Another FL or back to Top Load

[hoover1100]

"Even the big Mieles don't qualify"

I was under the impression the material used in the outer tubs of the large U.S. Miele's was the same material used to make the hulls of yachts. Can anyone confirm this?

As for rinsing, yes, some modern front loaders don't really rinse well, however, I don't personally feel a single rinse with a spray rinse in a top loader is really effective enough, having seen a number of videos of them on youtube with cloudy rinse water and suds on top has confirmed that to me. They probably do rinse clearer if used more carefully, but I wouldn't call it perfect. I'm sure they leave clothes plenty soft enough and will not aggravate skin irritations, but this is also true of the poorest rinsing front loaders when they are used properly.

As for modern front loaders wearing clothes out faster, well in the dryer the clothes are tumbled for relatively long periods of time, with high temperatures, continuous fast tumbles and no water at all yet no one complains they damage fabrics, despite having to scrape worn off fibres from the lint filter when it's done.

I haven't had clothes damaged by any machine, I use shorter cycles unless clothes are really heavily soiled, but I think the majority of fabric wear happens when clothes are being worn rather than in the washer.

I would put poorer wash results of U.S. front loaders to be down mainly to the fact they try to make them work in the same time as a top loader, but also the fact U.S. detergents are really formulated for top loader use (even the HE ones) and lack of sufficient control over temperature. After 30mins a huge (slightly overloaded) load of thick absorbant cottons and my Mum's Whirlpool may still be topping up with water to soak the load down. In many U.S. front loaders water consumption (per kg of clothes) is about the same, yet on some machines even a heavy duty main wash lasts a mere 15 mins, so when filled like a front loader can be, the load isn't toally soaked down by the end of the wash!

Machines can wash perfectly in the tiny amounts of water they use now, but the wash times have to be increased. Your average Euro wash time has gone fron under an hour in the 80s to over 2 hours in some cases today, due to lower water consumption. This dosen't matter here because of our laundry habits. Where an American may wash say, 7 loads on one day every week, a European would typically put one load on every day of the week, then go out, go to work, go to bed, or just go and do something else, so it really dosen't matter how long a cycle lasts to us on the whole. Also, for less heavily soiled clothes far shorter cycles can be used.

Matt

 

[hoover1100]

Oh yeah...reliability

Well I would have said a front loader is a more simple design, but I think that depends on what you're used to. I could open up a front loader and be relatively comfortable with what everything is and where everything is, stick a top loader in front of me and I wouldn't have a clue!

I think it's fair to say, with the exception of Miele, quality has dropped accross the board, but so has cost. Some modern machines may be expensive, but only because of their modern styling, millions of buttons and lights, pretty colours and claimed features and benefits. As a result of this, their percieved value to the consumer is higher. Take a machine like that and make it to Miele standards and it would cost a small fourtune, as early automatics did.

I guess your average "shredmore" will last a fair bit longer than some of these new designs, but the are essentially 27 year old machines inside right? A front loader that was designed 27 years ago would last longer than most modern designed ones too.

The finger of blame is often pointed at the use of increased use of plastics and modern electronic controls. If plastics of good enough quality are used, they can often replace many aspects of a machine that were previously metal with no consequences. Early electronic machines from the 70s/80 and those of quality such as Miele do last as long as your average mechanical timer, it's simply down to quality of parts, good design and good quality control, these are often overlooked in favour of producing a cheaper machine today. The manufacturer is not necessarily to blame, as they are only producing what the consumers *think* they want, as most have little to no idea of the build quality and longevity of the products they buy, and often just don't care.

Matt

 

[mrb627]

Clean Washer Cycle

Even Miele has fallen into the "You must clean the inside of the machine once a month" with their Clean Washer Cycle. A process that doesn't seem neccessary when the outer tub is stainless steel or porcelain.

It isn't a durability issue with the "plastic" outer tub but more that gunk will cling to it.

Seems every time I crack open a Whirlpool DD washer that is more than a couple years old, the upper portion of the outer wash tub is black with gunk. YUCK!

Malcolm

 

[launderess]

Actually, Well No

Tumble drying is *NOT* the same as laundring clothing in a front loading washing machine.

With a tumble dryer, unless overly loaded, air is supposed to move around and through the clothing, this tis what dries them. This air to an extent does provide some cushioning, though one supposes if someone crammed a dryer full there would be heavy wear on clothing.

Dryer drums are also much larger for load sizes than H-Axis washing machines. This is one reason why "combo" units normally do very poorly when it comes to drying. The tub is just too small for all but a small load of laundry to move freely, thus allowing air to get at the laundry, and dry it.

As for Miele...

Read reports on both sides of the pond in consumer magazines. Though probably streets ahead of some other brands, Miele has had it's share of problems, especially with units sold/shipped to the North American market. Also for the dear cost of parts and call out costs, Miele appliances darn well better give good service. One or two out of warranty calls and one just may be better off buying a new (but lower priced) unit.

Rinsing:

My little Whirlpool does give quite good results, even with only three spray rinses and one deep rinse. Again loading is key and proper use of chemicals. I always do two rinses in a top loader anyway, but that's me for you.

Have also done several spin rinses in a Hoover TT, and that did well enough that water was clear when laundry was either bunged into the main tub for a deep rinse, or into the Miele for same.

Will give you that today's top loading washing machines are by and large near rubbish, with perhaps the exception of SQ and a few others. Restrictions on energy use and such have robbed the units of what they need, large amounts of water to wash and rinse laundry. Of course the alternative is to do smaller loads, but Americans as a lot tend to wish to get wash day over with quickly. No sense in having a "large" or "super" capacity top loader if you can only do "medium" wash loads.

L

 

[dj-gabriele]

Clean washer cycle!

It's unnecessary regardless of what the outer tub is made of!
I have yet to see an European machine that requires that.
I had a look at my father's Dreamspace (that's the European Duet, rated at 11kg!) and it never mentions a cleaning cycle.

And if you want a machine with a stainless steel outer tub, btw, get a SMEG made one (forget those ugly speed queens) nor one of the outsourced machine from Beko or B/S/H. This is all steel, inside and outside. (and doesn't require refresh cycles)

For the rest, Matt expressed my opinion perfectly too.

http://www.smeg.it/International/Catalogue/Product/WDF16BAX1.aspx?SID=1451382

 

[mrb627]

Clean Washer Cycle

Whether or not you believe it is uneccessary or not, the manufacturer, Miele, has gone out of their way to add that cycle to the latest models.

The SMEG is CUTE, I'll give you that. The Speed Queen Imperial is all stainless steel inside and out and doesn't require a clean machine cycle either.

Malcolm

 

[danmantn]

Yep, never seen a "clean" cycle on the laundromat machines.

 

[hoover1100]

Clean washer cycle

Most probably added as it can be pushed as an extra "feature" to attract consumers, especially those who have been put off by the reports of "smelly washers" that are a result of misuse of the machine rather than a design fault or a problem all front loaders have.

I'm certain if you have a machine with a "clean" cycle and never use it, but use the machine properly, you will never need it.

Matt

 

[mrb627]

Clean Cycle

Seems to me that only machines with plastic outer tubs have this clean cycle. This includes high efficiency top loaders as well.

And just because the machine doesn't smell doesn't mean that the machine is clean. The Whirlpool DD machines that I have worked on that are GROSS inside don't smell bad.

Malcolm

 

[favorit]

@ Launderess - thanks .... have you ever tried plain kitchen salt & cold water on blood stains ?

@ Gabriele : the euro Duets - Maxy 100 and Dreamspace - can boilwash @ 95°C .
The big american 110 V mieles don't heat beyond 70°C ("sanitize" temp)

@ Malcom : also european mieles now require cleaning cycles in case of cold washes .... here an excerpt from the W5928 booklet [ http://www.miele.co.uk/Resources/OperatingInstructions/W 5928 wps.pdf ] :

"Extra cleaning
Carry out a hot wash (70°C or above)
with powder detergent approx. every 6
weeks to help prevent deposits building
up in the machine. These can occur
when washing is mainly done at low
temperatures, and can lead to
unpleasant smells. If you have no
reason to wash occasionally at this high
temperature, then run a Cottons 95°C
programme with detergent but no
laundry at regular intervals."

Miniwashers ?!? Then this E'lux is a MICRO washer . even Candy produces these "Barbie" washers (check link). My little niece saw one of these in a big box store while shopping with my sister. She guessed it's a toy and wrote to Santa she wanted it ! ))

http://www.candy.it/popup/aquamatic/index.html?keepThis=true&TB_iframe=true&height=410&width=714

 

[hoover1100]

Seems to me that only machines with plastic outer tubs have

Yes, but what percentage of machines sold now have plastic outer tubs? Very few have tubs made of other matierials, so I'd put that down mostly to chance.

Have seen machines with both plastic and stainless steel or enamel outer tubs that are mouldy and smelly.

I have regular use of a machine with a metal outer tub and 2 machines with plastic outer tubs. With a hot towels wash every so often and powdered, oxi bleach containing detergent and keeping the door open between cycles means there is never a need to run a cleaning cycle, let alone to have a specialised cycle just for cleaning the tub.

Many manufactuerers here recommend that *IF* you only use liquid detergents *AND* only wash at temperatures below 60c (140F) then it is recommended that you run an empty wash at 60c or more with detergent roughly twice a year. As far as I know most Americans use only liquid detergents, and many machines there cannot wash at 140F or higher, which would explain the increased need for machine cleaning over there.

The 17 year old machine with a metal outer tub also uses about 3 times as much water as it's modern equivalent, yet is no less likely to have build ups or odours with proper use than a plastic tub, water thrifty machine.

It's just yet more marketing ploys as far as I can see.

Matt

 

[favorit]

Hi Matt,
if i'm not wrong i read on the german forum that american mieles outertub is fiberglass as in the latest continental Miele toploaders (W600 series)

 

[mrb627]

It's just yet more marketing ploys as far as I can see.

Exactly. It is bad marketing. And poor/cheapened manufacturing.

Why is this concept of cleaning your washing machine so new? Did the machines of the 70's and 80's need cleaning?

It would seem to me that if a washing machine is doing its job, the dirt and crud should be washed away. Not stuck to the inside of the machine. I mean if the machine cannot get the dirt out of itself, how is it getting it all out of my clothes?

So where is the fault? Lack of water? Lack of detergent? Lack of temperature? Poor machine design? Poor detergents?

Malcolm

 

[hoover1100]

It has nothing to do with the design of the machines

It's a combination of low temperatures and poor detergents. The problem didn't exist when people used powdered detergent and did regular hot washes. If you do this, the machine does wash all the dirt and crud away.

The blame lies mainly with the detergent manufacturers for not telling people that powdered detergent and oxi-bleach is required for whites and light coloureds, as well as towels and clothes that need more sanitation and cleaning. It's also their fault for telling people they can wash everything in warm or cold water, without pointing out that the same clothes I mention for requiring powdered detergent also require regular hot washes.

The maufactuers of the machines themselves are also to blame, in that they do not explain to their consumers how to use their products properly. They do not explain that liquid detergents should not solely be used and they do not explain that regular hot washes should be done. I suppose the only way in which the design of these machines can be blamed is that some U.S. machines add cold to the hot fill on "hot", so it is never over 130F (50C), which is not adequately hot

These things are a bi-product of the drive to be "green", it is not intentional and it is only done out of best intentions. The problem is the message has been misinterpreted. Lightly soiled clothes , delicates and dark colours can be washed in cold water, and a liquid detergent can be used for these. The suggestion that doing this could have a positive environmental impact has led to people thinking all their laundry should be done like this, hence they have dirty washers.

Matt

 

[danmantn]

A friend of mine refuses to wash in ANYTHING but cold. She lives in Alaska--I can only imagine what her machine looks like.

So, I keep hearing that powder is the way to go. Personally I prefer powder most of the time. But what is magical about the powder and a clean washer? I would assume powders are more abrasive on clothing...but not sure about the machine. I think most modern day detergents are horrible. I'm very selective in what I use as most make my clothes feel waxy or actually make them smell worse (liquid Tide and liquid Gain). Both of those have the cheapest smelling perfumes. I use to be a Gain fan, but not anymore.

 

[norfolksouthern]

Quote from Laundress:

<blockquote>"Rinsing:

My little Whirlpool does give quite good results, even with only three spray rinses and one deep rinse. Again loading is key and proper use of chemicals. I always do two rinses in a top loader anyway, but that's me for you."</blockquote>

Yes, of course your little Whirlpool gives good rinsing results. It "only" has three spray rinses and a DEEP rinse. The "ONLY" is a big word here, fellas.

NorfolkSouthern

 

[danmantn]

I've never understood why rinse cycles are so short--has always seemed a big waste of water for such a short process. I wonder what the average rinse (agitation) is on a TL? 3 mins, 5 mins, 2?

 

[norfolksouthern]

The deep rinse on my Whirlpool portable takes about 4 minutes. This happens after THREE spray rinses during a 950 RPM spin extraction. The rinse is followed by another 950 RPM spin extraction with ANOTHER three spray rinses. The cloths come out almost as dry as they would from my Duet, with barely a trace of scent left, if any. And, they even take less time in the dryer due to the decreased load size. But, the Duet has a definite advantage over the top loader for winter coats, comforters, pillows, and other larger articles. The Duet will also handle jeans with less struggle.

NorfolkSouthern

 

[mrb627]

Detergent Manufacturers

I think it is wrong to lay the blame with the detergent manufacturers. They don't get to decide how the machine that they are used in will work. How much water. How many rinses. I believe the machines are at fault.

Of course we are now beginning to see the addition of better rinse options on the newer model machines. Perhaps we are headed in the right direction.

Malcolm

 

[askomiele]

About rinsing...

I was thinking about starting a new thread about this, but hah maybe I just could post it here. During hollidays I work a few days at an industrial laundry. Because of an increased amount of customers they decided to change from washer extractors to CBW (continous batch washers). These machines carry out prewash, mainwash and rinsing in a single tube with different pockets (batches). When I was their brochures i was attracted to this thing. Kannegiesser (Germany Machinery Company) introduces a JET-press or centrifuge. The CBW consists only of a prewash and 3 wash chambers. The rinsing proces is carried out in the press or centrifuge. Maybe it's an idea to change some minor thing on a frontloader to carry out this type of rinseproces... and maybe without the hit and mis sprayrinsing on a toploader, this could do the trick.