Anyone else afraid of nuclear energy?

[sudsmaster]

Well yes, but...

Nuclear power plants don't have quite as long a track record as fossil fuel power plants.

Additionally, the potential for a major catastrophe from a nuclear accident is far greater than it would be for any single accident at a conventionally fueled plant. It's all well and good to point to the nuclear power industry's generally good safety record. However, it's a truism that all mechanical things eventually break down, and a nuclear power plant is, among other things, a hugely complex gigantic mechanical thing. There are also issues with safe transport and storage of nuclear fuel and nuclear waste, which to this day are still unresolved.

Finally... last time I looked into this, nuclear power plants have been money losers for utilities. Rate payers have had to pay extra surcharges to help the utilities recover their costs of running and decommissioning these plants. And the plants eventually wear out - the high radiation levels take their toll on components, even highly advanced metal alloys, and you just can't send in a plumber to replace a decomposed cooling line in a highly radioactive core. As a result, these plants can be considered disposable and extremely hazardous waste.

 

[sudsmaster]

I'm also reminded of the fiasco that revolved around the Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power plant in middle California. After years of opposition from a growing environmental movement, the plant went ahead and was installed on a scenic stretch of coastline - sending warm cooling water into a normally icy ocean, raising concerns about temperature effects on the local marine life.

The fiasco was that as construction was well along, it was realized that someone had created a mirror image of the entire cooling system, and that this incorrect version was what was being manufactured and installed. All of it had to be ripped out and restarted from scratch, at a huge cost.

Oh, and I think the plant is waay too close to major fault line. Details, details...

At the same time, I recognize that eventually we'll have little choice but to rely increasingly on nuclear energy to replace fossil fuels and a limited supply of "renewable" energy. I just don't think nuclear is as risk-free as is sometimes painted.

 

[neptunebob]

But Rich, Diablo Canyon is one of the better looking plants!

You might want to look at the Areva website. They are the French nuclear manufacturer and it is very informative. It is my understanding that some nuclear plants can be "relicensed" to last another 20 years by replacing some of the parts inside. That is what the people in our neighborhood working for Westinghouse tell me.

I would have had a career in nuclear energy myself, inspired by my Aunt Edith the science teacher. But calculus I just didn't know and that drafting made me antsy (just looking at the Hobart hinge drawings was enough to give me a panic attack!).

Areva is building this EPR - The European Pressurized water Reactor in Finland. I believe if they want to build this unit in the United States they better lose the European name. BTW, if it means anything, I live 30 miles from the two Beaver Valley units. (Oh, Oh, maybe I better run).

http://www.areva.com

 

[neptunebob]

Now, for professor Barry.....

Have you heard about Areva's European Pressurized water Reactor? They are building it in Finland, a cold country that probably needs the energy. Do you have many students in your program? Also, is GE your favoite brand for such plants (I know it is a boiling water reactor, different from Aveva and Westinghouse).

Areva has a film on their website about building the EPR, "50 months in 300 seconds". It has dramatic music, just like a school movie.

BTW, I wonder, is Babcock and Wilcox, the builder of Three Mile Island, still around? If not, won't it be hard to get parts for plants like these?

http://mms//multimedia2.arevagroup.com/framatome/EPR/50mois_300s_eng_2005.wmv

 

[sudsmaster]

Bob,

It's funny. I wound up getting my 4 year college degree in Biochemistry - I had never taken a drafting class, and although I did quite well in the math and physics requirements for my degree, I avoided the engineering fields for somewhat silly reasons.

Fast forward some 30 years, and after getting burned out on a computer career, I went back to school and got three certificates in machining. Part of that requirement was drafting, and I really enjoyed it. It was my first drafting class, ever. I even enjoyed the old-school requirement to spend a couple of weeks just doing lettering. I soon realized what a mistake it had been for me to avoid this part of learning and creating. But, better late than never.

The drawings I posted were jpeg versions of a model I created with a computer program called Solid Works. It's a wonderful application that allows one to build things in 3D first, and then one can create drawings - more or less automatically - from the 3D models. You can do assemblies, check for fits/interferences, etc. A pencil need never touch paper ;-).

 

[tolivac]

Like Barry's entry-He has a good point--Nuclear energy has had a good safety record during its history.Like the idea of the Advanced Boiling water reactor boiler--the ceramic fuel rod casings have promise-with newer technology the safety of Nuke power can be improved even more-we just have to do something about the human factor-reactor operation engineers making mistakes.--and some who want to "experiment" with the reactor-remember power reactors ARE NOT research reactors.Its something you don't want to play "Mr Wizard" with like what happened at Cherynobl.I really feel Nuclear power needs another goood look and another chance.We can DO WORSE by not using it.we also have an abundance of nuclear fuel ore in the US.Remember in power generation--try to use the fuels most near and abundant in the area.And yes Bacock & Wilcock is still with us-One of the oldest boiler makers still in use today.I can't remember where-but there was a small B&W boiler built in 1898-A small plant boiler for LP steam heat-was still in use today!!It passed safety tests-was still usable.Its is a book about boilers I have at home somewhere.I thought the 3D drawings of the dishwasher door hinges were beautiful--Machinning is rapidly becoming a lost art in the US-I am glad Sudmaster is trying to preserve it.With the advent of "service Jobs" and industrial arts type jobs on the downslide-I don't like the trend --Machiningis a fascinating feild.Wish I could study it more-the plant where I work has a machine shopand yes has those basic machine tools-lathes and a vertical mill.also have a sheet metal brake and a motorized "kick shear"for cutting sheet metal-have used that a lot.Just need a refrresher on the lathe and mill-last time I used those was in high School metal shop.I also use the "DoAll" metal cutting bandsaw--on high speeds-cuts wood too--and well.It can cut metal to several inches thick.Armor plate fabricators LOVE their DoAlls.Also the "chop type" bandsaws.Very handy.

http://www.babcock.com

 

[neptunebob]

Dramatic Areva video brings up questions...

Hi all, I just checked the link for the computer animated video but it doesn't seem to work. So go to the main Areva web site and toward the left there is a little search box. Type in "50 months in 300 seconds" and you will be able to play the video, which with it's dramatic music begins a little like "Star Wars". The whole video is animated, and the men they show - and they are all men - look like they all work out, maybe even take a few steroids.

Now for Barry the professor: In the middle of the video, after the reactor is completed but not turned on yet, they show men in a control room with all the controls lit up. But how is that possible if the reactor isn't even on yet? Also they shows a "turbine startup test". But again, how is that possible without steam from the reactor which isn't even fueled yet (that comes next, after "reactor pool filling")?

Toward the end of the video, when the reactor is turned on, the music is heavy drumming like "Stomp". Nep

http://www.areva.com

 

[sudsmaster]

It's true, the US has lost a lot of production machining jobs to Asia and elsewhere. However, the entire field has been chaniging for the past 20 years or so. A lot of old-school machinists couldn't or wouldn't upgrade their skills to include CNC (or computer controlled) machining methods. So they found themselves in dead ends - higher pay but less demand. But ... in the place of large production runs what I've been seeing is more stuff from R&D and "one-offs" for prototypes. These require skill in both traditional machining and CNC. This is stuff that it just wouldn't be economical to send to another country - especially when there may need to be a series of prototypes made with changes between each one as the R&D folks figure out what works best. Then, of course THAT may eventually get sent out to a cheap labor country for mass production.

Also intriguing is the creation of one-off or limited runs of parts to restore old collector machines - whether they be appliances or cars or other nifty devices. With old cars, like some appliances, some parts are simply no longer available, and the ability to create a replacement part as needed can be very handy.

 

[tolivac]

Thats the idea of the machine shop at the site where I work-The tools could be used to make transmitter parts that are NLA.Instead we have been contracting machine shops to do some of the parts.We can make the simpler ones.Some of the equipment here was built in the 40'sbut still in use.I am using it right now-all of those pretty tubes inside!!-and pumping out 250Kw of power.

 

[neptunebob]

Rodney Says:

Can produce as much energy as eight metric tons of coal" - with a Canadian accent. Here's another dramatic nuclear-powered video.

Speaking of machine shops, did you know that up until the 80s the Westinghouse plant in East Pittsburgh was one of the largest machine shops in the world? But forgive me, I didn't even know what a "machine shop" was until I started watching "American Chopper", I just know a lot of our neighbors worked there.

http://www.areva.com/servlet/Conten...orporateFullTemplate&c=Page&cid=1034149659343

 

[petek]

Canadians don't have accents, you do.. LOL

 

[mixfinder]

Fear of the Cloud

I grew up as a "Downwinder" in the shadow of Hanford Nuclear Reactor. I support a generous flow of energy at low cost. We have manipulated so many resources into serving us, it seems odd we pick this one to get freaky about. Does it not bother you that we breathe gas fumes all day, sit under powerlines with leaking ozone, eat convenience food filled with chemicals and substitute man made item for ones provided by nature to nourish our bodies? Where and how could we ever prove which factors are killing us at this point. Me, I have no fear and want to live with out restrictions, warm and with electrical assist. Keep me warm, happy and GLOWING and put some money back in my budget that oil industries are sucking out. We work so hard in the US to be polically correct and save the whales and some cultures around us could care less. I am weary of the burden of always having to be wrong and fix the world for everyone else. I just want easy or Easy, any model.
Kelly

 

[neptunebob]

OK, I stand corrected about accents....

But if you want to hear Rodney be sure to click on the "energy experts" line on the website. Also, try www.us.areva.com, it has the "Funkytown" commercial and talks about how they made it. Most of the people there speak French (with English subtitles). Nep

http://www.us.areva.com

 

[sudsmaster]

Machine shops come in many sizes and shapes. It all depends upon the work they are tasked with doing. A mschine shop devoted to automotive work will look rather different from one designed to produce or repair large electricity generator turbines. However the traditional general purpose machine shop will generally have at least one lathe, one vertical mill, a bandsaw of some kind (I'm partial to having at least one vertical and one horizontal band saw), a drill press, and various bench top tools like arbor presses, bench vices, etc... Modern machine shops often have shoved the manual equipment over to the side, to make way for much larger CNC controlled mills and lathes.

On a recent visit to a local machine tool liquidator, I saw a very unique piece of equipment. It was an older massive Milwaukee tool and die vertical mill with all sorts of extra rotating features - enough to duplicate many of the motions that CNC machines are designed to produce, but all via mechanical controls. It has one glaring problem (besides being rather complex to operate): the largest cutter it can hold is only 5/8" diameter.

 

[tolivac]

The shop at where I work is fairly small-almost reminds one of a High School shop.It has a couple of Clausing lathes,and an Index Vertical mill.One of the employees was very good at using the mill.He even has one at his home-he used them to rebuild one of his tractors.Was machining tractor parts.We usually use them to build transmitter parts.And the shop has a Sheet metal shear,a sheet metal brake.And the shop has one "DoAll" vertical bandsaw-love using it-has variable speeds-on high speeds cuts wood very nicely.and two Horizontal band saws-"Chop saws"I have used them to cut many metal parts to size-like when making water level sensor electrodes for the GE transmitters.And oh yes a drill press.We have several drill presses about this plant-one in the electronics shop,another in the machine shop,and another in the garage,and yet a fourth in the building HVAC equipment room.They are vintage Powermatics.Power tool collectors would LOVE this place.Most of the tools are from the early 60's.

 

[sudsmaster]

The Clausing is a good lathe. We have one at our shop where I work, but it's seen a lot of hard use and could use a rebuild. I've heard the Index mills are also quite good. And the Doall verical band saw is a good machine as well.

 

[tolivac]

The machine tools here lead a pretty easy life-thats why they have lasted so long-they don't get used every shift like in a factory.At present we don't have enough people to use them all the time!However some of the cutters for the mill are getting dull.-and its belts will need to be replaced at some time.The belts slip when you try to do a heavy cut that it would normally make-that and the dull blades.No one has requesioned any because its used so infrequently.

 

[sudsmaster]

HSS cutters can be resharpened, although it usually alters their diameter. And of course the drive belt can be tightened or replaced - although that would depend on whether or not this is a belt-pulley drive head or a variable speed head.

Tell you what - you pay for shipping and I'll take that troublesome mill off your hands ;-)

 

[tolivac]

The mill isn't mine-its the US govts.We don't want to get rid of it-its still useful.Its fine for the occasional jobs it has to do.I would bet the belts could be tensioned-haven't really looked at it to see if they could be adjusted-that me be all it needs.Its the belt drive head.Its much like what you would see on a drill press-the stepped "cone" pulleys and two belts.One from the motor to a center pulley-then another belt from the center pulley to the cutter shaft.The facilities man uses it more than we do-the fellow who does the building maintenance.

 

[bwoods]

Forgive my delay in response to your questions Bob, et. al., I hadn't been following up on the thread.

Tolivac answered your questions about Babcock-Wilcox. They are still active as a boiler making company and also produce steam generators for PWR (pressurized Water Reactors).

They still provide some support for the nuclear industry, but no longer actively design or build nuclear power plants. They were the number three company in the U.S. building nuclear power plants (behind Westinghouse and GE.)

As far as the start-up test on the turbines, without the reactor being critical and producing steam...plants generally have small auxillary boilers, that are coal or gas fired. These are used to provide steam for the start up testing for the turbines and generators. (They want to make sure everything is functioning before the reactor goes live, or "critical".

Even though the reactor itself has not gone critical, there are many other systems in the plant that are live. Radiation/safety monitoring systems, turbine systems, generator systems. systems to monitor the power grid the plants feeds into, etc.

Long before the reactor is brought on line, the control room will be lit up like a Christmas tree during the preliminary, start up and test phases.

In answer to your question about GE BWR's. Yes, personally I like the GE BWR over Westinghouse's and Babcock-Wilcox PWR's.

In the BWR systems steam is taken directly from the reactor core and delivered to the turbines.

In the PWR you have an extra loop. Steam from the reactor core goes to a steam generator, which you might compare to a radiator in a car, and heats water in a secondary loop and converts it to steam. The steam from the secondary loop then turns the turbines.

The GE BWR is simpler in concept and MUCH easier to operate, as you have less systems to monitor and control. They are very reliable.

The steam temperture and pressures are less than in a PWR and therefore less likely to cause a pipe rupture or damage.

The disadvantage is that the steam coming our of the reactor core is slightly radioactive, so the turbines need to be in a shielded building.

The Westinghouse/Babcock units have turbines in regular buildings as the steam, (theoretically) has never been in the reactor core and is not radioactive.

However, in reality, the thousands of small thin tubes in the steam generators many times develop leaks and contaminate the turbines anyway. Steam generators are the most trouble-prone part of a nuclear plant. Shutting down a steam generator to repair it is costly. Most PWR reactors have two steam generators. One can be shut down for repairs while the other can continue to operate.

Temperature and pressures are higher in the PWR, so you have a slightly higher operating efficiency.

The GE BWR's, though, have a slightly higher operating capacity factor due to greater reliability and less down time Usually in the high ninety percentiles. The GE Limerick power plant in Pensylvania has been operating in excess of designed capacity and has been given a 100.6% operating capacity rating.

PWR's usually are in the low to mid nineties in capacity factor.

Both BWR and PWR have operating capacity factors greater than fossil fired plants, which average 71% capacity factor or less.

That is why electricity from nuclear power plants (both BWR and PWR) cost so much less than that from oil, gas or coal.

Barry