"As the Water Heater Burns"

[beekeyknee]

Is no one going to say anything about my w/h project? Are w/h's not worth saving or are they too boring because they aren't animated or is the thread too long and the premise too silly? Maybe there's nothing to discuss?

I would think some of you techie geeks out there would be interested in this. You do have to jump around quite a bit to get through it, but that's just the way it turned out.

 

[pdub]

I thoroughly enjoyed the thread on your water heater replacement. You did such a good job detailing and explaining things that I guess most people had no questions.

Thanks for taking the time to document and share the information.

Patrick

 

[ozzie908]

I found it interesting ...

I have only ever seen one in the flesh as we do not have them in the UK.

Sadly I do not understand what the Anode is for ???

Someone please explain so I'm no longer confused

Austin

 

[beekeyknee]

Thanks, Patrick. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Austin- I gave you a link to galvanic corrosion in the thread 'Aggravated Again'. There is also a link in, 'As The Water Heater Burns'. It's a link to cathodic protection.

It is based on the ion exchange principle. It's used in softening water, electroplating, batteries, and so forth. Two elements placed in an electrolyte that have different numbers of electrons circling the element will make an exchange. This is a positive or negative effect, depending on what you want the outcome to be. In electroplating it's usually considered to be a positive effect, as well as in water softening. In batteries it's positive and negative. Positive in that it gives one an electromotive potential; negative in that the battery will eventually run down.

In an impressed current cathodic protection system the sacrificial metal anode is replaced with and anode that has an external power supply. Instead of the anode dissolving and giving up it's electrons to protect the cathode, a steady constant supply of electrons for current is present to supply the protection to the cathode (in this place the water tank) and does not diminish over time as a sacrificial anode dissolves. This is especially important with softened water as it has somewhat more sodium in it than non softened water. Since sodium increases the conductivity of the water, thus increasing the sacrifice of the anode, one can see how the impressed current on the anode would be beneficial.

This was the problem I was trying to solve, as our water is softened and the anode was disappearing at an alarming rate, rendering it useless.

This, along with the other links I gave you in my other two threads, are about the only way I know to explain this to you. Here is one more link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_exchange

 

[rickr]

WOW! Fascinating read, and detailed pictures! Wonder how long a modern water heater could last if one maintained it to this degree?

 

[fido]

Gate Valves

Apologies for going off topic but I noticed the red and blue gate valves supplying the washing machine. Is this normal practice in USA, as gate valves are only used in gravity, tank fed circuits in UK? I've only ever seen red ones but they are used on hot and cold, for example a typical UK electric water heating system would have a cold, open top tank feeding a sealed, insulated hot water cylinder via a gate valve.

 

[vintagekitchen]

Gate valves

If you are referring to the hot and cold water shut offs to the washing machine, yes, those are the type typically used. There are others, but those are the main ones I have ever seen in use.

Here in the US we don't have in house gravity systems, all our water pressure is from the street connection or if you have a well or cistern from the pressure tank (pump driven compression chamber type, not gravity). In the past some people with a rainwater cistern or a spring had an open tank gravity set up, rather than pumping the water to the house, but this was out doors, uphill from the house, rather than an in house system like in the UK.

One has always wondered why homes in the UK require an in house cold water tank for gravity fed water pressure, where in the US we have huge closed outdoor water tanks (water towers) every so many miles, to insure pressure along the lines.

 

[hydralique]

In many applications you can use gate valves or ball valves, most plumbers I know prefer ball valves as these are less prone to freezing up due to corrosion if used infrequently.

 

I've never investigated a British domestic water supply system but am amazed it would incorporate an open top tank! Surely there would be a cover to keep unwanted things out, and where would the tank be located and how big would it be?

 

[beekeyknee]

Thanks, Rick. I'm glad you enjoyed the thread. I imagine most w/h's could last for quite some time if properly installed and maintained, depending on the quality of the heater to begin with. I find that the older heaters were of higher quality and more dependable than the new ones, as is the case with most things these days.

 

[hydralique]

beekeynee,

Does this replacement heater have a sealed burner? I've had a few water heaters go out in the past few years, one only 5 years old, and it seems that the newer sealed burner units don't last as long as the old fashioned kind. The last one to go would work once it was lit but the pilot would go out when the burner turned off. After endless messing around I gave up and junked it. From what I can see all manufactuers now use these sealed units.

 

[beekeyknee]

Yes, I'm afraid so. After 2002 a government mandate required all gas w/h's to have flame-lock. I don't like it. It's troublesome and I don't think they burn as hot.

But because some stupid people like to pour out tremendous amounts of VOC's in their houses and blow themselves up we're all forced to live with this "fool-proof" design.

Personally I don't care if they blow themselves up. Thin the herd. Weed out the bad ones. Survival of the fittest or smartest in this case. Maybe the general IQ of the population would go up. We certainly need that.

"But we're not all stupid! We don't all need nursemaiding! Why not just have a stupidity tax? Just tax the stupid people!"

 

[beekeyknee]

I'm sorry. No, this heater doesn't have the flame-lock. What I meant to say was that they all have the flame-lock now. I have our old one with the flame-lock. I might play around with it and see if I can defeat it.

 

[hydralique]

I think it might have more to do with emissions as all the new water heaters have to be low NOx. I haven't noticed any difference in performance, but the sealed units surely seem less reliable over the long run. They are replaceable, but the cost for the burner unit is so high that it makes more sense to just buy a new heater.

[this post was last edited: 8/26/2012-18:51]

 

[beekeyknee]

Yes, the LO-NOx does come into play along with the flame-lock. They seal the burner to help lower emissions and to keep the flame away from flammables. This seems to result in a smaller flame and causes pilot lights to go out. The recovery rate is lower because it burns slower and smaller. It's just another example of the aggravations placed on us by the government.

 

[fido]

Quote hydralique:

"In many applications you can use gate valves or ball valves, most plumbers I know prefer ball valves as these are less prone to freezing up due to corrosion if used infrequently.

I've never investigated a British domestic water supply system but am amazed it would incorporate an open top tank! Surely there would be a cover to keep unwanted things out, and where would the tank be located and how big would it be?"

When I said open tank, these days there is normally a lid to keep out insects etc. and some insulation material to stop it freezing. It is normally in the roof space, mounted as high as possible to get the maximum head. It does not need to be as big as the hot tank as it is being refilled at the same time as it is feeding the hot tank. The system is mainly used for safety, to cope with expansion, a bit like the expansion tank on a car radiator but unpressurised. Even in UK it is now less common than sealed systems but it is still the standard for solid fuel heating / hot water circuits, again because of the safety aspect.

 

[hydralique]

Fido . . .

Thanks for the explanation. I'm assuming the tank isn't too large, probably 30-60 gallons for an average home, and has some kind of a float valve to keep it filled plus an overflow just in case. What happens if a house has no attic space, how is this handled?

 

[fido]

Combination Cylinders

Where space is limited there is a combination cylinder which has the cold tank mounted on top of the hot one. The head of water would be reduced but OK for the normal sinks and bath as long as the unit is mounted as high in the room as possible. It might give a fairly feeble shower from a normal mixer so you would probably have an electric instantaneous shower instead:

http://www.gasapplianceguide.co.uk/Direct and Indirect Cylinders Explained.htm

 

[jwpate]

I do realize that this thread is from a year and a half ago, but some of us are a little late.  Boy, do I appreciate beekeyknee taking the time and effort to open our eyes on this subject.  Thanks Brian, yet again, and I hope that getting this thread back on the front page will help some other member to get onboard with the water heater problems.

 

After reading the thread, I immediately ordered a few new anode rods from Bradford White, for my own water heater, which was installed in Fall of 2007.

 

For those new to the issue, this is what they look like.  This is a Magnesium rod identical to that which came with the water heater when new.  Only a foot or so is visible in the photo, but the rod is just under 43 inches long and roughly 3/4 inch diameter.

 

 

 

[jwpate]

So, after I received the new rods, I was naturally anxious to see what the original looked like after six and a half years.  And Brother, this is all that remains!  I did use a long magnet to search around inside the tank - but nothing was found there.

 

I should point out that here in Nevada we all use water softeners and that always eats up the anodes more quickly.  At least twice as quickly I am told.  Anyway, one look at this sad image makes it obvious that I have arrived far too late.  The water heater is still going along OK with heating the water, and no leaks so far.  But this image tells a bad, sad story of my failure to maintain the unit.

 

 

 

[jwpate]

Another weakness I now realize we all need to be concerned with is the silt buildup inside the WH as time goes by.  I have drawn off a gallon or so of water every six months or so, and watched for silt in the bucket.  Now I know, that what is really needed is a full power, wide open flow of water out the drain in an effort to get as much of it as possible out of there.  From here on out I shall do that - wide open for five minutes, say.

 

Still another concern is how much opening we have for the water to flow out.  So, just to check it I pulled off the original drain tap to have a look.

 

 

 

[jwpate]

And what I found certainly did surprise me.  This nasty looking mess is the inlet side of the tap.  Really clogged up with silt, crud and corrosion.

 

[jwpate]

And look at the output end!  That is less than half open.   Not much way to get the kind of flow we need through a tap such as this one has become.

 

So we will be switching to another style.

 

 

 

[jwpate]

This should help, at least somewhat, with getting the silt out.  The ball style valve is a straight route out, and a so called full-flow design.  That T fitting and extra pipe is the recirculating pump return, and has been there all along.

 

I may well have gotten with the program too late to save this water heater.  Will keep it going as long as possible though and use the experience to prepare for maintenance of the next one.

 

Put me down as a true believer, and thanks again to Brian for opening my eyes. 

 

[beekeyknee]

James,

Glad the w/h thread is helping. Many don't realize what problems w/h's can cause. Steer clear of aluminum anode rods and if particulate is found in hot water filter screens on appliances, be wary of sacrificial rods.

Brian

 

[whirlcool]

We have a Bradford White unit that was installed in 2004. It's up in the attic and a real pain to get to. We usually drain a little water out of our hot water tanks every few months but we haven't on this one yet. I wonder if it's too late? I should probably check the anode to see if any is left.

Our area water is very hard with lots of calcium in the water. A neighbor said he drained his tank one time and a chunk of calcium got stuck in the drain valve and jammed it open.

 

[tomturbomatic]

Thanks

WOW! Amazing. I will check out one of these electric anodes.

 

[beekeyknee]

That's usually the problem. Lack of space and especially overhead space to take out an anode rod. Plus you usually need a torque multiplier to get one out.

 

[whirlcool]

We have about 12 feet of space above our hot water tank, it's near a corner but I think we could get a 6 foot cheater bar in there to turn. I'm wondering if it's too late to do anything with it. Because it's up in the attic, companies usually charge about $800-900 for installation alone. The current one cost a grand total of $1350. installed.

 

[norgeway]

Its WONDERFUL to see..

Gas piped in iron pipe!! In NC you have to beg borrow and steal to get it done! Everyone hear is hooked on that damnable yellow flex and 2 pound systems!

 

[sudsmaster]

Perhaps the best way to inspect the innards of a water heate is to shut it off, drain it, and then poke a small flex camera into the opening to view the interior. I now have such a unit, and the next time I check the anode rod on my 30+ year old Monkey Ward 40 gallon, I'll be using it.

The heater works fine, doesn't leak, but tends to bump a bit when heating from time to time. I attribute this to sediment at the bottom, which I've tried several times to flush out. The camera will probably tell a better story. I worry that the cold water inlet tube may have deteriorated and pieces of it are bumping around the bottom of the tank. But then I haven't found any shreds thereof in the hot water faucet screens, either. Just in case I have a new cold water inlet tube ready to place into the heater the next time it's serviced.