Another FL or back to Top Load

[hoover1100]

but a good rinse

won't stop mould and gunk from building up due to low temp washing and use of liquid detergent.

If people weren't told they could wash in cold and use liquid all the time, there would be less of an issue.

Matt

 

[mrb627]

Liquid Detergents?

Who decided liquid detergents were bad? Why do they dominate the market if they are so bad?

Malcolm

 

[hoover1100]

They don't here

Powder is the main detergent of choice.

I believe liquid became the dominant form of detergent in the U.S. because it dissolves quicker in a top loader and gets dispersed through the load faster.

The reason it is so bad is that it dosen't contain oxi-bleach, niether do colour friendly detergents. I *think* it may even be the case that a lot of U.S. powdered detergents lack it as well, unless specifically stated (Tide with Bleach)

I say liquids because it's easier than writing down all the non oxi bleach containing detergents. Should have been more specific i guess.

These detergents are fine to use on coloured clothes and delicates, but whites and clothes that need more sanitation need oxi-bleach, as does the machine to prevent gunk and mould and such.

Ofcourse the other popular alternative in the U.S. is chlorine, but front loaders are not designed for the use of chlorine, as it is rarely used in laundering clothes in Europe, and if it is then certainly not in the machine, and it can damage them over time.

So using one of these detergents and then adding oxi-bleach on white and light coloured loads, as well as towels and cloths and heavily soiled coloureds has the same effect, but, over here at least, it is far cheaper to just buy a powdered detergent containing it, and a seperate detergent suitable for coloureds.

Another point I've found is that out of the detergents suitable for colours, the powdered varities leave clothes cleaner and fresher than even the best liquids, yet still don't fade colours. For this reason, I dislike liquids in any circumstance.

Matt

 

[norfolksouthern]

Definitely so, Hoover1100

Liquid "cold water" detergents fill the grocery isles, while the boxed powders suffer for space. And machines do get gunked up with fabric softener mixed with that liquid detergent. I did manage to flush out my Duet reasonably, and have no plans to use liquid detergents or the cold water setting. However, I have been using a very small amount of fabric softener, diluted. So far, I haven't had any problems with buildup. This system seems to work well for me. Commercial linen services use similar methods. My towels don't lack for absorbency, yet they come out soft enough to do a good polish on surfaces without scratching.

Still, I'm thinking about the restoration of that Zerowatt, if I can get enough parts to make it a "daily driver".

NorfolkSouthern

 

[hoover1100]

What is the average consumer supposed to do?

They are being told to buy front loaders, but powdered detergents take up a minimum or shelf space (I assume even less of this is "HE" powder) and they are being told they have to wash in cold water or it will be the end of the world as we know it. From what I have seen, oxi-bleach additives are marketed as "color safe" in the U.S., so of the bleach additives it is made to seem that only chlorine will suffice for whites.

It's no wonder so many machines are mouldy being used like this, and it's no wonder so many front loaders die of corroded drum spiders caused by chlorine bleach.

If people knew this was the case, and knew what to do in order to avoid these problems, I doubt many would continue doing their laundry this way.

Apart from having temp controlled hot settings where the temperature is too low, there isn't much else in the design of the machines that causes these problems.

The main way the maufacturers could help would be to explain the best ways to use these machines in the manuals, advise on temperature settings of hot water systems and to explain that it will take some getting used to coming from a toploader.

It would be like a European buying a toploader, packing the drum full, using a tiny dose of detergent, mixing delicate shirts with heavy trousers, and expecting everything to come out clean and fresh without excess wear or damage to the machine or clothes.

Matt

 

[toploader1984]

is it possible all of the problems with american detergents are because they do not contain phosphates anymore?

 

[dj-gabriele]

European detergents DO NOT contain phosphates and have no problems!

 

[launderess]

LCB & Front Loaders

Laundromat washing machines in the USA see far more chlorine bleach (front loaders of course), than anything at home and yet their parts do not decay. Why? Simply because they are not built and designed on the cheap.

Like it or not Americans are wedded to chlorine bleach and aren't likely to give the stuff up, so washing machine makers have had to find ways to work around the problem. MieleUSA, who fought a long and hard battle against the trend, in the end finally just gave up the ghost and submitted.

There is no getting around the fact that front loading washing machines cost more to design and produce than top loaders. More still if they are to last longer than the few years (if that), one sees with most current offerings. Just compare the cheapest offering from say Wascomat to a Duet or some such.

If it weren't for governments pushing energy savings, most Americans probably wouldn't bother with front loaders. Worse, just when they started to drift over to the other camp. stronger still energy restrictions were imposed on all washers, even front loaders to the point they are just as "damaging" to laundry as some top loaders.

 

[mrb627]

I still do not believe the problem is with the detergents.

The machine is usually to poor a rinser; unable to flush the dirt and detergents away. This in turn causes the belief that you must use less which makes the detergent less able to hold soil in a solution and be flushed away which eventually leads to a soiled and smelly washer.

Having a heating element is a double edged sword. You want the water hot enough to excite the enzymes in the detergent, but get it too hot and the enzymes die and the detergent will foam excessively. This in turn causes poor rinsing. And can damage your machine as well.

 

[launderess]

"DO NOT contain phosphates "

Oh yes some of them do, though they are becoming far and few between.

In some areas of Europe, there simply isn't any other way for a powdered detergent to deal with water that is hard as a rock, without phosphates.

Hard water is even worse for European front loaders as the lime scale and other mineral deposits will coat and eventually corrode the heating elements.

One reason for the increase in liquid and gel detergents in Europe,is the surfactants used in those products are not affected by water hardness, thus eliminating need for phosphates. Such systems also use citric acid as well, instead of STPP.

As the EU has Zeolites fixed in it's cross hairs, look to either a larger share of liquids/gels or perhaps more phosphates (where allowed).

 

[hoover1100]

Indeed

There does seem to be an assumption that European detergents contain phosphates. This has not been the case for at least 10 years or so now.

Having found some old phosphated Persil bio a while back, I tried it and found the results were no better than with the modern phosphate free formula. The detergent may have deteriorated as it would have been around 10 years old but it was fully sealed so I doubt it. I also don't recall any complaints of clothes being less clean since detergents went phosphate free, and do not recall experiencing this myself.

It's been a long time since I've used a U.S. detergent, but I do get the impression on here that they tend to give somewhat lacklustre performance, I cannot say for sure if that is the case or not, it's just the impression I get from reports on here.

Matt

 

[hoover1100]

Well if it were caused by bad rinsing

Then why is it old machines, often using well over 200 litres (53 Gallons) of water and using most of that in the rinse can still get mould and residue built up when used without a form of bleach and only at low temperatures, despite the fact they always rinse perfectly?

Also it isn't only enzymes that need to be taken into consideration, higher temperatures improve sanitation, therefore reducing build up, mould and smells as well as activating oxi-bleach better which improves sanitation furthermore as well and stain removal and whiteness. Higher temperature washes do not suds more than lower temperatures (with our detergents at least) so it does not lead to poorer rinse results.

Matt

 

[dj-gabriele]

Look, I do now want to lack of respect but all washing machine detergents here in Italy (and by extension, as the law is the same) are phosphates free at least since 2007, the first time I bothered to check the compositions.
All the (UK) Ariel and Persil are phosphate free too. Also German one is free of them...

 

[mrb627]

Older machines

I have never run into an older machine that had a stinky mould problem like the current machines of today. As a matter of fact, I had never even heard of having a mould problem until these uber front loaders hit the market. But you make it sound like your machines are no better than ours. That's good to know....

Malcolm

 

[hoover1100]

Only if..

They aren't properly used.

Try running an old Maytag or Kenmore with only cold water and no detergent other than a cheapy liquid for a good few months.

I'm certain you would see gunk if you opened it up.

Matt

 

[ronhic]

Detergents in combination with fabric conditioner AND cooler washing temperatures will cause a revolting grey buildup in machines....

Liquid detergent has a higher 'fat' content than powder and less 'harsh' chemicals which is why, though I can't find the reference, it in particular in combination with heavier softeners contributes to this problem. Pity we can't run a test with 2 identical machines etc and run one with powder and conditioner and the other with liquid and conditioner.

Fisher and Paykel even acknowledge it in the owners manuals and have applied the term 'scrud' to it.

Refer page 30.

http://www.fisherpaykel.com.au/admin/pdfs/pdf_usecares/420785A_IW_UC.pdf

 

[mrb627]

Actually I have

I grew up in a household that had cold water hookup to the washer only. Lived in that house for 20+ years and never had an issue with gunk in our washing machine.

Used a variety of detergents, usually whatever was cheapest. Still no gunk in our top loader and our clothes were clean.

So, what were you saying?

Malcolm

 

[hoover1100]

Temperature of incoming water will have had an impact on this, as will wether the detergents contained oxi-bleach or not.

Also use and type of fabric softner, as well as ventilation of the machine play a part, as does water hardness.

Fact of the matter is I have seen many pictures of older toploaders on here that have been dismantled only to find a huge amount of gunk and slime in them, so obviously it does occur in these machines as well.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic here or start up the pointless top load V. front load debates. I was merely trying to point out that with proper use and care no machine needs a "clean washer" cycle, and that I believe it is just added to ease the worries of people who have been put off these machines by horror stories of filthy machines, even though has far as I'm concearned this is almost certainly caused by misuse of the machine and of detergents/additives.

Matt

 

[favorit]

Enzymes and heating element

Malcom,
that problem (too fast heat up killing enzymes) is possible only in those stoneage frontloaders that heat straight up to the target temperature (e.g. those vintage mieles that boil within 6 minutes starting from tap-cold water)

Modern frontloaders use profile heating, meaning that the heating elements pauses @ 105 - 120°F for 15 mins then engages again to reach the target temp

 

[appnut]

perpetuating cold water washes even more

I noticed the new LG-produced Kenmore & Kenmore Elite machines offer a featured cycle called Cold Clean.