Biden admin proposes more stringent efficiency standards

[launderess]

"They do not extract water between the wash and rinses so detergent is carried over to the final spin which is not an efficient way of doing laundry."

Ever since first "washer/extractors" arrived in 1950's there has been considerable debate among professional laundry people about extracting wash between rinses.

On one side there are those who feel extracting loads after washing pulls soiled water through goods resulting in a bad result.

Other side claims spinning between rinses results in need for less of them which results in faster total cycle times.

This being said default still is for commercial machines to rinse once, twice or maybe more before any sort of extracting takes place. This indeed if it happens at all before final spin (extraction).

Until rather recently most all European h-axis washers did not extract until after two or more rinses. Even then the first spin was often a short pulse one. My W1070 does not have any sort of extraction until after third rinse.

Ironically if one choses "Sensitive" on either of my more modern AEG washers they will do two or three deep rinses before first spin. Thus there obviously is a method behind madness.

As for water efficacy I don't know...

Rinsing is a process of dilution. X amount of wash will only absorb "Y" amount of water. Depending upon how generous a particular h-axis washer is with rinse water levels sufficient dilution may take place with only "Z" number of rinses before extraction.

SQ front loaders at local laundromat do not fully extract after washes or first few rinses. They do a gentle pulse sort of spin however...

 

[launderess]

Holy Grail of European toplader washers.

Have put certain persons on notice, if ever one of these washer shows up on this side of pond I'm having it.

 

[henene4]

There is this whole irony to me about the US being touted as the land of freedom, yet having the worst regulations to support that freedom.

I had to go to laundromats several times the past couple of months and what people do with their laundry is amazing to me - even when they have a choice.

The thing is the US efficiency regulations don't need tightening, they need an entire once over.

The idea of 8lbs loads on just one specific cycle is wild to me - especially in todays laundry habits.

You can get very efficient washers that can run truly hot washes at reasonable temps.

And manufacturers over here DO absorb the cost of development in a way.

And focusing washers and DW will only get the US so far.

When your dryer uses 5kWh to dry an average load, maybe actually pushing for replacing that outdated dryer design basically every US home has is a better way.

Regulations do need to be implemented - a washer that washes in hot isn't any good if you have to rebuild the house around it every 5 years due to some weather catastrophe.

But neither is having the climate under control - but only kinda and living with stinky towels.

The thing is that you need actually well thought out solutions - but I doubt you'll ever see that under US politics any time soon.

 

[lakewebsterkid]

Jeesh

I am going to write a complaint. Not sure if anyone will read it or care, but enough is enough. It can't get any worse. Warm on these new machines is 75-80ºF. Water levels are already too low in many of them. We are nearly to the point where machines will wash for 3 hours and wash in 68-75ºF water when selecting 'warm'.

 

[lakewebsterkid]

Additives

One piece of info they are missing is that lower wash temperatures cause people to use more additives such as Oxy Bleach, Chlorine Bleach, scent boosters, or more laundry detergent. That is just as wasteful as using a slightly higher temperature to wash. Not to mention, the number of people that have to rewash clothes due to abysmal performance with new machines. Using exclusively lower washer temperatures also leads to mold, mildew, bacteria, detergent, and fabric softener buildup in the machines. What is the cure for this? Running an empty cycle in the washer that uses hot water, and potentially requires bleach to remove the buildup. What if the consumer is unable to remove the odor or buildup in a satisfactory manner? Some consumers will replace parts (rubber boot, etc.) or discard the machine altogether.
So we should lower energy consumption of these machines more so that it looks good on paper, but in reality, what is going on in the background?

 

[tolivac]

But we end up WASTING energy and water in the clean cycles of new washers.--and when they die earlier than older models-they go to the dump since their mostly plastic parts can't be recycled.We are going BACKWARDS here!

 

[henene4]

Wasting energy in the clean cycles

Nah. Just no.
Shouting and complaining at the wrong points won't get you anywhere and just gets you discredited.

There have been people making that point for the EU aswell, and the math just flat out does not support that claim.

You can run an empty boilwash as a clean washer cycle every 4th or 5th cycle if you run each of the cycles in-between at 30C (86F) instead of 60C (140F) and still end up slightly lower energy.
And the general recommendation for a clean washer cycle is like every 50 cycles or so?

If you run most cycles in cold-ish water (86F) but can run a hot cycle with specific loads like once a week (140F), you even get clean clothes in return.

If people would understand that your once worn jeans don't need a 140F wash, but that your towels do, you would have the energy savings these regulations force you into AND don't need clean washer cycles.

 

[tolivac]

I won't buy a washer that needs a clean cycle.The older machine I am using does fine.

 

[gyrafoam]

The Globalists/WEF/Elites will tell you what you can and cannot use and you will be happy. Period!

Meanwhile, I will continue to enjoy my old machines in blissfull non-compliance to the totalitarians!

 

[gizmo]

Oh, FFS.

 

[qsd-dan]

The Globalists/WEF/Elites will tell you what you can and cannot use and you will be happy. Period!

Meanwhile, I will continue to enjoy my old machines in blissfull non-compliance to the totalitarians!

 

If only I could give this post an award!

 

[appnut]

If only I could give this post an award!

I SECOND IT!!!

 

[sudsmaster]

 

On the other hand,

 

<blockquote>
Every story has two sides. The DOE admits these new appliance standards will require the industry to invest upwards of $2 billion to comply with them, but counters that the rebates and incentives baked into the Inflation Reduction Act will more than offset that amount in terms of increased sales. It’s impossible to know who is right, as predicting the future is a fraught exercise under the best of circumstances. ...

 

Fridges/freezers: The proposed rule would reduce energy use by around 12% on average across product classes, with some product classes being required to reduce energy use even further than that.

 

Clothes Washers: The proposed rule would reduce energy use by around 35%, and would reduce water use by around 40%, on average, compared to existing standards. ...


</blockquote>
 

 

 

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/02/1...ds-more-efficient-wind-turbine-manufacturing/

 

[henene4]

Fridge freezers

Given I currently work in the central global development for cooling appliances for a major EU player, US cooling appliances are SO FAR behind the world and there is NO development needed to reach those efficiency standards.

The standards currently in place basically match the lowest efficiency requests for the EU - like, as in any US design would basically be illegal to sell by March next year over here.

It's as simple as fucking reducing your profit margin a bit and adding an inch of foam or an inverter compressor.

You don't even have to go the expensive route and use vacuum insulation panels like we do for our top rated appliances.

 

[henene4]

I thought I was just grabbing numbers ofv the top of my head

But no - it REALLY is that bad for refrigeration.

My original source was a slide that was distributed internally a few weeks ago at my workplace where - along the more important markets for us like India, China and the EU - it showed US ratings.
Those were normalised numbers for one model to what the equivalent rating would have been under each system.
And that was absurd.

But looking at it now, it REALLY blows me off my socks.

Luckily (though I personally despise that trend) the US-style side by side has become the next status symbol in EU Kitchens.

And luckily, manufacturers like LG sell similar sized units on both sides of the pond:
https://www.lg.com/us/refrigerators/lg-lrsxc2306s-side-by-side-refrigerator
https://www.lg.com/de/kuehlschraenke-gefrierschraenke/lg-gslv31mcxm

Those are the same dimensions basically, same internal volume more or less, both have an ice maker.

And either your testing procedures are inherently so different that it is beyond my comprehension, but the US equivalent uses 600+kWh a year compared to the 400+kWh in the EU - and that model is F-rated, so won't be legal to sell after next March here.

Edit:

Findung and understanding testing methology takes some time, but I got there eventually.

So, most fridges in the EU are tested at both 16C and 32C ambient temperatures.
DOE testing runs at 32C non stop to simulate door opening.

The EU has a very convoluted calculation system, and the values behind that aren't usually made public - BUT there are a hadfull of listings that show the values.

The one model I could find info on that made sense was a Beko side by side.
It's sizing is comparable to that LG, and it's rated F aswell, features are similar.

It uses 1.508kWh in 24h at 32C under EU testing.
That is more or less exactly 550kWh yearly - still 100kWh less than the US LG.

And again, F-rating is the worst of the worst so to speak.[this post was last edited: 2/19/2023-12:24]

 

[vacerator]

Ah, those globalist's!

Well, I guess we all live on this globe for now. Possibly, they will have the next generation all speaking Mandarin too. They're mostly all renters in housing blocks.
I'll be dead, so will you, so I can't worry about it. We can't do anyhting to change it now.
I saw a cip of Britsh elementary sudents in the 60's the other day being asked what they think the future would be like. One said he thought he night be controlling robots, or that a computer might control him. One said maybe working/Living on the moon, or Mars. Several thought that a madman would start wars, and or would set of nukes, and earth would become a giant fireball.
Half nice presidents day all!

 

[henene4]

Last time harping about that

I was at work today and had a few minutes to check something.
Being right at the source of such data is very convenient, not gonna lie.

We have one class A bottom freezer model in our 2 main channel brands on offer.
Class A and B cooling appliances are very low market penetration at this point in time, simply because they are to expensive to recoup the additional cost in a reasonable timeframe. If you compare within one brand, usually, depending on product category, class D or C is the most reasonable buy. They usually recoup their additional cost to the lower end models within 10 years, give or take. That is at German electricity prices.

Since very recently, if you aren't brand centric, you can get B class appliances from reputable brands for prices that start to make sense.
Both A and B class appliances will come down in price this and next year because manufacturers have to use way more vacuum insulation panels for the new models coming up.
The more you buy, the cheaper these get and currently, they are like several times more expensive compared to the usual foam insulation used.

But that's not the point.
The point is that the major development - at least for fridge freezers - HAS been done already.

Our A class bottom freezer models use 0,395kWh at 32C in 24h - that's just shy of 145kWh in a year.
That's the current pinnacle of efficiency that is on the market right now. No experimental technology.
That is "only" for a 3.6cuft freezer, 9.2cuft fridge, 12.8cuft total NoFrost fridge freezer.

Again, you don't have to, and probably shouldn't, go quite that far efficiency wise.

But we are already there.
All you have to do is use these known, proofen at scale technologies in your next product refresh.

 

[DADoES]

 
Henrik, a 12.8 cu. ft. refrigerator/freezer is a compact model on the U.S. market, not a valid direct comparison to what the consumer/howeowner purchases.  What do you have in a 25 to 28 cu. ft. size? (although I suspect the energy comsumption would easily beat U.S. standards).

 

[henene4]

We do have your size fridges

The point I was making was the technology is there.

Sure, an A class Side-by-side would use more.
But it's the same basic way of doing it: Vacuum insulation panels all around, double them up on the freezer side, micro-channel condenser, inverter compressor.

We (BSH, Bosch) DO make Side-by-sides - at least kind of - but they are more of a niche market for us and thus we don't put a lot of research into them.
So they are only available in E class or lower from what I remember.
Keep in mind the Bosch North America is COMPLETELY separate in terms of refrigeration from the rest of the world of BSH cooling appliances.

The EU however DOES have C class Side-by-sides from other brands like Samsung.

These are 22.5cuft total with an 8cuft freezer.

Since I don't have access to Samsungs engineering data, I can only guestimate what these would use under US testing.
They are rated at 225kWh a year under EU testing.
Thats 0.616kWh a day with an average 50/50 mix of 16C and 32C ambient temperature. Of course, it's not certain what either value is. But let's make it worse than it probably is and say 0.9kWh a day at 32C.

That would be 326kWh a year probably.
If we make the appliance that bit bigger, lets make 350kWh a year.

Having a quick look at some other Side by sides on your side of the pond, most hover around 600-650kWh a year - the lowest your energy guide even appraises is above 500kWh.

Or different way of thinking about it:

Having 2 of the A-class fridge freezers side by side would give you the capacity you are asking for, at below 300kWh.

And one large fridge freezer would be more efficient than 2 smaller ones (since the surface area is smaller per volume).

Again, it's about the outcry the industry would have to spend so much money to create these appliances.

No, they don't.
Almost all US brands have EU offerings.
And in many - if not all - cases, the EU has brought up technology that can be transferred to the US market with little effort to reach efficiency standards that make sense today.

And you don't have to go all the way EU extreme.
But, like, come on - our fridges are almost as much more efficient energy wise as our dryers are, and there is no cycle time argument to be made for that.

 

[combo52]

North American refrigerator, energy efficiency

I do not believe North American refrigerators are any less energy efficient than those sold in the rest of the world.

 

When I made trips to the UK, France, Germany, Geneva, and Australia, I made a point of going into stores and comparing appliances and energy labeling, and all those places showed that large American refrigerators were actually extremely efficient in their energy usage, when you could find anything even close to comparable in size from these different countries, they often used more energy than the US models.

 

US refrigerators have a huge advantage because of they’re so large and we can afford to have 3 inch thick walls and doors filled with insulation. So any type of comparison should include energy efficiency per cubic foot of cooled area.

 

It could be much more efficient to have a large refrigerator and reduce shopping trips as well. The amount of energy expended even riding a metro system use many times as much energy as you little bit of extra energy to keep a slightly bigger refrigerator running.

 

We also have been using inverter compressors LED lights inside waste heat to eliminate condensation on the outside and ultra efficient ECM motors so I don’t see how there could be any real difference. Different rating methods can give different results, Maybe that’s the difference you’re seeing. This is why the US is only striving to reduce energy usage about 12% because we really have gone about as far as we can go without some radical new technology, which is not being used in Europe either by the way.

 

John