Bad News About High Efficiency Washers

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Would it be this the solution!?

The level of water during the rinse cycles rises upper than the bearing, it would be half-window of the lid in FL.

Alwasy said! You save TL confort and get the FL efficiency with a machine like that...unfortunately they're not been produced any long...this was the first in the 50 and lasted in production until the 90...then no more!


9-19-2007-01-04-39--vivalalavatrice.jpg
 
Oh well, Diomede, one can always get a standard top-loader horizontal axis machine and put it long side against the wall and mimic yours ;)

I'm still too mad at TechniGeek to say anything even remotely different from an insult so I'd better stay silent!

I even wash cachemire swaters in my front loader! And stuff comes out clean and soft!
 
my comment...

Hi to all of you!
Here in Germany so called FLs (actually it's better to talk about tumbler-washers or h-axis washers than of FLs as there are many TLs that have the horizontal drum tumble action as well - see message from "vivalalavatrice" above) are the most popular and the only available machine-type here for over 30 years.
There are some left-overs (tub-washers) from the former German Democratic Republic as well as from the time of the 1950s-1960s available at Ebay's, but that is collectors stuff or they are made of full plastic and only constructed for the use on camping sites or in week-end domiciles.
It's right to say so that former h-axis models here in Germany from the time before 1980 used between 150-160 liters of water per load of 4-4.5kg dry weight of laundry or even more, too, but that was stopped by strict regulations of the law and nowadays we have come up to the point that the usage of wash-water is so restricted that in some models left-overs of detergent and/or fluff and sand are to be found after a wash on the garments. A progression that I cannot call for good! Some models meanwhile have the opportunity to rise the water-level for personal liking, though.
But never I've heard of residues in h-axis washing-machines under normal usage conditions throughout my life (45 years now) here. Only thing is, in some areas where water is extremely hard and people are not using enough powder that a furring-up condition on the heater-element may occur after some years that can shorten the life of it.

Concerning the toilets:
I've never seen toilets with worse flushing-effects than in the States! These vaccuum bowls need a tremendous amount of water but often after the flush still some paper is floating on top of the water surface...
Best to me are the in Germany called flat-flushing toilets where no formula is droping with a splash into the water underneath your ass, spilling water or water-urine mixture against your bottom...yakk!!
Flat-flushers use only 4-6 liters and were once the most popular and only known toilet bowls here in Germany. Deep-flushers came into fashion during the 1970-1980 in Germany and are nowadays the most installed toilets here but use twice as much water or need double flushing to get everything away. Although I have to admit that constructors have developed also bowls with much less water consumption today.
But I would not like to have these bowls in my house for medical reasons!
What about the yearly control for occult blood in the faeces? Does somebody here love to sit over a page of paper on the floor to get some faeces dry for that medical control? And what about the parental controlling of children's faeces for worms? This is not possible in deep-flushing bowls!

Ralf
 
Don't understand the problem

All I know is I had a Whirlpool Duet set for over 5 years. The washer cleaned beautifully, ran quietly, and spun the clothes nearly dry. I had NO problems with either the washer or dryer. Sold them 2 years ago and they are still in use with no problems.

Seems to me the problem with sludge would be caused from too much detergent. I've used Sears powder for over 30 years and never had a problem. There are no suds, but you can tell the soap is working by the feel of the water.

AND the front load Duet washer is German made.

Jerry Gay
 
I do believe that with front loaders some allowances for frictional wear on fabrics must be considered. This knowledge came to me after my mother washed a synthetic pullover sweater of mine with a bath towel because they were both gold in color. The sweater suffered severe pilling. This was in a 1970s Westinghouse front loader. Even with the higher water levels used in those machines and even though those were the only two items in the machine, there was rubbing If she had turned the sweater inside out, the piling would not have happened. I never noticed it on loads of similar weight and texture fabrics. Clothing damage in newer large tumbler washers might come from the user trying to cram everything in one super load and washing heavier fabrics with less sturdy fabrics and not closing zippers, etc. before washing. Sufficient detergent makes the water and clothing slippery so there is less friction and sufficient detergent not only helps hold dirt in suspension, but also helps separate lint and hair from the fabrics making it easier to flush both types of soil out of the laundry. I believe that if you practice some common sense when using any washing machine, you will not see too much damage to the items being washed. If you use the correct detergent properly and do not try to wash everything in stone cold water, you should not see deposits of gunk and sludge in the machine.

Old appliance dealers (who sold other brands) used to swear that Frigidaire washers tore the arms off shirts. I have never seen that, but like other legends, there might have been an instance involving an old shirt with the under arm area weakened by years of attack from sweat and body oils. Maybe it was not washed frequently in a wringer washer since laundry was a bigger production with those machines than with an automatic. Then the early 1950s brought a Frigidaire washer to the home and sure enough, when untangling some twisted tangled shirt sleeves, the fabric under the arms of the shirt gave way, but healthy fabric with good stitching was not torm apart by Frigidaire washers.

I also admit that I have not seen a domestic front load tumble action washer with front bearings. I have seen lots of clothes dryers with front bearings or slides, but the rear bearing on clothes dryers is nowhere near as large and heavy duty as in a tumbler washer, nor in the dryers do you usually see spiders running from the bearing to the vanes of the tubs with rods extending from the spider at the back of the tub to the tub frame at the front.
 
Have a Kenmore Calypso, going on 7 years old now...it works beautifully, washes clothes cleaner than my old Frigidaire Gallery FL machine, and have had absolutely zero sludge problems with it. What else can you ask for?
 
I cant believe that front loaders have these problems.
I am using an Electrolux 8Kg (I dont remember the model) and a 30years old IZOLA washer. No bearing problems. My Izola is running the last 30 years without any problem. I have changed only the pump.

about the "lint" from the soap if you read the manual from a front loader you will read this at FAQ section:

Q: The drum smells and the door seal gasket has lint of soap.

A: Set the washer to Cottons 95c and run a full wash cycle
without clothes

John B
 
Comment for Lederstiefel1

Here in the U.S. we do not have any top-loading H-axis/tumble washers available (that I know of), all are front loading. While we do have top loading "high efficiency" washers, they all have a vertical drum.

This is why we refer to the top load and front load machines they way we do.

Side note: Fisher & Paycal does now have a TOP-loading H-axis DRYER that is rather neat, though I have heard nothing about it's performance.
 
~Here in the U.S. we do not have any top-loading H-axis/tumble washers available.

Not well-known, but available!

:-)

 
An Engineers View

Hi Folks,
I don't know what's going on across the pond as we really don't have these problems in the UK and we have been using front loaders for more than 40 years.

As an Engineer I have never witnessed a build-up of lint in a front loader however I have seen a greasy film on machines where the owner uses too little detergent and/or too much softener, this is exacerbated by low temperature washes and the use of liquid detergents. I find that machines used mostly with powder detergent are usually perfectly clean inside. Hard water no doubt causes problems in some areas, as I live and work in a soft water area I have not seen any issues relating to water deposits.
After the wash leave the machines door open, wipe out the door seal (Tub shell gasket to give it its full name), always use enough detergent to keep the soils suspended and don't over dose the softener and finally once a month run the hottest longest cycle (Or a maintenance cycle if your machine has one) with POWDER detergent and no laundry, this will remove any deposits that may be accumulating.

As for gentleness when loaded correctly and the appropriate cycle for the fabric is used front loaders are very gentle on laundry, however like any product improper use will will cause problems. I own a Whirlpool 3LSC8255EQ1 DD Top Loader and likewise when loaded and operated correctly it is also very gentle, however an overloaded Top Loader will result in excessive lint and damaged laundry. Vertical agitation relies on suspension and free circulation of the laundry in the washing solution, when a Top Load washer is overloaded the laundry cannot move freely through the agitator vanes and therefore can be damaged.

David
 
Ok - so the U.S. Detergent Market is going liquid (which is considered "bad" for a FL Machine) while our Washer Market is unapologetically going FL.... just laughable.
 
Beware the marketing spin

I find it very interesting that so much is made of front loaders being gentler than top loaders - I'd love to see some scientific evidence of this as I'm convinced that this is more marketing spin than anything else. Damning the agitator as 'rough on laundry' is very convenient if you're trying to sell an alternative system.

If you study the action of a tumbling washer, it is apparent that the action is actually mechanically rough. As the laundry is lifted and dropped in the drum, it is subject to quite strong mechanical forces - particularly torsion and friction. In effect, this type of action relies on extreme flexing the fibres of the cloth - rather akin to hand-washing down by the river - a modern-day equivalent of wringing the fabric and beating it against a rock. By comparison, in a conventional top loader (correcttly loaded as David says in his message), the agitator is primarily designed to create water currents to drive through the laundry, though of course the agitator fins will also exert some stress on the fabric, especially if over-loaded. The point is that BOTH systems exert considerable mechanical stress on fabrics - and the longer cycles in a front loader (about 20 mins of action as opposed to about 6 in a top loader) increase wear. For my money, clothes (cotton shirts in particular) come out completley entangled and very creased from our Bosch front loader - far more so than from the defunct Hotpoint top loader. This is without going into the effect of very high spin speeds on fabrics - suffice to say that for the same cotton shirts, reducing the spin to 600 rpm might mean more time on the line or in the dryer, but saves hours of ironing...ditto for cotton bed sheets.

I'm sure that the Fisher and Paykel/Whirlpool Cabrio system is on the right track - the idea of pre-treating in a high concentration hot solution before adding cold water to agitate should work very well. If this system used an internal water to control the pre-treating part of the programme, I'm sure the results would be superb. I hope the designers develop it further, and bring it to Europe too!
 
In reading all of these entries on damage to clothes from washers--isn't most of the "wear" on clothes due to actually WEARING them and not the action of your washer-FL or TL?I have had to replace a regular potty with a low-flow one-in a townhome I use to live in.The low flow one was a Kohler that cost $250.It did work rather well-but not as well as the 6 gal water hogs I have in the house I am in now.These will flush logs down!Plan to keep em!I am in favor of SCRAPPING the water and energy saving measures in washers-let the marketplace and consumers decide.At how expensive some "designer" FL machines are-would be cheaper for me to send my clothes to the neighborhood cleaners!Its like the idea of expensive lawn tractors-instead of buying one-may be cheaper to pay a lawn service to do the lawn!
 
my comment...

Hi all of you!
Just a short comment by myself!

Liberator1509 and 2DrumsAllergy/David you are soooo right to say so! I totally agree with you!
My mate has still his FL (h-axis-washer) and I have meanwhile collected six other machines which are ALL tub-washers (TwinTubs, SingleTub and V-Axis-Washers) and we both LIKE them because they are sooo gentle (if not overloaded, which will end up in the absolute opposite!!)
Tumblers are very vigorous and have the highest wash-performance of washer at all - but to me the strongest wear on the fabrics as well - especially with the new machines with extremely long wash-cycles with very small amouts of wash-water and huge drums (10kg)!

Ralf
 
Wear On Textiles

Is caused mainly by abrasion/friction. Thus a pair of jeans worn for rough work versus another only for "dress" will probably wear faster.

Bed linen is a good example of wear and usage. In general, unless one is doing some very unusual things in bed, linen should wear for quite along time, especially if it is made from pure line. However if those same bed lines are treated harshly during the laundering process, they will wear, and in some cases wear quite quickly. Back when laundry meant beating textiles with sticks, against rocks, with paddles etc, linen would often be in shreds within a year from such rough treatment. It certianly would have been darned and patched to death to cover up the damage.

This is why overloading any washing machine, repeatedly will cause wear and damage to textiles, especially if a top loading washer is used. Items simply are thrashed against the beater instead of water being moved through them/moved through water.

H-Axis washers use a version of "beating laundry against a rock", and can indeed under certian circumstances cause wear and damage to textiles. This one reason why certain cycles such as "Delicates" and "Permanent Press" advise to load the machine one half/less than full, and or use large amounts of water in relation to the load. The excess water, often combined with gentle drum movements cushions textiles to prevent wear. It is also why detergents for wools and delicates for use in H-Axis machines tend to create more froth than normal "HE" detergents. The froth cushions the wash action thus giving gentle cleaning.
 
my comment...

Partly right, Launderess!
If you overload a drum-washer (FL) the wash-action will be hampered but textiles will have the gentlest washing available - laudry will only tunr round without any falling - and stay unwashed - whereas the washing action in an overloaded agitato-washer will ruin the clothes by thrashing them an shredding them!
The reason for half loads in FL in gentle programmes is that they should swim a bit more but you cannot fill the machine more than to half of the drum otherwise the wash-action will stop (try it by filling it with a hose by hand!) so to imitate tub washing action they fill to hte half and only put half or even a fourth of the full load into the drum and you have the same effect as in a TL...swim-wash-action!
The fact with the foam-cushion is correct - example: Perwoll for woollens and silks!
Ralf
 
Hi Brisnat,

I am always a little suspicious of CR evaluations. I have a very strong feeling that much of what they publish is quite subjective in nature. How does what they do reflect my laundry practices and needs? I am also a little curious to know how 42% of Australian households suddenly come to have front loading washing machines, when only last year 80% still owned top loaders. Sales stats still indicate higher sales ratios for top loaders over front loaders, unless, of course, CR meant that sales of front loaders have increased by 42% in 2007.

These days dollar value seems to have little bearing on quality/durability, nor the level of after-sales support. If we want to be environmentally savvy we need to nip the current throw-away mentality in the butt. It is pretty useless to worry about energy efficiency/environmental impacts, when on average we now have to replace new appliances in less than a decade. It isn't enough to be bedazzled by the good-news stuff on the sales specs. Consumers need to understand the entire life cycle and real environmental/financial costs of the new products they consume. Curiously, on our 'not good enough' website the few washing machine related complaints are usually about front loaders (namely LG and Whirlpool).

In reality here in Australia we've managed to keep ourselves clean and tidy using top loaders all these years. I don't understand why some people have to turn this issue into some kind of superiority trip, as if they know something that nobody else has been able to figure out yet. There will always be people who'll get optimal results from their appliances and those who won't. The superiority of one type of machine over the other is ultimately nothing more than a moot point. This issue is not really about laboratory experiments with performance outcomes measured on microscopic levels, but consumer expectations and satisfaction. In reality there are no accurate, consistent and reliable statistics regarding environmental and cost factors between both types of wahing machines. Every website that deals with this issue mainly publishes the interpretations and opinions of their authors.

Cheers

Rapunzel
 
no offense to the frontload fans but i would much rather stick to my regular old 2000ish kenmore 80 series belive me i put sometimes filthy socks in and they come out clean i ONE wash! the only frontloaders i like are laundromat ones like the maytags or wascomats they actually use water and you can use regular detergent and NEVER go off balance! maybe manufacturers should copy the idea from commercial laundry manufacture companies!
 

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