A712 maytag won't spin

[spin-cycle]

Hello All.
First post here, reading a bit, seems like a suitable and interesting pursuit for me after next house move, Will need more space for this hobby for sure.

I am attached to my original to me A712 Maytag washer new to me from right around 1988 or so. I really want to keep it, hopefully so it out lasts me!
But there is an issue...First the good news it agitates with no problem.
Sorry for the longer post, trying to offer the what seem to be needed pieces of info to be specific enough about the issue.

It recently developed an issue. It started out as tub with clothing and wash water would trip the thermal protector in the motor when it tried to get the spin cycle started. Got some guidance from a friend in a distant city and ended up swapping the clock mechanism on the control panel, and the motor (but not at the same exact time) as that is what the trouble shooting flow chart started called for, so I am told. Pulled the motor (2 speed 1/3 hp), and no load testing it seems to do exactly what it is supposed to do when doing this simple test, forward and reverse fine. Got second motor (1 speed 1/2 hp) and figured out the wiring so it works on a regular wash cycle. I believe the slower speed is used for "delicate" cycle, so no loss to me, in all the time owned never used that cycle.

Same problem will get only a few seconds into the spin cycle and the thermal protector in the motor does it's protection thing and stops everything.

I looked in to bearings next thinking I may be going in the wrong direction on the electrical side. I checked out the small bearing above the belt driven pulley directly under the brake assembly, it seems in good shape, repacked or should I say added some new grease. Then the fun began to get to the 62mm diameter spin bearing above the brake assembly. I am in a bit of a cramped work space so I have do it where is, can't tip machine back and I do not have the special brake tool to make life easy, but got the brake assembly off, pulled the shield on the bearing, it looked and felt good, and added grease, as a test to see if that helped, not really, Replaced bearing with new exact model that was there, NTN brand. No change.

What appears to be aluminum sleeve under the tub seal shows it will readily move when I lightly used a long screwdriver as a probe, so I figure it is not seized or corroded in place, no sign of tub leakage ever in all the years.

So I am scratching my head to see what to do next.

I did try this, small load of 6 cotton T-shirts, using near the minimum setting for water. As expected, agitates fine, enter spin cycle - will not spin as above. So I tried to reduce the load the machine has to get spinning, removed the T-shirts squeezing the water out, (did not get to where I was real aggressive on this as I do want to wear these T-shirts...), then manually removed all the water I can possibly get out of the wash tub. Evenly distribute the 6 now still fairly wet T-shirts and see if it will complete the spin cycle. The machine did spin with this tiny load with the reduction in weight by removing the water. In further testing it seems that getting even this tiny sized load to finish spin calls for a large current - enough to trip a sensitive 15 amp breaker on a surge protector this was plugged into. With a tiny load, manually drained, the machine draws high current but for a brief enough period of time the 10-12 seconds or so and the the current comes down as the little bit of water in the tub, mostly in the t-shirts, is spun out, and by then the tub is up to the spin rotation speed and the current is much lower all the way to the end of the cycle.

I truly appreciate any comments, particularly from those ho have been here and solved it. This is a challenge I do need help with.
Thanks in advance for the assistance.

 

[eronie]

Does it have the correct drive belt?
Must use clutching drive belt.

 

[combo52]

Sounds like a belt problem

As mentioned in the last post, be sure you have a correct official Maytag belt for the main drive belt, make sure there’s no grease on the pulley clean all the pulleys thoroughly if there’s any oil or grease on them. Make sure the motor assembly moves easily in and out, make sure the washer is not being operated on an extension cord. If These things fail to help. Add a start capacitor to start winding, Maytags often have trouble starting in the spin cycle because the motor has to get up to speed instantly, but the belt has to slip as the machine empties the water as the tub starts spinning.

John

 

[spin-cycle]

Appreciate the response...
Both drive belts are the original belts. They are in fine condition. I expected the belts to be in sad shape, (I am used to vehicle belts), these belts don't have to deal with wide ranging temps, among other differences. I am not familiar with a clutching drive belt.

 

[spin-cycle]

John thanks for the assist..
The belts still have the original Maytag markings and are the part numbers called for from the resources (several) I have sought out. Pulleys and belts are clean and dry.

The 2 parts of the motor assembly that slides in relation to each other moves smoothly in both directions, (the grease looks and feels like a silicone grease used for disc brake caliper slider pins on cars to my senses). I am wondering if there is some viable way these 2 parts of the motor assembly could be in some orientation that is incorrect and still fit in the washer? I did remove this assembly when swapping motors. I looked into this. The lower part of the motor assembly that is directly attached to the machine base plate has 4 short threaded inserts and has 4 nuts holding this in place from the underside of the machine base plate. The other part of the motor assembly has only holes for the threaded studs that are part of the motor, attached with nuts also. 2 springs appear to have no issues, not stretched or miss-shaped in any way. If anyone know if this can be miss assembled I am interested to hear the details. I may have missed something here.

I hear what you are saying about the motor start capacitor. From what I can determine from the bits and pieces of info I can find is that this machine model when made to be powered on 60 hertz never had motor start capacitor on day one from the factory, and has functioned for years of service without one, seems odd to me, and I am not a motor expert in any way, that suddenly a motor start capacitor is needed, by the way from what I can tell the A712 model made for 50 hertz is produced with a motor start capacitor. Any bad effects from adding a motor start capacitor to a motor that never had one?

I think you have pushed me on new track to look into. You point out the belt has to slip as the machine empties the water as the tub starts spinning and also the motor comes up to it's rotation speed in a fraction of a second. My observation of the tub with a small load of 6 t-shirts and a minimal water lever is that it takes 15-25 seconds to reach the full spin speed.

Allow me to review the belts situation on the pulleys. Maybe I have something wrong there?
Starting with belts off the machine, the heavier belt (larger cross section) goes on first, it is on the motor pulley (which has 2 grooves) on the upper groove, closest to the electric motor. This upper groove is the larger diameter of the two grooves.
The heavier belt also is on the largest diameter pulley in the machine directly under the brake assembly.
This leaves the second lighter weight belt (smaller cross section) which goes on second on the remaining, smaller groove of pulley attached to the motor and on the small pump pulley.

I wonder if I got the two belts on the wrong groves of the motor pulley? I need to look into this. Comments regarding the belts most welcome.

I am trying to not loose sight of the fact the machine presented with a problem out of the blue, with no one having touched anything since it left the factory.
Could I have had enough of a friction issue in the bearings, which when resolved by replacing the spin bearing and adding some grease to the other smaller bearing, then returning the belts to the machine but not in the correct positions on the pulley with two grooves have introduced a new problem that has a similar symptom (thermal motor protector is opening)? Can anyone offer any insight on the belt arrangement?

Thanks for the suggestions With your collective help the solution will be soon at hand, ideas welcome.

 

[good-shepherd]

First thing I would have done

Is lean the machine back and try turning inner the tub by rotating the pulley (one direction to agitate the other to spin).

This would eliminate a seized tub bearing or a piece of clothing tube jammed between the inner and outer tubs.

 

[spin-cycle]

Rotation of the largest pulley (directly under the tub) in both directions is done with minimal effort. I get no resistance to movement other than the mass involved.
Rotation is smooth with no variation.

When turning in one direction the counter weight and transmission rotate as the do when in the spin cycle, which seems normal to me. When turning the largest pulley in the other direction the counter weight and transmission stay where they are as I believe is correct as the pulley rotation is used to drive the gears in the transmission to get the agitation movement. This confirms to me the brake is working as designed.

If I missed something I need to hear it.

 

[qsd-dan]

Sounds like the transmission, radial bearing, and tub bearing are fine. Generally the tub bearing will be noisy during the spin cycle before it seizes up.

Try spinning the water pump pulley with the belt off. It should rotate easily with no rough spots.

Other than that, a small item of clothing might have gone over the inner tub jammed itself between the tubs, like a sock.

 

[swestoyz]

Dan’s suggestions are the next logical check. The pump pulley should turn freely in both directions.

If the transmission and tub assembly rotated with ease once you released the brake, I’d be surprised if something was jammed between the tubs.

A restriction at the pump could also cause issues. So, even if something isn’t wedged between the tubs it could be interfering with the pump itself. Rare for something to get that far, but it can happen.

Does the motor glide assembly move with ease? Rollers/glides intact? Any glazing on the drive pulley?

Your detailed analysis and diagnostics so far is quite helpful on this side of our keyboards.

Ben[this post was last edited: 8/6/2024-23:01]

 

[spin-cycle]

Dan, I am more hopeful with your comments, I am in a tight space and getting to either the tub bearing or transmission would be a challenge to put it mildly.

The 62mm diameter bearing (above the, brake assembly), was something I replaced with a new identical model to the original. I think this is what you are referring to as the radial bearing. The old one had a rattle, grease was partially consumed over the years but when in hand it still rotated smoothly, of course there was no load on the bearing when in hand.

The water pump pulley was checked early on, I should have mentioned it, does rotate easily and smoothly, with no suspect areas.

Over the years never has a anything "gone missing" like a sock, when that seemed to be that case, it was always found in a shirt sleeve or pant leg.

photos and a question coming soon...

 

[spin-cycle]

Ben,
I am glad to hear your comments, pump is nice, I do recall now removing the upper cover on the outer tub to see if I could spot anything between the inner and outer tubs vertical walls. I did not recall seeing any issues, can't recall if I was rather limited in what I could see related to access or shape considerations.

Motor glide assembly - I am suspicious of what is possibly my very own mess up on this. More about that in my next post. To the points you raise, the glides are intact (square shape) lubricated, and when I had the motor glide assembly out with both springs off, I found it to move smoothly, of course that is a no load situation.

Thanks for your comment on the level of detail I am including, I have had my share of remote diagnosis (some times where the party I am trying to assist has limited descriptions) and have concluded detailed info - enough for those offering to assist to get a "minds eye" view can only be helpful, not only to this situation but to anyone who, at some future date, refers to this thread for their needs.

 

[spin-cycle]

I have a photo of my motor glide assembly (for those curious the motor model is a 2-1666-13, a 1/3 hp, 2 speed). The photo is, of course, from the front of the machine.

My concern is: do I have my motor glide assembly installed in the correct orientation?

Some details for you to consider prior to answering..... I believe the 12 series (mine is an A712) has what it referred to as a "revised motor glide assembly" best I can tell the upper and lower parts of the motor glide assembly have be revised so they can be in the opposite arrangement. The original "top" has been changed to be on the "bottom". From my limited info this is different on the other model in the line up in that era. Wish I had more details, point is there is a difference in the related models.

Adding to my concern, and I did try reversing the motor glide assembly orientation from this photo in the machine and promptly concluded before trying to run the machine "that can't be right" and put it back to the position in the photo.

The position motor glide assembly is in now with the original factory belts and pulleys (earlier it was asked if the belts were glazed, they do look good), allows the motor glide assembly to have a very limited range of travel, max 1/8" possibly closer to 1/16". The result appears to be very limited slip is possible when entering the spin cycle. I expect this is contributing to or is it self the cause of the high current draw and motor thermal protector being activated.

When the motor glide assembly was briefly in the opposite position from my photo, it struck me that the springs were pulling the motor towards the rotation axis of the tub, I expect that was going limit power transfer from the motor. Result was, what looked to me, to be a particularly loose or sloppy fit of the heavier cross section belt on it's pulleys. My thinking was this would not work well or at all as the motor would run with a belt on so loose the tub axis pulley would not turn, and the belt would end up becoming glazed.

Can anyone offer what the proper distance the travel of the motor glide assembly with the belts on should be ? Sure springs will resist that movement.

Also with the belts off and the springs on, what direction are the springs moving the motor glide assembly? I expect away from the tub rotation axis so as to allow the belt and pulleys have some grip.

If possible, data from an A712 model, if that specific model not available kindly mention the machine model you are referring to.

Right now my arrangement is pulling the motor glide assembly away from the tub rotation axis but has limited travel.

 

[qsd-dan]

Is the lower motor carriage attached to the base with 4 tiny screws in a square pattern arrangement?

All of the 12 series machines I've come across have the newer style motor carriage and base arrangement that's attached with one screw up front and 2 screws at the rear of the lower motor carriage.

It appears you may have the older style base and motor carriage arrangement (or some weird in-between hybrid arrangement). If this is the case, you have the motor carriage arranged incorrectly.

The motor carriage should slide forward towards the transmission (spring pressure should increase as the motor carriage is pushed forward) to loosen the belt at the beginning of the spin cycle. The springs then pull the carriage back and tighten the belt as the tub picks up speed. If you push the motor carriage forward, it should snap back.

Another thing that looks "off" is that the visible carriage spring appears to be stretched out much further than normal. Maytag played around with different springs until the 90's when they finally decided to stick with a design to the end (these newer springs are backwards compatible with older washers to the early 60's) so it could just be a smaller spring that Maytag chose at the time. Just though I'd mention it though because over-tensioned springs will put too much of a load on the motor and trip the protection circuit.

If you can make a video of the machine going into the spin cycle, we should be able to determine if the machine is working properly or not.

 

[good-shepherd]

spring appears to be stretched out

Was going to mention the same thing.

Could try using your foot to take some pressure off the motor carraige when goes into spin cycle with a wash load and see what happens.

 

[spin-cycle]

Dan,
Your description on the base of motor glide assembly attached to the machine's base plate with 4 tiny machine screws in a square or rectangular pattern, is what mine has. These 4 threaded studs are 10-32 machine thread, the nuts are the type with a captive nylon ring to act as a locking element.

What I am seeing in my assembly now, there is virtually no travel in the motor glide assembly once the belt is on. The springs pull the motor glide assembly away from the tub rotation axis, there by keeping the belt in tension. The original belt on the pulleys limits the travel of the motor glide assembly. Travel is at most 1/8", maybe closer to 1/16". My thought is that slip is very limited with such small travel and is related to what is now the issue my machine has, which I describe as not enough slip. As Good-Shepherd suggested, I just happened to try something similar - when the machine spin cycle started I pushed the motor and motor glide assembly towards the tub rotation axis (yes the AC line voltage is on the nearby terminals on the motor, I exercised suitable caution, this may not be right for everyone to do) thereby minimizing/eliminating the springs effect and increasing slip. Result was still a high current draw but for a much shorter time. I will try this push again this just before the spin cycle starts and hold it through the spin cycle. Want to see if the there is a high current draw and how the spin cycle is affected.

What is perplexing me is that nothing that can alter the motor glide assembly travel has changed, Same belt, same pulleys, same pulley positions, one pulley on the tub rotation axis, other pulley on the motor shaft. The dual groove pulley that fits the motor shaft has 2 different sized grooves for the 2 different sized belts. So the 2 grooves on this one pulley being different diameters are not interchangeable. For the record, I have the thicker belt that is on the tub rotation axis pulley (approx 7" to 8" diameter) on the larger diameter groove on the motor shaft pulley.

The motor glide assembly top and bottom parts with the springs fit together one way. If assembly is attempted other than the one way, the result is that all the holes for the springs are oriented such that one can not attach the springs, so that part arrangement does not work. Given no parts have physically been swapped (there are no other similar looking parts to swap with here) and it seems the parts can be assembled in only one practical and useful way. I am at a loss. The springs out of the assembly appear normal, with no distorted coils.

Just an observation, I have noticed the the lower part of the motor glide assembly 4 threaded studs are are offset. 2 of the threaded studs are approx 3/4" from the nearest edge, other side they are approx 1 and 1/4" from their nearest edge. Perhaps a simpler way to say this is the lower part of the motor glide assembly is not a mirror image. Concluding it is just the way it was designed.

For the sake of experimentation, I did what seems totally wrong. I installed the motor glide assembly in the opposite orientation. The spring pulls the motor towards the tub rotation axis, result is maximum belt looseness (which is not all that much) and the motor shaft is in contact with the slot in the entire machine base that the motor shaft goes through on this model then the pulley can go on the motor shaft, then the belts. My reaction is this can't possibly be correct as the motor shaft and the slot in the base of the entire machine will be in constant contact under spring tension, and will wear away at each other. So will put back.

If I had changed any parts it would be easy to at least wonder are any parts the wrong size.
No parts have been changed, which I am at a loss to explain how it is the way it is.

Sorry for the longer post, video is not a strong area for me right now.
I am going stick with it until it is right, suggestions welcome.

 

[eronie]

Something is to tight here. My motor carrage slides a good one half inch.

 

[qsd-dan]

"Travel is at most 1/8", maybe closer to 1/16""

That's definitely not right! I just removed the front panel on 4 different machines (1967, 1972, 1986, 1992) and all motor carriages have a 1/2" travel distance when pushed forward. What's stopping the carriage from moving further?

It appears you've got a hybrid of old and new motor carriage designs. You have the newer carriage arrangement with the older style mounting plate and base. Pretty interesting combo, I have never seen that before.

Can you raise the front of the machine with the front panel off and take a picture of the motor pulley/belt arrangement from underneath? Maybe we can spot a problem.

 

[spin-cycle]

Eronie, and Dan,
Thank you both so very much for taking the time to look at the travel you have. Dan, 4 machines - above and beyond.....

I have some photos, I had to use a lexan mirror which I had to dig for, as a way to get images.
Sorry for the reversed images but at least they should be worth 500 words?
With these images everyone can see which of the grooves on the motor pulley the thicker heavier belt is on to turn the 7"-8" diameter pulley.

For the entertainment value, I did, temporarily just to get a travel measurement, put thicker heavier belt on the smaller (both in groove size and diameter) of the grooves on the motor pulley. With the heavier belt on the smaller groove I have a total of 3/8" of travel on the carriage arrangement. That is 1/4" more than what I measured with same belt on the larger diameter groove as in photos. I have never heard of a belt, particularly one exposed to ordinary household temps, and no chemical exposure shrinking.
I am confidant there is another explanation, I just do not have it yet.

With the carriage arrangement that I have, best I can determines is what I understand referred to a "revised" assembly. What I have found is it differs from the original design in that top and the bottom were exchanged, swapped. The mounting studs have to be on the bottom part of the carriage to mount to the machine base and 4 holes are needed on the top part of the carriage to accept the motor's integrated threaded studs. I don know what advantage the arrangement offers, but it is what the factory did.

The 64 Trillion dollar question (inflation adjusted... wonder if that is sufficient) that Dan asks is "What's stopping the carriage from moving further? " short answer, the original belt. I am not one to "let go" of a problem, have to say I do feel like I am making the wall bloody from beating my head on it.

The original belt (2-11125-4E 4-B) is the thicker heavier belt that drives the tub/transmission, it is on the original pulleys, requires the motor to assembly to move towards the tub rotation axis to "walk" the belt on to the pulley (approx 7"-8" diameter pulley) that is on the tub rotation axis, under the brake assembly Walking the belt on is do-able, but I would not want my finger caught in there, there is that little movement.

 

[qsd-dan]

short answer, the original belt.

The transmission belt should not prevent the motor carriage from moving forward towards the transmission, it should only limit its backwards travel. I could see limited travel if the belt happened to be too short but if the machine ran fine since new, that kind of eliminates that possibility.

The belts and pulley arrangement are spot on according to your pictures. The motor carriage orientation appears to be correct. The bottom carriage plate should have 2 holes on the left side for carriage springs and one of the right. Top plate should match that.

I assume you re-used your original motor carriage and motor pulley when replacing the motor.

The only other advice I can think of is replacing the transmission belt. Maybe the original belt was a hair short and there might be just enough wear on the fabric wrapping to prevent it clutching properly.

Here's a NOS genuine Maytag belt (not aftermarket or even Whirlpool) for a good price.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/3650237574...pHJYV9v1pwDQRwe0I0NW0m2Ilf|tkp:Bk9SR-D4nK-oZA

"Dan, 4 machines - above and beyond....."

Look at my profile if you want to see the definition of insanity

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-PROFILE_DISPLAY.cgi?display=qsd-dan