate free", there were always going to be some containers (probably the first off the line after switching production between versions), that contained STPP "residue".

 

[Unimatic1140]

Fred and I stocked up on phosphated DW detergent for months before the ban started, we must have at least a two year supply. At Rainbow Foods one of our local grocery chains we found three more packages of phosphate Cascade Action-Pacs this past weekend!  We thought we cleaned the store out months again and then suddenly more packages show up on the shelf mixed in with the newer stuff so keep checking those shelves at your grocery stores.