Bad News About High Efficiency Washers

[decodriveboy]

Why shouldn't consumers demand any less than commercial

If those Wascomats, Speed Queens, etc. were 120v I would have gladly paid thousands to have one in my home.

Why are FLs so dumbed down for home use? The ones at the laundromat have steel doors and hinges, no special soap requirements, cycles that people actually need, no nasty rubber boots, use adequate amounts of water and great results in only a 30 minute cycle.

...pausing to catch breath!

 

[launderess]

Commercial front loaders are built to a much different standard, and thus cost more than what the average American consumer would pay for a washing machine. If there wasn't a large market for high end Miele washing machines that ran into the mid-thousand range, they certianly wont' pony up for a sturdy built, but expensive front loader.

Commercial front loaders basically are built to last the duration(the way washing machines used to be built), and are easily servicable with off the shelf replacment parts.

 

[sudsmaster]

Old news is bad news...

This is OLD news; these machines were introduced in the late 90's and early 21st century. They have been surpassed by later HE washers, both top and front loading. It's a shame Technigeek didn't seem to know anything about later HE washers sold in the USA in the past five years, nor about the very reliable, efficient, and effective European front loaders which have been available here for a few decades.

Technigeek chose to mention two of the worst HE washer models made in the past 10 years or so. The Calypso was a notoriously unreliable machine. Bad basic design, it would seem. Pump problems, and then the "nutating" u-joint mechanism was inherently prone to failure, or so it would seem. It was a unique and short-lived design, and in no way representative of the HE washer phenomenon.

The first and second generation solid-door Maytag Neptunes had a number of engineering issues. The Neptune wasn't an inherently unreliable design, but the initial manufacturing/engineering decisions cheapened various components too much and the rest is history. By the third generation, however, the 5000B, 6500 and 7500, the machines were pretty well sorted out, but it was still a very good idea to get an extended warranty. By this time, wax motors were replaced with solenoids, a drain had been added to the door boot, an internal heater was available on the top model (highly recommended) to ensure 130F temps, a fast tumble-flush action was added to the last rinse to help purge the outer drum of lint/debris, the quirky and failure-prone motor assembly was replaced with a far more reliable design, the recirculating pump was omitted (eliminating a point of failure and it wasn't really needed), etc. I have a Neptune 7500 and have NEVER had a mold/odor problem in the drum/tub. Some mold appeared in the detergent dispenser after some six years of use, but it's easily wiped away. Hey, my shower gets more mold if it's not regularly cleaned. The thing washes very well, has plenty of water, doesn't rip up fabrics, and is easy on the eyes.

If you overload a front loader, then yeah, the load may ball up and refuse to unwind. So don't overload it next time. Guess what? A traditional top loader will reward overloading with lousy washing results as well, if not a much shortened machine life.

Avoid jumping on the bandwagon to be among the first to purchase a new "revolutionary" design: it's sure to have major teething problems. This seems to go for most techie products, from cars to computers.

 

[lederstiefel1]

what we all forgot...

There's one aspect we all forgot here, to me!
Why on earth, if trying to avoid unnecessary waste of energy to heat up the wash-water, don't we install as fast as possible solar panels on our roofs or facades of the houses we live in to get warm or even hot water WITHOUT using any man-made energy?? This is especially logical in countries like Australia, southern parts of the States and Europe, etc.!
Also the old technique of "suds-saver" for TLs would be so much helpful, wouldn't it? Noboby would have to throw out the TLs in such cases and replace them by FLs!

Ralf

 

[tolivac]

How'bout the revival of twin spinner tub washers such as the Easy?That could be an alternative to FL washers and safer than wringers.The Easy wash tub could do a few to several loads before it has to be drained and replaced.Yes-would like to see a return of suds savers for TL washer lovers.And of course examination of EXTERNAL use of water such as watering,washing cars and filling of swimming pools-this can use more water than Many-many TL or FL washer loads.Keep in mind even a small portable swimming-bathing pool can hold more water than several TL washer loads!

 

[lederstiefel1]

Germany is calling again...lol

Well, Rex Oliver, you are right, but have to add that washing a car in Germany isn't aloud anymore as long as you do not have a grease and oil catching gadget in your drain-system like petrol-stations have here.....!!

And.....I own and use THREE twin-tubs for my washing and always postulated that they are the best washers ever made in man's history!
None more versatile - none more economical - none faster and none more interesting!

Ralf

 

[twinniefan]

Amen to that!!

Lederstiefel1,
I could not agree with you more about twin tubs,I would not swap mine for the world as you say they are economical, faster and heaps more fun to use.
I know that over 1 million Hoovermatics were sold here in Australia a long time ago,sadly they were discontinued in the mid 1980's I think.
The trouble today is most people are just lazy and just want to throw their laundry in (mostly in 1 large unsorted load),set the machine and go away and do something else.
I must say though I am actually very tempted to go and buy a large top loader because I am sick and bloody tired of my state government telling me what is best for me and basically what I should and should not own
Cheers.
Steve.

 

[mr_jms]

Sudsmaster: I have the second Maytag Neptune model, purchased in May 1999. I have never had any issues with it, no services calls, no mold. Works great.

 

[stevet]

Who wouldnt want a Wascomat for the home?

First and foremost, Have you seen the prices for the new KITCHENAID PROLINE WASHERS AND DRYERS? They sure seem to rival a Wascomat in price or maybe even exceed it since we all know how many people out there will pay for a KA machine of any type sometimes for the WOW factor.

I would put my money on the Wascomat as having been manufactured and "perfected" after so many years!

Decodriveboy... don't wish for a 120 volt model for the home.. just have your electrician wire you a 220 volt outlet for the machine and check with a plumber to see if your drains can handle the machine. It tends to have a very large drain line plumbed to it and may not be easily adaptable to your current home. If I were building a brand new home, I would surely consider having the laundry room set up to accomodate a commercial unit. Heck, you get a nice concrete pedestal for the Wascomat and it you can always just put the domestic front loader on it until you can afford the Wasco.

Don't forget, you will need the commercial dryer too because of the increased wash load size! Hmmm, 80,000 btu/hr gas and who knows how many watts for the electric version.. 6-8 inch exhaust duct.. adequate hot water heater capacity...this sure looks like it can really costly. But not totally impossible!

 

[stevet]

How Clean do we want our clothes?..My little secret theory!

Many good points mentioned in all the comments here so far and no matter how these washers twist and turn our clothes, we are often disappointed in one or more ways with their washing abilities.

My theory is this and I tell this to anyone who rants and raves about their washers..

Forget about pound capacity of the washer..you can only stuff so much into any machine TL or FL..

I say, fill the machine completely with water first and let it start agitiating. Start adding items to the tub and stop when you do not see them freely circulating thru the clear water. If you add more, the circulating action will start to end and you start rubbing the clothes against each other.. Wear and tear and dirty clothes result.

So stop before it is too late, reset the timer and add your detergent and see if that makes for cleaner clothes.

On the Fl machines, I say go no more than 1/2 to 3/4 full in the tub and see how it works. The clothes should be able to tumble or float as some people said and all of the clothes will get adequately wet and washed and rinsed. It is easy to do with the glass windows.

I have seen people totally pack it in on a Wascomat and you can actually see that there are clothes all bunched up in the middle of this slurry of clothes that never or hardly get wet and nothing tumbles or floats, it just revolves like one big piece of laundry!

As always, whether it is laundry or dishes, its the right combination of time, temperature and water quantity and of course, proper loading!

Hope this helps

 

[launderess]

Most all commercial/laundromat washing machines come in a "soft-mount" line. Thee units are designed for OPL and other applications where installing a "pit" and or bolting down is not an option. However adding a suspension and pump system, makes these washers slightly more expensive than the already expensive (by consumer standards)commercial washing machines.

If one is willing to travel, there are always all sort and manner of commercial units on eBay, many times MIB or uncrated. Problems one forsees would be wiring (most all commercial washing machines run on 220v/3ph power), but then again there may be some small units designed for OPL,beauty shops and the like that run on normal 120v power. Or, they can take a page from Miele and others and run the 120v power and use types of inverters (if that is the correct term), to convert the single phase to three phase internally.

 

[ultramatic52]

Samsung FL

Hi everyone. I bought a Samsung HE FL with the silver nano technology about 2 years ago. At the begining it appear to me that I used a very little water so I opened it by the top and turn the water level half a turn to the left. This raised the water level to where the drum starts and this has improved the washing ability tons. On the other hand, it never washed bad and by the time I started to use this washer, my whites are cleaner and last longer. I also have a Whirlpool Gold Catalyst TL which has been the best TL I´ve ever had.

I really think that the person who wrote first at this thread has no idea how FL´s work, since the one I own is direct drive and has no bearings at all and spins at 1200 RPM.

My grandfather had a Mexican FL called Crolls (BTW discontinued about 20 years ago, when the TL market started to grow, and because of capacity and shorter washing times) which lasted 45 years without having any bearing troubles. It had its motor replaced once and that was all. HE decided to buy a new one, because one of my cousins boyfriend, who is from Germany and is really tall, before marrying her, lived in my granpa´s house and because he had really big clothes the little Crolls (4 kg or 8 lb)was full with 2 of his pants, so they decided to get a TL Whirlpool which has performed flawlessly since.

 

[tolivac]

Are you sure you would want to go through the trouble of trying to use a commercial 3Ph washer instead of a residentual one?I don't have that much to wash-unless you want to make money to pay for the machine washing your neighbors clothes.If you insist on using a 3ph commerical unit-you will need to get a RotoVertor or similar unit to converet home type single phase 230V to 3ph 230V-you will need to have your home power feed evaluated-and figure the cost of the rotoverter-its wiring-breaker and fuse boxes-etc.An electrician will need to do the work and no doubt it will need to be inspected and approved-and expect questions about the washer from the inspector.For home power feeds the washer size would be limited to only 3ph motors of only2-3hp at best.

 

[funguy10]

I'd like to know more about the Catalyst washer. Could you post pics, videos, etc?

 

[launderess]

DecodriveBoy

Many would debate how great the average coin operated/laundromat washing machine gives results. Remember the SQ front loader is based upon their coin op washer, cycles and all and they are not highly rated.

Laundromat washing machines have usually one cycle. Does not matter if one chooses "Normal/Cottons", "PP" or "Delicates"; the fills, cycles, tumbling action is all the same. What changes is merely the water temperature for washing. Now some newer laundromat washing machines with computer/processor controls have a bit more flexibility, but they are very pricey.

By and large laundromat washing machines are well built, but sturdy machines, simply designed to do simple laundry day in and day out for years on end. Nothing fancy mind you, just "washing" clothes.

Now if you really want to get fancy, there are commercial front loaders that have computer controls which allow all sorts of user programming, right down to tumbling direction/duration; but those machines are VERY expensive.

Why Three Phase Power For Commercial Front Loaders?

IIRC the story is that three phase motors are much more robust than single phase. They are also better suited to heavy loads and less likely to stall. Just the thing for when a Wascomat 50/lb washing machines goes right into spinning with an over full load of wet laundry. If you notice most if not all laundromat washing machines don't pfaff around about spinning the way their domestic cousins do; they simply rev up and away they go. That takes some power!

 

[dj-gabriele]

My father has a commercial laundry, he does dry-cleaning but in the past did wet-cleaning too, his machine was a Electrolux something, it was huge, the bolts were 40 centimetres long and it had 6, two on each front corner and one in the back corners. It was a 15 kg machine and was 1,3 metres high and large, the power consumption was huge, the inbuilt heater was 10Kw and the motor 2,5Kw, glad that he discontinued it because it was power gready and failure prone. It didn't survive more than 6 years.

 

[sudsmaster]

Three phase motors

You may have noticed that most single phase medium to large AC induction motors (such as on home shop drill presses and older washing machines) give out an audible click as they start up and then spin down. This is the sound of a centrifugal switch. When first started, a special starting circuit in tandem with a capacitor gets the motor running. After it reaches a certain RPM, the centirfugal force trips the internal switch and turns the starting circuit off. Then the regular 110 or 220 single phase circuit takes over and runs the motor for as long as you like. The starting circuit is needed because for this particular type of motor, single phase current alone cannot get the motor spinning. This type of motor is called a split-phase AC induction motor. Smaller appliances like fans and hand mixers may use other designs, such as shaded pole, or even use brushes and commutators as in the universal motor design.

A three phase motor (and some types of smaller single phase motors) don't have this starting problem. The three phases can provide balanced and smooth impulses that create a rotating magnetic field. The three phase motor is simpler and more compact than a single phase motor of equivalent power, and runs smoother with less vibration. It will also typically last longer than a single phase motor.

AC motor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[tolivac]

The biggest thing about 3Ph versus single phase motors is efficiency-the 3 ph ones are more efficient even in the same horsepower and speed.and of course the 3ph motor doesn't require the starting equipment the single pahse one does-start switch,start cap,and start winding.And you can stall the 3ph one more-put a heavier load on it before it completely stalls-on the single phase ones-if you stall it-you can burn up the start cap,start winding and the centrifical start switch.Have seen this in the power tool repairs I used to do.It was common in the large masonry saws that had single phase motors-had to replace start caps on them often.Same with some air compressors whose unloader valves weren't working.and the three phase motor doesn't require the starting equipment because the staggered phases produce the twisting magnetic feild required to get the motor going.In the single phase ones the twisting feild was created by the action of the start cap,start winding and start switch.Centrifical start switches are normally set to release the start winding when the motor approaches 75-80 percent of its rated speed.Fans and blowers usually use a permenant split phase design-the motor has no centrifical start switch.At best just a small cap connected between the windings.It is an AC capacitor since it is in the circuit all the time.Oil filled.Fan and blower motors have low start torque-so the other start equipment isn't required.Contrast to a compressor or a washer or something where the motor is heavily loaded at start.Than the higher start torque from the split cap motor is required to get the load moving.3ph motors inherently have a high start torque.Sometimes this is limited to prevent equipment damage or surges on the power line feeding the motor.

 

[washertalk]

It is good to hear all the input that sets the record straight on the original blanket claim that all HE products are bad.

Yes there has been some products that apparently didn't work as well as hoped, like the Calypso. But there are many more that are far superior to old technology. It is certainly a worthwhile effort to economize and make more efficient products.

I love my new Duet. It does an EXCELLENT job. no regrets. I can wash things in it that I wouldn't have tried to with my 2000 TLer. and so quiet, and uses so little water.

Now lets do that for our cars and be rid of Fossil fuels and noisey engines. Can we imagine the day when living next to or near a freeway would not be objectable.

 

[decodriveboy]

Thoughts

I don't think that anyone objects to saving energy and helping the environment, and if some people are pleased with their HE machines then so be it. Although at the present point, for all their technology are not built to last more than a few years, and where do they go afterwards? To the landfill. How is that helping the planet?

Another issue is the lack of choice with HE machines. One ought to have the option to override the eco programming to wash as they feel is necessary. While some of the LG's do offer options that help in overriding (Pre-Wash, Water Plus), those add more time to already overlong cycles which can take hours to complete. I don't see the efficiency or energy savings in that.

Sometimes--in my view--old-fashioned is best.