Advice on washer/dryer/laundry room

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1. Be certain your supply hoses are woven steel, rather than rubber. Sometimes leaks occur in the hoses, not in the machine itself, and a plumbed drip pan can save you from both types of catastrophes. I have friends in a $1 million home whose upstairs floors were ruined by a leak from an upstairs laundry room which had an UNPLUMBED pan, unable to catch all the water that leaked (and even if it does, how do you deal with the water in the pan with no drain, other than with buckets??).

2. I have a Frigidaire FL model 2140, bought 3/2006 and running strong--with no repairs or service calls ever. I do not use liquid bleach, and always leave the door ajar and wipe the gasket seal dry with a hand towel. I also descale with citric acid on a quarterly basis. I'm sure one day the cheap aluminum spider bracket will break and then I'll need a new one, but for now I'm ok. It has a 3.5 cu ft basket (close to the max size offered in 2006, which was 3.7 on Whirlpool Duets, but small by today's standards). I can wash a full/queen comforter but not a king comforter. So once a year I trudge down to the laundromat and run two loads in their Milnor "triple load machines", one comforter per machine. Their dryers get the comforters dry in 30 minutes, and I always use duvet covers so that the comforters need cleaning once a year maximum. You may have to do the same without a FL---and I understand since this is not a first floor installation, there are vibration reasons to chose a TL and not a FL.

3. If you do choose a FL, be sure there is space to leave the door permanently ajar. Some machines now have a retractable bracket (supposedly child proof) which holds the door open a few inches without allowing it to swing freely, which is a good space saver in tight applications. I believe some Frigidaire models now have this feature. Also, you didn't mention the age of your child (you mentioned a family of three) but if you have a young child, you need to be able to secure your laundry room if there is a FL. They can be deadly attractions to young children.
 
Ok, Mieles capacity is not more then the 3.3 cu ft, maybe even less. And on wooden flors, if you choose a FL, really, get a Miele. I agree, SQ is a better choice for US style washing. As Miele doesn't offer any TLs, SQ is a better choice in. But how about venting the dryer? Will there be a proper, short and mostly straight vent for the dryer?
 
Miele/ venting dryer

I looked at the size of the Miele and they are even smaller, for some reason I thought I had read that they made a model that was 4 cu. ft., but I guess I was wrong.

Your question by assumes way more technical knowledge than I have. Anything that I should ask our engineer to do about the venting of the laundry room?
 
Yes,..

As you know, your vented dryer needs a vent to the outside. The question is: How long is it and how many bows does it have? Because if there are to much bows and/or the way of the vent is to long, your new vented dryer cant vent the moistured, warm air which will give you longer drying times, higher energy usage and (worest case) moisture floating back into your laundry room.
Miele produced 4cuft washers a few years ago, but these were stopped.
How big is a king/queen size comforter in inches or meters? Here in Germany, we have 135cm*200cm and 155*220cm comforters and they fit right into a Miele washer of this size and are washed. With a 3.3 cuft frontload washer, these shpildn't be a problem at all as these machines are round about 20l bigger on drum volume.
 
Braided stainless vs Rubber hoses

Don't assume that just because a hose is wrapped in metal braid that its automatically better then a rubber hose. Its akin to the idea that any modern appliance faced in stainless is better then whatever appliance it replaced. A low cost poorly assembled hose "prettied up" with stainless braid is still a cheap hose.

A high quality rubber hose can work fine for many years. I'd take a rubber hose with the word Gates on it over a stainless hose with the word China on it any day. How often does a hose burst (or get cut) in the middle of the run? Most failures I have seen are at the ends, it's really more about the quality components and assembly.

This reminds me of the pretty gold colored drill bits you buy at the big box stores. They tout the Titanium Nitride coating and how it makes the drill last 50x longer. But its a very thin layer of TiN and about all it does is prevent rusting. The various vapor deposited oxide coatings do offer big advantages on quality cutting tools, but on the cheap drills its just window dressing, as it the stainless braid on a cheap hose. Cosmetics sell to those that don't pay attention.

Pick a good hose (one the manufacture was proud enough to put their name on it!), install it correctly and inspect it once and again and all will be well. For extra insurance turn off the water supply while away.
 
Answer to henene4

The vent would probably have to go 16 ft to get to the edge of the building. I am not sure what "bows" are.

We live in Houston, Texas which tends to be very hot and humid.

The size of our bed is 193cm by 213 (so called "California king").
 
 
16' is not the best, but workable for a straight run (4" solid-flue ducting, not "accordion").  A bow is a bend or angle or turn in the ducting, 90° or whatever.  Every bend reduces the effective air velocity and cuts the maximum-allowable length accordingly.  The dryer's installation instruction should outline details for maximum length per the number of bends.

Ideal ducting is placing the dryer at an exterior wall for straight-through access to the outside.
 
There are safety hoses you can get that supposedly stop the water flow if it bursts and senses full water pressure going through. I put these on my washer in a second floor laundry room. I did once have the drain hose work its way out of the standpipe and make a mess. The pan with drain under the machine didn't help in that case. I realized (duh) that the drain pan will only help if the machine itself overflows, which is much less likely to happen than input or output hose problems. The drain hose is now tie-wrapped to the water spigot and also duct taped to the standpipe. It ain't going nowhere!! Hopefully I'll never find out if those input safety hoses really work or not. They do make me feel safe. I always turn water off after use - ours has a single lever that controls both hot and cold.
 
Heavy Duty Inlet Hoses For AWs

I see little advantage in SS braided hose coverings, the part that contains the pressurized water is still rubber and can fail.

Whirlpool does not recommend SS covered hoses because they can conduct electricity heat up and melt the inner rubber and FLOOD, they can do the same thing from a lighting strike surging through your homes metal water pipes. I would consider SS covered hoses only if you have a high likelihood of having rodents in your home that might chew through regular hoses.

 

Jim, you should be using liquid chlorine bleach occasionally as this will protect the aluminum spider from a build-up of crap that will allow it to corrode to the point that it breaks. We see broken spiders in the smaller door Frigidaire s every week, but the next generation Frigidaire s have not as many problems with broken spiders.

 

I HAVE NEVER SEEN A BROKEN SPIDER ON A FL WASHER WHERE LCB WAS FREQUENTLY USED.

 

Children are more likely to climb into a dryer than a FL washer, so I would not use that as a reason not to get a FL washer.
 
Can't you get something like AquaStop for the hoses?

Our Bosch and Siemens dishwasher and washing machine both have AquaStop valves.

Basically, there's a box with the solinoid valves inside it at the end of the hose and a tube which includes the rubber hose and an electric cable to activate the valve.

It means that the rubber hose is connected to an open valve in the washing machine and never experiences the full pressure of having to hold back the water mains pressure.

The high pressure (non-flowing) mains is held back by copper piping only. So, the rubber tubing only ever gets exposed to flowing water, rather than the extreme static pressure of the mains.

It also means when the valve is closed and the machine's not filling, the water is shut off at the tap on the wall, and not several feet away inside the machine itself.

These machines also all incorporate a float switch in the base which activates the drain pump should the machine fail with the valves open and overfill.
 
Can't you get something like AquaStop for the hoses?

Very well said!
Now here most of the MOL and TOL machines have it!
Even some of the BOL are starting to adopt waterstop systems!
 
Flooring

With all this debate about hoses, we seem to have left the issue of the floor to one side .....

When you say that you are a one storey condo, do you mean that you are on one level? or do you have two levels? If one level, even if the visible floor is wooden suspended, surely there will be a concrete sub-floor under that? If so it is likely that you will have little problems with vibration for the joists (what the floor boards rest on) will either be bedded in/resting on the concrete or will be close enough that additional support can easily be inserted between the base of the joist and concrete sub-floor.

If you have an upper level, or no sub floor it is still possible to fit in a front loader on a suspended floor as I have done in my current home and have also done previously - I would do this anywhere where a front loader is on a suspended floor, even if there is a concrete sub floor.

You will need to place a thick piece of wood under the machines so that the load is spread as widely as possible over the floor area - in my case I used an offcut of a counter top which is 4cm thick - in this way the load is not confined to the small area of each of the feet of the machine.

In my case the floor under my (FL) washing machine is only "tied" directly into the wall on the right hand side, on the left there is a stud wall with the turn of the stairs and landing on the other. It has been this way for 10 years no with no sign of problems, and there is a wall mounted display cabinet on the other side of the wall from the washer with no "creep" of the contents. There is only occasional vibration from unbalanced loads going into the spin, but not at any other time. I will add that making sure the machine is level on the floor side to side and front to back is vital.

As I am typing this it occurred to me that perhaps a wet room type scenario might be worth considering so that you have a drain in the floor. In this case no matter what type of flood you would have it should drain away no problem - assuming the "wet room" floor was properly installed in the first place. This would also make pulling the machines out for service access and even cleaning much easier than if they were sitting in a "pan". Just a thought.

I really do not know that much about US machines but it seems to me from what I have read here that Speed Queen machines are highly regarded and in your situation would be my choice over a Miele for a long term solution to your query and a front loader should be possible as well.

Good luck with your project

Al
 
Richardtb: you have enough good info here. After having two homes built, and adding my own cabinets and making a pantry within both homes laundry rooms, I can say that, if you're building a laundry room and space isn't an issue, plan on giving yourselves some extra width from the face of the w&d's to the adjacent facing wall. I'm sure you've sketched out some dimensional ideas...not sure what your present layout will allow...but I found that the standard plumbing washer outlet boxes attached to the studs doesn't allow a flusher mount of the washer AND there's a solution that can be accomplished by the architect or, if you look around, yourself, possibly. These are prefab boxes that are tall and are inset into the stud walls, enabling both hoses and vents to reduce protrusion and allow a more flusher mount of the washer and dryer.

If you're putting a counter over the washer and dryer, it doesn't matter...but the 3"or more of space that hoses and possibly, a dryer vent can absorb, MIGHT be a consideration for extending the room size. I /we grew sensitive to that 3-4" loss, especially with front loaders.

Many exceptions are possible - so if my ideas don't apply - either way - hope your project is fun and meets all your needs. Have a good time with it!
 
Answer to vacbear58 and ovrphil

By one story condo, I meant, it is in a high rise, and the entire unit is on one story.

The whole unit is 1720sq ft., so space is an issue! So ovrphil suggestion is helpful.

In the high rise, all the utilities run underneath the floor [plumbing, electrical run underneath the entire condominium, this is why I can put the laundry room anyplace I want]. So, there is a concrete subfloor, but below the utilities.

I am really confused by the suggestion of getting a "thick piece of wood under the machines so that the load is spread as widely as possible over the floor area"
Wouldn't that be the same thing as having the washer on top of hardwood floor?

Incidentally, part of the reason why I originally posted on automaticwasher.org is
that in my old house we bought at Bosch FL, and we were never able to fully stabilize it. We now have in storage if anyone is interested in buying it! :)
 
Floor

Richard

Your wife gets the prize, that is exactly what I was getting at.

In your case I would do what we say "belt and braces" (suspenders to you) and insert wood fillers between the base of the joists and the sub-floor. You do not need to do the whole area, just under where the washer and dryer will be. Nor do you need necessarily to do the whole joist but short pieces which can be inserted around the utilities. This should be reasonably simple and inexpensive to do.

I do think it is still wise to put a board under the washer and drier to help spread the load across the joists. In a way its like a stiletto heel, if you imagine the size of the individual feet of the washer sitting directly on the floor bearing the weight of the machine - the load is concentrated in four, very small areas. Using the wood (and I would use thicker myself but if you can brace the joists to the floor that will be a big help) helps spread that same load over a much larger area.

Below is a picture of how my machine is set up (dryer is stacked on top of the washer and my washer spins at a max of 1400rpm) - the floor covering is tile effect laminate over a suspended floor - I hope this helps.

Al

vacbear58++6-26-2013-13-20-40.jpg
 
Visited speed queen dealer

A visited the only place in town that sells speed queens. He warned us that because of federal mandates machine had to be discontinued in 5 years, and so he is concerned about whether we are going to be able to get parts after that.

He recommended that I get a Whirlpool duet.
 
Discontinuation is not surprising. The 2018 TL energy standards are quite difficult to meet. The 2018 standards are the same as today's energy star. Any machine family that does not have an energy star member will be disappearing. The energy requirements for 2015 may cause some of today's machines to disappear but 2018 will be much tougher.
 
answer to frontloaderfan

The store only sells the TL model, so I did not discuss to FL. Sorry.

The store also sells Miele & Bosch and he implied that he would not be surprised if both of these companies stop selling washer & driers when the new driers standard come up that limit fire hazards.
 
SQ FL Washers

Are Energy-Star machines now and will not be discontinued in 5 years and I predict that SQ will still be making the TL washers in 5 years as well, they may not be selling them in the US however. I would bet that any SQ laundry product being built today will have better parts availability than most if not all WP laundry products being sold today in 10-15-20 years from now.
 
i was refering to my old 2004 duet its a first generation but what i do not like about it is the fact that i do not have a quick wash cycle on it and also for me du to my size near 6 inch tall i have to sit down to load unload the washer and also my laundy room is on the second floor so when the washer go into spin i hear it from the first floor and also when i have to use hand wash or delicate cycle the washer do not do a first spin to spin out the sud it fills directly for a rinse
 
DONT GET WHIRLPOOL!!!

Here in Germany "Bauknecht" is a oftenly sold brand, made by Whirlpool. And really, machines bought 5 years ago broke down in 90% of all cases. Whirlpool are one of these "Buy them, use them 3 years, get a new one" brands. And, even if Miele would stop producing them, parts would be avaible still. But these are quite expensive in deed after 15+ years.
 
response to henene4

Well, I am limited in choices since my wife will not allow me to buy anything which is less then 3.3 cu. ft., so that knocks out the Miele and the SQ FL.

I called AJ Madison and the salesperson recommended the Maytag Maxima.
 
Mmh, okay, then i`m out. Don't now much about these US washer brands.
Only Miele Professional offers such big drums, like the one i posted below...Indeed this one is one of the smallest machines they offer with ca. 3.5 cu ft, and because it is a machine oftenly used in Laundromats, this will last a long time. The next bigger one needs to be bolted, so now way that for.On this one, the machine just needs to be fixed to the flor with smaller screws.
But these machines are just horrible expensive, so, get any washer you want and that is recomended by one of the members or your appliances dealer.

http://www.miele.us/us/prof/products/33_31335.htm
 

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