American vs. European Washers and Dryers

[toggleswitch]

Hi all. I'm new to the site, after finally "coming out" with my attraction to this amazing site and its wonderful guys and ladies.

So here's me splling my guts. (Please take it all as "IMHO")

Subject: Regarding heaters in new (to the American market) F/L washers. (sorry.... can't find the original thread.)

The appliances we see overall are generally engineered to fit our electrical systems. Here is what I mean.

Keep in mind.... AMPS X VOLTS = WATTS

In the US.... we generally have at least a 20 amp appliance circuit for the laundry room where:

20 amps @ 115 volts = 2,300 watts.
Code says we can plan/allow a load of 80% max per circuit.
(80% of 20 amps = 16 amps)

Therefore a washer and a GAS dryer = 10 + 6 amps respectively or 16 amps total, and can be safley/legally put on one 20 amp line. This is the maximum electical load. (So the added load of a water-heating element doesn't work in this scenario.)

Even if we were to run a washer alone on a separate line there would still be a very limited number of amps available on a 15 or 20 amp US circuit (esp, considering many US washers are rated at/ use 9 or 10 amps.) to run a water-heating element.

This would also necessitate running a gas dryer on another electrical line. (An electric dryer would already be on a separate heavy-duty 30 amp line.)

Now:

In Europe they seem to use two 13 amp circuits (general-duty for their metric wire-gauges; our equivalent general-duty lines are rated 15 amps) in the laundry room. The washer on one line, and an electric dryer on the other. (Which means they can plug a full-size/speed dryer into any outlet in their homes... as long as it's not the same line as the washer.)

13 amps @ 230 volts = 2,990 watts.

Assuming that they too can only go to 80% max. of 13 amps = 10.4 amps.... (so let's say 10.5 rounded)

Their electric dryers are SLOWER because the wattage of their full-size machines is necessarily lower,(less than 3,000 watts I believe) to use the available 13 amp 220 volt sockets.

Now: More importantly than 220V countries having about 700 watts more to start with, (and then not having to share the socket with a dryer) is that

WATTS / VOLTS = AMPS

2,000 watts / 230 V = 8.69 amps

2,000 watts / 115 V = 17.39 amps

(where 2,000 is a randomly chosen wattage of say.. the water-heating element)

...so Europe and other 220 V countries can pack a much larger number of watts on a line and still keep the amps low due to their higher voltage.

In summation they CAN add a water heating element because of their electrical voltage and they way their use of power in the laundry room has evolved. For us it is much more difficult unless more electrical capacity is brought to the laundry room.

Thanks for listening and please be gentle when commenting.

Thanks and great to be aboard...

 

[SactoTeddyBear]

Re: Reading, understanding and help needed:

I've checked all of this info out and since I'm not real educated about the terms, I would like to add with asking some info for some additional help for myself on this topic. I'm looking into operating probably a Top-Load Washer and a Front-Load Washer, with a Stacked Gas Dryer on top of it. If I were to plug all of these into the same Circuit Plug area and possibly even look into also operating my {110-Volt} LG Compact Combo Unit at one time or another all at once, is this going to Overload the Circuit, even given that the 1-Dryer's Heat Source is Gas. I know that when the Combo Unit is Drying, that it will be no doubt drawing quite a lot of Electricity, but will all of them still run, or will the Circuit be too Overloaded?

I'm also going to look into operating my Lady-K Combo at some time, but it is Electric and will be on the 220-Volt Circuit.

I would really appreciate any and all {easy terms} help with my inquiry. I might at some time also have 2-Full-Size Front-Load Washer's, instead of 1-Top-Load and 1-Front-Load and a Gas Dryer, besides either the Lady-K Combo or the LG Compact Combo, but most of the time will be similar groups of the first mentioned of Washer's and Dryer's.

Peace and Happy Laundry, Steve
SactoTeddyBear...

 

[kenmore1978]

3 appliances, one circuit

very easy to calculate. Add up the totoal amp draw of all three appliances. If it goes over 20, won't work. Now, I'm assuming this is a new enough home to have 12 gauge wiring and a 20 amp breaker on that circuit, and there's nothing else on the circuit besides those machines.

 

[kenmore1978]

Maximum load

"Therefore a washer and a GAS dryer = 10 + 6 amps respectively or 16 amps total, and can be safley/legally put on one 20 amp line. This is the maximum electical load. (So the added load of a water-heating element doesn't work in this scenario.)"

To add to this, most appliances are still designed to draw less than 15 amps at 115 volts, since there are still MANY older homes with 15 amp maximum circuits. So manufactureres have to design energy draw for the "worst case scenario" to ensure that things will work in any home, old or new.

 

[kenmore1978]

permittable overloading

My '78 LK washer draws 9 amps and the dryer draws 6 amps. In an older home, this theoretically would cause an overload, but in practice, they could run together since time delay fuses and circuit breakers allow for temporary overloads. In the case of the washer, the fill periods allow for no load conditions. In the case of the GAS dryer, it only actually draws its full 6 amps when lighting the burner, and that only occurs for about 15 seconds every so often. Otherwise, it only pulls about 3 amps. This allows them to to run on a 15 amp circuit (though my circuit is actually a modern 20 amp circuit)

 

[SactoTeddyBear]

Re: Extra Info:

Hey! kenmore1978, thank you for the info, as with reminding me of some other info to include. The house was built in 1954, with a Fuse-Box "BUT" the Fuse-Box was replaced in the late 1970s or early 1980s with a 200-Amp Circuit Breaker Box. It only has around 1/2 of the Breaker Plates being used for the house and garage area. The house was originally with having the kitchen {south wall} Recepticle where the Refrigerator sits, being on the common wall to the Laundry in the garage Recepticle and I'm not sure if they were separated. There were also another Recepicle in the Kitchen for Small Appliances, that since has been separated, actually again a few years ago, because I've got 2-Microwave Ovens, with one being Maytag "Over-the-Range" Micro/Hood Model and I couldn't run both at once, so I had an Electrician separate their Circuits. At this time, I've got another Refrigerator Plugged into the Receptical in the garage at the Laundry and it hasn't blown the Circuit yet...The Refrigerator will eventually be replacing the one in the Kitchen, because it is a {24cu-ft} Side-By-Side and the one in the Kitchen is a {21cu-ft} Top-Freezer {both newer mid 1990s Maytag's} that I'm probably going to sell. I'm not sure, but I assume that the "LG" Combo Unit would as with American-Made Washer's have the Electrical Info on the Model Number Plate? "BTW" the Water Heater for the house is Gas, although the "LG" Combo does have a built-in Heater, but while I'm using it as a Portable in my Kitchen at this time, I've never used the Sani-Heating Cycle yet, nor do I actually ever expect to use it at all, except for possibly just to check out the difference in Laundrying performance.

Peace and Happy Laundry Days, Steve
SactoTeddyBear...

 

[toggleswitch]

power issues

Thanks all. Very cool. Learning a lot every time I log-on.

-esp gas dryer power draw with ignitor off, (Tks Kenmore1978)

One-piece stackables (washer & gas dryer) (110 v) have a plug made for a 20 amp outlet [One prong is horizontal] to prevent insertion onto a 15 amp outlet (BTW 12 amp is the max @ 80%)

Most compact electric dryers draw something like 12 to 14/15 amps, and will frequently partially melt an oultet or at least brown and enlarge the openings, (especially if many loads are done in succession) when used on a 15a line.

Code allows the use of a 15 amp receptacle on a 20 amp circuit -- in residences only-- not commerical use. So it is frequently seen... at least in my area in/around NYC.

TIP: use 20 amp receptacles on 20 amp lines. Industrial grade-- even better.

Those of use who like to play with plug-in major appliances...resulting in maxing out circuits... I'd personally replace 15 amp receptacles with 20 amp ones just to avoid such melt-downs.

I'd also use electrical tape around outlets and switches to cover the screw terminals and prevent shorting against metal splice/oultet boxes should the outlet/switch come loose and "shift"

I'd also like to say (since EVERYONE is entitled to my opinion.. LOL)

I think F/L -ers spin faster since in their lands (where they are the rule, not the exceptions and 220 volts is regular voltage) the dryers are so slow. and "powerless"

PS I chose "Toggleswitch" because all of you just turn me on with all this type of talk...

-Toggleswitch

 

[kenmore1978]

20 amp outlets

"Those of use who like to play with plug-in major appliances...resulting in maxing out circuits... I'd personally replace 15 amp receptacles with 20 amp ones just to avoid such melt-downs."

Just to clarify, you want to get the 20 amp rated outlet with the "T" shaped slot, not just the horizontal slot, so it can accomadate 15 and 20 amp plugs

 

[foraloysius]

Just some additional information about Europe, or better about the Netherlands because there is a difference with the UK I think. Overhere the circuits are 16 amps and as far as I know we don't use the 80% max. norm. That means 16 x 230 = 3680 Watts. My Miele frontloader (an older model with a bigger heating element than the modern ones) draws max. 3480 Watts.

BTW, sometimes for American appliances HP is used. Isn't 1 HP about 750 Watts?

 

[toggleswitch]

Plugs/ Outlets /Power / HP/ UK Ring Circuits

Kenmore 1978-

Agreed.. "T" slot on 20a 110v outlet is best to be able to use both 15a and 20a plugs.

Foraloysius-

Thanks.... good to know. 3,480 watts @ 115 volts is over 30amps!!! Even our heavy-duty dryer outlets would choke!

I'm inclined to say you are correct about HP. Don't really know what a HP is worth in Watts. I'd say here we use HP to compare the size of electric and gasoline motors. Can anyone help me with this one?

And speaking of power in the UK.. if anyone wants to hear me ramble on about RING Circuits and why UK Plugs are fused...feel free to ask!

I fear i'm getting too technical for a newbie!

 

[lavamat_jon]

My washer and dryer are plugged into standard UK plug sockets in my bedroom, it's great how appliances here are almost plug and play! But yes - my dryer socket is not only used for supplying electricity to the dryer; but it's also where I plug in my phone charger, and the socket that I use for vacuuming my room.

BTW; my AEG OKO_LAVAMAT washer draws 2300W with the 13A 230V circuit, and my AEG LAVATHERM dryer draws 2750W on a 13A 230V circuit. I think the dryer possible has a higher fuse than the washer, as the flex is quite a bit thicker than the one on my washer.

Apparently our 3-pin switched plugs in the UK are the safest in Europe, and probably the most flexible too. I've been to France and Germany several times before and the sockets didn't even have switches on them, and some didn't even have an earth! Is this the same in the US?

Jon

 

[westytoploader]

The 120V sockets don't have switches on them here, but does not make them any more or less dangerous than others.

 

[westytoploader]

Also, all of the sockets now are 3-prong grounded. 2-prong sockets existed back in the 60's but are no longer made, probably due to the fact that they are a major shock hazard! The last time I saw a 2-prong outlet was in a house across town, built in the 1940's.

 

[toggleswitch]

Plugs/ Outlets /Power /

In the US a std outlet ("power point" => UK) has a ground ("earth" => UK) older ones do not.

Plugs and outlets are also polarized (with one prong wider than the other so that un-grounded plugs fit into the wall outlet only one way. (Hot stays hot... neutral stays neutral on those things that are connected to power via a cord and plug)

In New York City the Electric Code is much stricter than (and augments/supplements) the "NEC" National Electric Code. Wires by law are metal-sheathed (as opposed to plastic sheathing with a bare copper ground conductor.) which is used as a system ground. METAL boxes are required to house switches, outlets and splices. Switches and outlets are therefore automatically grounded when they are mounted via screws into such a metal box in NYC, no separate action needed.

Metal sheathed wires are required to prevent fires caused by beasties (polite way of saying rodents) biting into wires.
A side benefit is that induced Electro-magnetic fields are (grounded away!!! There is controvesy that these are a health risk.

By the way we MAY NOT ground to gas EVER!!! I thought I read that the UK can/should.

I think UK outlets have switches for safety as was mentioned earlier...lessens chance of touching live prongs/pins on plugs. I believe the outlets in other 220V territories are recessed so that it's nearly impossible to touch a live pin when in the action of plugging or unplugging something in. For US residents think of a "clock outlet." These were normally found in the soffit above kitchen cabinets (I pray this is not a local thing and was common throughout the US.)

Now how many younger people even know that wall clocks were at one time electric and corded and not battery operated?

 

[westytoploader]

My high school is "1970-vintage" (all original; while it has since been repainted, a few of the classrooms still have avocado green walls), and there are still many 1970's Sunbeam corded wall clocks in use there as well as the original Standard clock system in the hallways and cafeteria. An interesting note is that up until 2 years ago (before 9th grade), a few of the Standard clocks did not work. I guess the maintenence finally got their act together and fixed 'em!

Battery wall clocks can be troublesome because after a while, the mechanism wants to "stick" regardless of how many times you change the battery--a real pain. Corded is much more reliable and accurate, IMHO, and I always liked the way the second hand constantly turned...

--Austin

 

[kenmore1978]

NEC standards

In the US a std outlet ("power point" => UK) has a ground ("earth" => UK) older ones do not.

two prong outlets are still available for use in older homes that still have ungrounded systems

Plugs and outlets are also polarized (with one prong wider than the other so that un-grounded plugs fit into the wall outlet only one way. (Hot stays hot... neutral stays neutral on those things that are connected to power via a cord and plug)

Outlets were actually polarized WAY before manufacturers started putting polarized plugs on ther products. I'm so particular that on things that don't have polarized plugs, I determine which wire is the Neutral wire and plug it in appropriatley.

In New York City the Electric Code is much stricter than (and augments/supplements) the "NEC" National Electric Code. Wires by law are metal-sheathed (as opposed to plastic sheathing with a bare copper ground conductor.) which is used as a system ground. METAL boxes are required to house switches, outlets and splices. Switches and outlets are therefore automatically grounded when they are mounted via screws into such a metal box in NYC, no separate action needed.

Local authorities are free to have stricter codes than the NEC specifies. Examples, often electric ranges and dryers were grounded through the neutral and had 3 prong plugs, but some local codes dictated that the ground and neutral be grounded separately, necessitating a 4 prong plug and outlet. The city of Los Angeles dictated early on (The Teens) that wiring had to be in RIGID conduit (and later, flexible metal conduit) or thinwall metal conduit (for outside underground wiring). Plastic sheathed wiring was only allowed in the last 20 years. What was nice about this arrangement was that simply replacing the old two prong outlets with 3 prong ones automatically gave you a safe grounded system, even in very old houses. L.A. also allows the Ground and Neutral to be tied together (some local codes require separate Ground and Neutral). It's then connected to either a grounding rod driven into the ground, or attached to the water plumbing AND it's also carried back to the utility pole.

 

[toggleswitch]

NYC & Long Island, NY Electrical Standards

"L.A. also allows the Ground and Neutral to be tied together (some local codes require separate Ground and Neutral). It's then connected to either a grounding rod driven into the ground, or attached to the water plumbing AND it's also carried back to the utility pole."

NYC=> Neutral is grounded at the circuit breaker panel (called consumer unit=> UK) No grounding rods AT ALL. All sevices are grounded to incoming water pipes. (And now water meters which are relatively new to NYC have a jumper to ensure contiguous ground.) Service enters via METAL conduit. (never plastic conduit or plastic sheathed cable "Romex")

LONG ISLAND=> Varies from village to village, but in my neck of the woods when I upgraded my main service it was required to be grounded to a water pipe AND with a grounding rod in the earth.

At one time I had no W&D and was in the laundromat (IMAGINE?)The water main was being worked on and was "dug out." The workers removed the grounding clamp to the electical system. WOW!! All the flouresecent lights were strobing and shimmering. There was one dryer running. When I went to put my clothes in another one and tried to start it the whole place went dim and the other dryer slowed down to the point it nearly stopped. I had no idea at the time grounding is essential

I once peeked behind the back of a (tall) commerical dryer --to see how they work, of course-- [The kind with the burner on top and the filter in a compartment on the bottom] and it said "Approved for use in NYC by ....." and "Approved for use in LA by ......" so it looks like those two cities have perhaps the most stringent codes, electrical and otherwise.

 

[brisnat81]

Australian Spin

Australia is another country that doesnt have recessed recepticals. But all outlets are switched.

A standard Power circuit here is 240V 10Amps
In most places the FL washer and dryer share a double 10am outlet without any issues. 99% of FL washers in Australia have Heating built in. A lot of the current machines dont even have connection to Hot water.

Most dryers in AU are "compact" and rated to about 8-10amps, but the large capacity American Style dryers still need 240V 20Amps to run. The Large Capacity American style dryers are very rare in Australia. Most are "Compact" and rated to about 5kg

With 240v we never have an issue using extension leads either, we dont seem to get the same voltage loss that is experienced in the US, which from my understanding is simpley a function of using a higher voltage.

 

[foraloysius]

I guess rules overhere on the continent are a little less strict than in the UK. No switches on outlets and outlets in other rooms than kitchens, bathrooms and utility rooms aren't grounded. But every house overhere has a GFI.