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leononmaui

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I have had 2 front load washers in 12 years. The original Maytag Neptune, now Whirlpool Duet HT. I used to put more clothes in a top load machine. Now I split a load into 2 loads and do 2 washes. Even king size sheets are done in 2 loads in the Duet. Not very smart. Even in the dryer the sheets are dried individually. I don't think I'm saving any money doing this. I'm thinking of going back to a top load machine and get it all done in one load. What do you all think? I have tried doing a "normal" load in a front loader and they don't seem to come out clean.
 
I can put more in my FridGEmore front loader than I did with my old Maytag Top loader.

I think my front loader cleaned better than the TL washer I've used in the past.

I also did the numbers on our water use, We save almost 12,000 gallons going from TL to HE.
 
Blimey...

...having never used an American front load machine, it is difficult to comprehend to some degree, but even little 4kg (9lb) Hoovers will happily take a full sheet set and a duvet cover....

...and I tend to wash a full QS sheet set and a duvet cover on the cottons quick 60c (hot) cycle in my machine....no issues at all...and it's not a big capacity like a duet
 
speed queen TOP loader hands down!!! when the machine lasts 30 years, u will be happy, people think they are saving money by buying a front loader and "going green" but it is all just a fad, what is better for a budget AND environment? 2 or 3 front loaders in 25 years going into landfills and 3 to 4 thousand dollars for new ones or buying a good built machine ONE time!! you do the math. not all front loaders are bad, MOST of them have a lifespan of 5 years here in america, i have heard that the speed queen front loader is a good machine.
 
I checked how big was a king size sheet and according to what I found it is "72 x 84 inches (or 182 x 213 cm)". That's quite smaller than a "matrimoniale" (double) sheet that we use in Italy (260 X 300 cm). Now, in a 5kg machine, can I put a complete set of those, upper, lower and pillow cases. The Duet, here is marketed as a 10 or 11 kg machine! It should fit more stuff than any other machine. That is more than 24 lbs of clothes, did you ever fill the drum to the top?
Sorry if I sound polemic but I'm mesmerized!
 
What's wrong with this picture?

Hi Leon,

I don't know why you aren't taking advantage of the larger front loaders capacity (compared to a top loader) and loading with a full, or mostly full load. Also, why would you dry only ONE sheet in the dryer at a time? That is SUCH a waste of resources, money, etc.

Of course it's ultimately it's your choice, but going back to a top loader is not going to give you the ability to wash more items per load. Also, just because a top load machine uses more water does not make your cloths any cleaner. Granted the rinsing can be better the some FL machines.

I have a 12 year old Frigidaire Gallery FL washer which has a smaller tub capacity (3.1 cu. ft. vs. 3.34 for the Neptune and 3.8 for the Duet) and I wash a set of Cal King sheets and 4 king pillow cases, all in one load, every week and they ALWAYS come out clean. I also dry all those in one load too and never have a problem.

One time just for grins I washed the Cal King sheets W/pillow cases AND a queen size sheet set W/ two pillow cases, at the same time, ALL ONE LOAD! I also dried all those in one load too. They all came out nice and fresh and clean!! They did dry fine but BOY was the dryer FULL, right to the top!

My point? Load the machine as it should be loaded, put some cloths in it!
 
Have to agree with Kevin

And as for build quality Miele is a million miles ahead of anything Speed Queen can produce. Now I realise these are extortionately priced, but if reliability is what you want, and if you want a machine made like machines of days gone by, this really is the only option.

I would really just try loading the machine until you can just get your hand in on top of the clothes without having to pack them down really hard.

More water dosen't mean better results, contrary to what most people would think.

I was also under the impression most U.S. front loaders are bigger than most U.S. toploaders.

Matt
 
The problem with our front loaders:

Comparing the Duet I'm renting to my Italian Zerowatt, the Zerowatt balances best when it is full. However, I get better results with the Whirlpool when I load just a little over half its capacity. Again, there's a balancing issue here and the Whirlpool often won't go into spin when it is fully loaded with bulky items. There has to be enough space for items to move around and take their positions as the computer slowly ramps up and does its testing.

For a front loader, getting a Miele may be the best bet. Here, they really don't cost much more than a cheap Electrolux. The Duet, and others like it (Samsung, E-Lux, LG, etc), contain many delicate plastic trim pieces and thin stamped sheet metal frame components. It would be OK if you want a new HE machine but need to buy something cheap, but a gentle touch and a lot of care are mandatory. A decent front loader requires a good investment and a solid floor!

Top loaders: You can use any brand and type of detergent in a standard top loader without any worry of choking up its pluming. They are simple, and can run for years without needing repairs. And often, parts can be found cheap. Capacity is limited, though, and they can be prone to billowing (cloths float, and the agitator doesn't pull them down to the fins). Standard top loaders tend to be better at flushing and rinsing than most typical HE machines. When the price is low, the manufacturer has to compromise between price, quality, and performance. A top loader's simpler design and lower parts count makes this easier, passing the savings down to the customer.

NorfolkSouthern
 
You are right Norfolk

I totally agree with you Norfolk. The Duet that I had before the LG both had the same quality. About 2/3rds full was the fullest you could load the machines and still expect good results. And you must use the prewash to get the best results.

I think it is a combination of the tilted tub and the limited amount of water in the machine.

I still don't understand this race to use the least amount of water in the machine. Then they want you to run a cleaning cycle every 30 loads. A cleaning cycle that uses an enormous amount of water.

I think the cleaning cycle is a required as a result of a combination of things.

1) Low water temperatures.
2) Using too little detergent so that soils are not held in suspension.
3) Plastic outer tubs.
4) Lack of water for rinsing.

So, for me, the first requirment for a FL or TL washer is NO PLASTIC OUTER TUB! Which knocks all the mainstream manufacturers. Even the big Mieles don't qualify. Only Speed Queen, the Mini-Mieles, and the Asko minis are left.

Malcolm
 
question about wash action

As Norfolk wrote those vintage frontloaders that use plenty of water in the main wash perform better @ full load. Half loads revolve while floating rather than tumbling. This mechanical action is too gentle to remove spots and stains, e.g. from table linens and kitchen towels.... so @ those times it ended up with LCB in the first rinse.

Not a case, vintage mieles had a default hi level prewash for a faster saturation, then a LOW level main wash to achieve an effective tumble action

So my question : are agitator/impeller toploaders able to clean spotted and stained kitchen towels/tablelinens without LCB help ?

Please don't take this question as a wind-up.
To be fair this question should be addressed to British members who know the Hotpoint Liberator toploaders (with internal heater that could boilwash too)

TIA

Carlo
 
A top loader's simpler design and lower parts count makes this easier, passing the savings down to the customer.

uhm, actuallly a front-loader does not need a transmission. Most classic top-loaders need a transmission.

Are you considering a front-loader's dispensers as mechnically complicated?
 
Toggleswitch2:

Actually, I was referring to the suspension components in top loaders, vs front loaders. And yes, it has been my experience that a top-loader is easier to service. For one, top loaders are lighter and easier for me to move around, while front loaders have more weight and take considerably more effort. I can remove a DD Whirlpool top loader's pump by pulling off the cabinet and removing a couple snaps, while I would have to almost completely disassemble my Italian Zerowatt. Sorry if I wasn't making myself more clear.

NorfolkSouthern
 
So my question : are agitator/impeller toploaders able to cl

Yes, provided one knows what one is doing.

Just means thinking a little backward instead of modern way.

Have washed everything from badly soiled kitchen linens, to white socks worn indoors as slippers so long they ranged from grey to "yuck", and everything comes out whiter than white.

Top loading washing machines by their nature have more to do with the old "dolly stick" washing of yesterday and the "pounding on a rock" action mimiced by front loaders.

To clean badly stained laundry properly in a top loader, one needs to do women did years ago; first a warm or cool wash soak, followed by a hot wash, all with proper detergents/soaps.

The cool to warm pre-wash or pre-soak carries off a major part of the dirt, loosens soils and stains, and also prevents same from being set by hot water. The hot wash shifts whatever soils and stains are left.

As for bleaching in a top loader, most use LCB, but one or two washes (as in pre-soak or pre-wash, then main wash), with a good detergent containing advanced oxygen bleaching system (such as Tide with Bleach), will shift even the most stubborn stains. Indeed a very good enzyme detergent alone, without bleaches of any sort can and will shift most stains,especially if given enough time to do the job.

Certain stains are always pre-treated regardless how I am doing the wash, top or front load or twin tub. Blood stains will shift easily without bleach if they are pre-treated with a good enzyme based stain product. Old and or set in blood stains may require spot treatment first with enzyme product then oxygen bleach, either way they are gone.

Problem with top loading washing machine results, lies not as much with the design of the washer, but how most do their laundry in the things.

Bunging in a load of clothing, setting the machine to "hot" and hoping for the best. simply will not do.

As for front loading washing machines being more gentle on wash than top loaders; well yes that was true when the former actually used more than a cup full of water to wash clothes. By and large today most machines barely wet the load down and to compenstate for decreased water use, have exteneded wash cycles. So now you have laundry being beaten about itself and against the wash tub for almost an hour in some cases, just for the "wash" cycle. Enough of that often enough and you will have badly worn items.
 
"Even the big Mieles don't qualify"

I was under the impression the material used in the outer tubs of the large U.S. Miele's was the same material used to make the hulls of yachts. Can anyone confirm this?

As for rinsing, yes, some modern front loaders don't really rinse well, however, I don't personally feel a single rinse with a spray rinse in a top loader is really effective enough, having seen a number of videos of them on youtube with cloudy rinse water and suds on top has confirmed that to me. They probably do rinse clearer if used more carefully, but I wouldn't call it perfect. I'm sure they leave clothes plenty soft enough and will not aggravate skin irritations, but this is also true of the poorest rinsing front loaders when they are used properly.

As for modern front loaders wearing clothes out faster, well in the dryer the clothes are tumbled for relatively long periods of time, with high temperatures, continuous fast tumbles and no water at all yet no one complains they damage fabrics, despite having to scrape worn off fibres from the lint filter when it's done. :)

I haven't had clothes damaged by any machine, I use shorter cycles unless clothes are really heavily soiled, but I think the majority of fabric wear happens when clothes are being worn rather than in the washer.

I would put poorer wash results of U.S. front loaders to be down mainly to the fact they try to make them work in the same time as a top loader, but also the fact U.S. detergents are really formulated for top loader use (even the HE ones) and lack of sufficient control over temperature. After 30mins a huge (slightly overloaded) load of thick absorbant cottons and my Mum's Whirlpool may still be topping up with water to soak the load down. In many U.S. front loaders water consumption (per kg of clothes) is about the same, yet on some machines even a heavy duty main wash lasts a mere 15 mins, so when filled like a front loader can be, the load isn't toally soaked down by the end of the wash!

Machines can wash perfectly in the tiny amounts of water they use now, but the wash times have to be increased. Your average Euro wash time has gone fron under an hour in the 80s to over 2 hours in some cases today, due to lower water consumption. This dosen't matter here because of our laundry habits. Where an American may wash say, 7 loads on one day every week, a European would typically put one load on every day of the week, then go out, go to work, go to bed, or just go and do something else, so it really dosen't matter how long a cycle lasts to us on the whole. Also, for less heavily soiled clothes far shorter cycles can be used.

Matt
 
Oh yeah...reliability

Well I would have said a front loader is a more simple design, but I think that depends on what you're used to. I could open up a front loader and be relatively comfortable with what everything is and where everything is, stick a top loader in front of me and I wouldn't have a clue!

I think it's fair to say, with the exception of Miele, quality has dropped accross the board, but so has cost. Some modern machines may be expensive, but only because of their modern styling, millions of buttons and lights, pretty colours and claimed features and benefits. As a result of this, their percieved value to the consumer is higher. Take a machine like that and make it to Miele standards and it would cost a small fourtune, as early automatics did.

I guess your average "shredmore" will last a fair bit longer than some of these new designs, but the are essentially 27 year old machines inside right? A front loader that was designed 27 years ago would last longer than most modern designed ones too.

The finger of blame is often pointed at the use of increased use of plastics and modern electronic controls. If plastics of good enough quality are used, they can often replace many aspects of a machine that were previously metal with no consequences. Early electronic machines from the 70s/80 and those of quality such as Miele do last as long as your average mechanical timer, it's simply down to quality of parts, good design and good quality control, these are often overlooked in favour of producing a cheaper machine today. The manufacturer is not necessarily to blame, as they are only producing what the consumers *think* they want, as most have little to no idea of the build quality and longevity of the products they buy, and often just don't care.

Matt
 
Clean Washer Cycle

Even Miele has fallen into the "You must clean the inside of the machine once a month" with their Clean Washer Cycle. A process that doesn't seem neccessary when the outer tub is stainless steel or porcelain.

It isn't a durability issue with the "plastic" outer tub but more that gunk will cling to it.

Seems every time I crack open a Whirlpool DD washer that is more than a couple years old, the upper portion of the outer wash tub is black with gunk. YUCK!

Malcolm
 
Actually, Well No

Tumble drying is *NOT* the same as laundring clothing in a front loading washing machine.

With a tumble dryer, unless overly loaded, air is supposed to move around and through the clothing, this tis what dries them. This air to an extent does provide some cushioning, though one supposes if someone crammed a dryer full there would be heavy wear on clothing.

Dryer drums are also much larger for load sizes than H-Axis washing machines. This is one reason why "combo" units normally do very poorly when it comes to drying. The tub is just too small for all but a small load of laundry to move freely, thus allowing air to get at the laundry, and dry it.

As for Miele...

Read reports on both sides of the pond in consumer magazines. Though probably streets ahead of some other brands, Miele has had it's share of problems, especially with units sold/shipped to the North American market. Also for the dear cost of parts and call out costs, Miele appliances darn well better give good service. One or two out of warranty calls and one just may be better off buying a new (but lower priced) unit.

Rinsing:

My little Whirlpool does give quite good results, even with only three spray rinses and one deep rinse. Again loading is key and proper use of chemicals. I always do two rinses in a top loader anyway, but that's me for you.

Have also done several spin rinses in a Hoover TT, and that did well enough that water was clear when laundry was either bunged into the main tub for a deep rinse, or into the Miele for same.

Will give you that today's top loading washing machines are by and large near rubbish, with perhaps the exception of SQ and a few others. Restrictions on energy use and such have robbed the units of what they need, large amounts of water to wash and rinse laundry. Of course the alternative is to do smaller loads, but Americans as a lot tend to wish to get wash day over with quickly. No sense in having a "large" or "super" capacity top loader if you can only do "medium" wash loads.

L
 
Clean washer cycle!

It's unnecessary regardless of what the outer tub is made of!
I have yet to see an European machine that requires that.
I had a look at my father's Dreamspace (that's the European Duet, rated at 11kg!) and it never mentions a cleaning cycle.

And if you want a machine with a stainless steel outer tub, btw, get a SMEG made one (forget those ugly speed queens) nor one of the outsourced machine from Beko or B/S/H. This is all steel, inside and outside. (and doesn't require refresh cycles)

For the rest, Matt expressed my opinion perfectly too.

http://www.smeg.it/International/Catalogue/Product/WDF16BAX1.aspx?SID=1451382
 
Clean Washer Cycle

Whether or not you believe it is uneccessary or not, the manufacturer, Miele, has gone out of their way to add that cycle to the latest models.

The SMEG is CUTE, I'll give you that. The Speed Queen Imperial is all stainless steel inside and out and doesn't require a clean machine cycle either.

Malcolm
 
Clean washer cycle

Most probably added as it can be pushed as an extra "feature" to attract consumers, especially those who have been put off by the reports of "smelly washers" that are a result of misuse of the machine rather than a design fault or a problem all front loaders have.

I'm certain if you have a machine with a "clean" cycle and never use it, but use the machine properly, you will never need it.

Matt
 
Clean Cycle

Seems to me that only machines with plastic outer tubs have this clean cycle. This includes high efficiency top loaders as well.

And just because the machine doesn't smell doesn't mean that the machine is clean. The Whirlpool DD machines that I have worked on that are GROSS inside don't smell bad.

Malcolm
 
@ Launderess - thanks .... have you ever tried plain kitchen salt & cold water on blood stains ?

@ Gabriele : the euro Duets - Maxy 100 and Dreamspace - can boilwash @ 95°C .
The big american 110 V mieles don't heat beyond 70°C ("sanitize" temp)

@ Malcom : also european mieles now require cleaning cycles in case of cold washes .... here an excerpt from the W5928 booklet [ http://www.miele.co.uk/Resources/OperatingInstructions/W 5928 wps.pdf ] :

"Extra cleaning
Carry out a hot wash (70°C or above)
with powder detergent approx. every 6
weeks to help prevent deposits building
up in the machine. These can occur
when washing is mainly done at low
temperatures, and can lead to
unpleasant smells. If you have no
reason to wash occasionally at this high
temperature, then run a Cottons 95°C
programme with detergent but no
laundry at regular intervals."

Miniwashers ?!? Then this E'lux is a MICRO washer :-). even Candy produces these "Barbie" washers (check link). My little niece saw one of these in a big box store while shopping with my sister. She guessed it's a toy and wrote to Santa she wanted it ! :-)))

http://www.candy.it/popup/aquamatic/index.html?keepThis=true&TB_iframe=true&height=410&width=714
favorit++12-22-2009-08-08-42.jpg
 
Seems to me that only machines with plastic outer tubs have

Yes, but what percentage of machines sold now have plastic outer tubs? Very few have tubs made of other matierials, so I'd put that down mostly to chance.

Have seen machines with both plastic and stainless steel or enamel outer tubs that are mouldy and smelly.

I have regular use of a machine with a metal outer tub and 2 machines with plastic outer tubs. With a hot towels wash every so often and powdered, oxi bleach containing detergent and keeping the door open between cycles means there is never a need to run a cleaning cycle, let alone to have a specialised cycle just for cleaning the tub.

Many manufactuerers here recommend that *IF* you only use liquid detergents *AND* only wash at temperatures below 60c (140F) then it is recommended that you run an empty wash at 60c or more with detergent roughly twice a year. As far as I know most Americans use only liquid detergents, and many machines there cannot wash at 140F or higher, which would explain the increased need for machine cleaning over there.

The 17 year old machine with a metal outer tub also uses about 3 times as much water as it's modern equivalent, yet is no less likely to have build ups or odours with proper use than a plastic tub, water thrifty machine.

It's just yet more marketing ploys as far as I can see.

Matt
 

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