Just saw this on Facebook
https://ground.news/article/biden-a...est-climate-action-overregulation-on-steroids
https://ground.news/article/biden-a...est-climate-action-overregulation-on-steroids
Biden admin proposes more stringent efficiency standards
- Thread starter logixx
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Wondering
What the front end cost of the appliances will be? I find it hard to believe that appliance manufacturers will absorb the research and development and any increased production costs. They will pass additional costs on to consumers.
"[COLOR=rgb(9, 5, 39); font-family: primary-normal-book-regular, sans-serif; font-size: 18px; font-weight: 400]would likely drive down the value of appliance manufacturers in the short term" [/COLOR]
What do y'all think about this statement? It seems unlikely to me.
What the front end cost of the appliances will be? I find it hard to believe that appliance manufacturers will absorb the research and development and any increased production costs. They will pass additional costs on to consumers.
"[COLOR=rgb(9, 5, 39); font-family: primary-normal-book-regular, sans-serif; font-size: 18px; font-weight: 400]would likely drive down the value of appliance manufacturers in the short term" [/COLOR]
What do y'all think about this statement? It seems unlikely to me.
www.yahoo.com/news/u-gove...
Comments are entertaining, looks like people are waking up to the reality.
Comments are entertaining, looks like people are waking up to the reality.
A long time ago, appliance manufacturers took pride in improvement in functionality and energy use, now not so much. The ONLY concern is profits, thank you Harvard MBAs. Due to that fact the Gvt had to step in and force innovation when companies would not do it.
I'd much prefer the manufacturers were leading the charge for innovation but that is no longer the case. My bank account and I are very happy with my FL washer, and the $$ it saves in water usage. My fridge sips energy when it's predecessor gulped it. My home is well lit all the time with LEDs when prior to that I lived in a pretty dark home.
I'd much prefer the manufacturers were leading the charge for innovation but that is no longer the case. My bank account and I are very happy with my FL washer, and the $$ it saves in water usage. My fridge sips energy when it's predecessor gulped it. My home is well lit all the time with LEDs when prior to that I lived in a pretty dark home.
launderess
Well-known member
Thank god have enough older washers and a dishwasher that will see me to end of my days. For those starting out housekeeping or must buy something new they have my sympathies.
What's left? We're already down to doing wash a la wet wipe, this with machines that barely last five years much less ten. Oh and one must routinely "clean" inside of washer by running special hot water cycles. Like that girl in old Maytag dishwasher commercial says to her mother "I thought the dishwasher washed dishes..."
Off top of my head these new regulations will spell final end for top loading washers of any sort. Gas or even electric vented dryers will be in crosshairs has well.
What's left? We're already down to doing wash a la wet wipe, this with machines that barely last five years much less ten. Oh and one must routinely "clean" inside of washer by running special hot water cycles. Like that girl in old Maytag dishwasher commercial says to her mother "I thought the dishwasher washed dishes..."
Off top of my head these new regulations will spell final end for top loading washers of any sort. Gas or even electric vented dryers will be in crosshairs has well.
Hmmm. I bought my first Duet 12 years ago, used. It's still going strong, no repairs. My other Duets are on their second set of bearings and seals. The original Duet doesn't have a cleaning cycle and hasn't needed one. I wash in hot and warm. No issues, my clothes last longer and are spotless coming out. I have a TL in my collection I use a few times a year to keep the seals soft and I cringe at the amount of water it uses.
I for one anxiously waiting for the new gvt. programs to be up and running. I will be getting an induction cooktop. And I may consider a heat pump dryer at some point.
I for one anxiously waiting for the new gvt. programs to be up and running. I will be getting an induction cooktop. And I may consider a heat pump dryer at some point.
"The original Duet doesn't have a cleaning cycle and hasn't needed one."
Same. Mine is spotless and there's no cleaning cycle, either. Not even a hidden one. I wonder how much further downhill it can go? 100F hot cycles, washers that barely spin out the sudsy water (looking at you Electrolux).
I see LG have released their heat-pump washtower in the US now.
https://www.lg.com/us/washers/lg-wkhc202hba-washtower
Same. Mine is spotless and there's no cleaning cycle, either. Not even a hidden one. I wonder how much further downhill it can go? 100F hot cycles, washers that barely spin out the sudsy water (looking at you Electrolux).
I see LG have released their heat-pump washtower in the US now.
https://www.lg.com/us/washers/lg-wkhc202hba-washtower
I for one would LOVE to see ALL of these regs SCRAPPED and let the marketplace decide-IE YOU the customer.Don't like gov't shoving regs down our throats.Lets get them OUT of our kitchens,bathrooms,and laundry rooms!!!
Appliance manufacturers receive money for meeting standards proposed by people in the Department of Energy who care nothing about results and testing organizations that test dishwashers with plates and other flat items on the lower rack and cups, glasses and bowls on the upper rack which does not give any advantage to dishwashers with a separate wash arm or effective sprayer for the top rack if pans or other concave shaped items are loaded into the lower rack blocking water to the top rack. Of course, stupid people who scald dishware before loading pieces in the dishwasher won't notice any of this so nobody calls the testing bodies on any of this. As long as the manufacturers engineer their products to meet government standards, they are amply rewarded and until the government does not do anything about efficiency, nothing changes. Look how many decades domestic washer manufacturers, with a couple of exceptions, kept serving up machines with mediocre water extraction compared with machines from other nations where resources have always been higher priced.
I wash in hot and warm. No issues...
That's going to be the area they concentrate on to make the washer more "green" by reducing incoming water temps and limiting use of the heating element. It's already been happening for a while but expect them to dumb down temps even further into the future...along with reduced water fills...and then your front loader WILL require cleaning cycles. Dumb those temperature down enough and those cleaning cycles will either become more frequent or useless themselves.
Not sure about anyone else, but I rather not use a heat pump dryer and wait 2+ hours for my clothes to dry.
That's going to be the area they concentrate on to make the washer more "green" by reducing incoming water temps and limiting use of the heating element. It's already been happening for a while but expect them to dumb down temps even further into the future...along with reduced water fills...and then your front loader WILL require cleaning cycles. Dumb those temperature down enough and those cleaning cycles will either become more frequent or useless themselves.
Not sure about anyone else, but I rather not use a heat pump dryer and wait 2+ hours for my clothes to dry.
I don`t miss the up to 20 Watts ghost loads of some older electronics nor the old fashioned incandescent lamps on my power bill.
I also wouln`t go back to a resistant wire heated clothes dryer even if I could have a TOL one for free.
For some things the free market seems to work very well because the majority will opt for better efficiency anyway if it`s clear that the more efficient and usually more expensive investment will be earned back soon.
For many other things unfortunately it is necessary to have it done via regulations.
When I was young we had a major decline of forests in Germany because of acid rain.
No one could deny those dead trees any longer, they were visible everywhere and nothing would have ever changed if those catalytic converters in new cars wouldn`t have been made mandatory because it was an extra expense to consumers without immediate return.
Besides so far there has always been some kind of work around like if you don`t like the dumbed down temperatures of a normal cycle you can still use sanitary with extra rinse or whatever else instead.
That`s called pragmatism I think.
I also wouln`t go back to a resistant wire heated clothes dryer even if I could have a TOL one for free.
For some things the free market seems to work very well because the majority will opt for better efficiency anyway if it`s clear that the more efficient and usually more expensive investment will be earned back soon.
For many other things unfortunately it is necessary to have it done via regulations.
When I was young we had a major decline of forests in Germany because of acid rain.
No one could deny those dead trees any longer, they were visible everywhere and nothing would have ever changed if those catalytic converters in new cars wouldn`t have been made mandatory because it was an extra expense to consumers without immediate return.
Besides so far there has always been some kind of work around like if you don`t like the dumbed down temperatures of a normal cycle you can still use sanitary with extra rinse or whatever else instead.
That`s called pragmatism I think.
>> I for one would LOVE to see ALL of these regs SCRAPPED and let the marketplace
>> decide-IE YOU the customer.Don't like gov't shoving regs down our throats.Lets
>> get them OUT of our kitchens,bathrooms,and laundry rooms!!!
Let's not please.
These regulations serve a purpose, and reductions in energy consumption have direct (positive) impacts for energy generation, pollution, and the long-term health of the world we and our kids will live in.
>> decide-IE YOU the customer.Don't like gov't shoving regs down our throats.Lets
>> get them OUT of our kitchens,bathrooms,and laundry rooms!!!
Let's not please.
These regulations serve a purpose, and reductions in energy consumption have direct (positive) impacts for energy generation, pollution, and the long-term health of the world we and our kids will live in.
vacerator
Well-known member
Too little, too late.
Not my problem. I'll be dead in less than 40 years. Just living as best I can, sharing, and spreading the Love!
Not my problem. I'll be dead in less than 40 years. Just living as best I can, sharing, and spreading the Love!
It's about choice for me. Saving resources is great. I'm trying to save resources daily when going hardly any faster than 60 mph on the Autobahn. I ran my radiator for only about an hour in the evening when I got home from work (well, until I got mold spots in a corner). I did use the Eco button on my Duet to reduce a 140F wash to 122F.
Yet... I do have to choice not to. It seems most washers with North American software seem to either offer warm temps at best - or sanitize. Why no happy medium?
I do realize that my grip is largely about water temp but what can I say? I'm German and I like my 30 40 60 95 numbers and a washer that obeys. If not, I'd go Joan on manufactures.
Yet... I do have to choice not to. It seems most washers with North American software seem to either offer warm temps at best - or sanitize. Why no happy medium?
I do realize that my grip is largely about water temp but what can I say? I'm German and I like my 30 40 60 95 numbers and a washer that obeys. If not, I'd go Joan on manufactures.
RJ's new Maytag frontloader pair (5630 series), the washer and dryer both have the display panel lit at a low level when the machines are otherwise Off. Seems odd regards to reducing energy usage.
48bencix
Well-known member
Just Stop
The current standards are strict enough. Just leave them alone. No real need to change the standards every few years. If a particular area is experiencing a water shortage, they can issue calls for reduced usage. Similarly if an area has power porblems they can raise the rates to encourage less use. So in some areas some of us will have to give up Top Loaders. But not everywhere. The entire group in the government working on this can be laid off. This will save the government money.
The current standards are strict enough. Just leave them alone. No real need to change the standards every few years. If a particular area is experiencing a water shortage, they can issue calls for reduced usage. Similarly if an area has power porblems they can raise the rates to encourage less use. So in some areas some of us will have to give up Top Loaders. But not everywhere. The entire group in the government working on this can be laid off. This will save the government money.
I wonder if now is a good time to explore Staber type top load horizontal axis washers. You would think mfgs might be working on a design.
I never saw the purpose of Staber washers.They are not water efficient in spite of being a horizontal axis machine. They do not extract water between the wash and rinses so detergent is carried over to the final spin which is not an efficient way of doing laundry.
launderess
Well-known member
Top or side loading H-Axis washers have long been popular not only in commercial or OPL use, but residential as well. Latter mainly in France and Italy but also other countries as well. Miele, AEG. Asko among others have lines of such washers.
Obvious benefit of top or side loading h-axis washers is ergonomics. Instead of having to bend down or raise washer up on platform one can reach in instead.
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?11981
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?41733
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?33881
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?76262
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?755
Whirlpool has held a patent for such a machine since 1995, but to date it seems they've done nothing more.
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?1212
Laundry Alternative does (or did?) offer such a machine.
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?80159
Obvious benefit of top or side loading h-axis washers is ergonomics. Instead of having to bend down or raise washer up on platform one can reach in instead.
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?11981
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?41733
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?33881
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?76262
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?755
Whirlpool has held a patent for such a machine since 1995, but to date it seems they've done nothing more.
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?1212
Laundry Alternative does (or did?) offer such a machine.
https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?80159
launderess
Well-known member
"They do not extract water between the wash and rinses so detergent is carried over to the final spin which is not an efficient way of doing laundry."
Ever since first "washer/extractors" arrived in 1950's there has been considerable debate among professional laundry people about extracting wash between rinses.
On one side there are those who feel extracting loads after washing pulls soiled water through goods resulting in a bad result.
Other side claims spinning between rinses results in need for less of them which results in faster total cycle times.
This being said default still is for commercial machines to rinse once, twice or maybe more before any sort of extracting takes place. This indeed if it happens at all before final spin (extraction).
Until rather recently most all European h-axis washers did not extract until after two or more rinses. Even then the first spin was often a short pulse one. My W1070 does not have any sort of extraction until after third rinse.
Ironically if one choses "Sensitive" on either of my more modern AEG washers they will do two or three deep rinses before first spin. Thus there obviously is a method behind madness.
As for water efficacy I don't know...
Rinsing is a process of dilution. X amount of wash will only absorb "Y" amount of water. Depending upon how generous a particular h-axis washer is with rinse water levels sufficient dilution may take place with only "Z" number of rinses before extraction.
SQ front loaders at local laundromat do not fully extract after washes or first few rinses. They do a gentle pulse sort of spin however...
Ever since first "washer/extractors" arrived in 1950's there has been considerable debate among professional laundry people about extracting wash between rinses.
On one side there are those who feel extracting loads after washing pulls soiled water through goods resulting in a bad result.
Other side claims spinning between rinses results in need for less of them which results in faster total cycle times.
This being said default still is for commercial machines to rinse once, twice or maybe more before any sort of extracting takes place. This indeed if it happens at all before final spin (extraction).
Until rather recently most all European h-axis washers did not extract until after two or more rinses. Even then the first spin was often a short pulse one. My W1070 does not have any sort of extraction until after third rinse.
Ironically if one choses "Sensitive" on either of my more modern AEG washers they will do two or three deep rinses before first spin. Thus there obviously is a method behind madness.
As for water efficacy I don't know...
Rinsing is a process of dilution. X amount of wash will only absorb "Y" amount of water. Depending upon how generous a particular h-axis washer is with rinse water levels sufficient dilution may take place with only "Z" number of rinses before extraction.
SQ front loaders at local laundromat do not fully extract after washes or first few rinses. They do a gentle pulse sort of spin however...
launderess
Well-known member
Holy Grail of European toplader washers.
Have put certain persons on notice, if ever one of these washer shows up on this side of pond I'm having it.
Have put certain persons on notice, if ever one of these washer shows up on this side of pond I'm having it.
There is this whole irony to me about the US being touted as the land of freedom, yet having the worst regulations to support that freedom.
I had to go to laundromats several times the past couple of months and what people do with their laundry is amazing to me - even when they have a choice.
The thing is the US efficiency regulations don't need tightening, they need an entire once over.
The idea of 8lbs loads on just one specific cycle is wild to me - especially in todays laundry habits.
You can get very efficient washers that can run truly hot washes at reasonable temps.
And manufacturers over here DO absorb the cost of development in a way.
And focusing washers and DW will only get the US so far.
When your dryer uses 5kWh to dry an average load, maybe actually pushing for replacing that outdated dryer design basically every US home has is a better way.
Regulations do need to be implemented - a washer that washes in hot isn't any good if you have to rebuild the house around it every 5 years due to some weather catastrophe.
But neither is having the climate under control - but only kinda and living with stinky towels.
The thing is that you need actually well thought out solutions - but I doubt you'll ever see that under US politics any time soon.
I had to go to laundromats several times the past couple of months and what people do with their laundry is amazing to me - even when they have a choice.
The thing is the US efficiency regulations don't need tightening, they need an entire once over.
The idea of 8lbs loads on just one specific cycle is wild to me - especially in todays laundry habits.
You can get very efficient washers that can run truly hot washes at reasonable temps.
And manufacturers over here DO absorb the cost of development in a way.
And focusing washers and DW will only get the US so far.
When your dryer uses 5kWh to dry an average load, maybe actually pushing for replacing that outdated dryer design basically every US home has is a better way.
Regulations do need to be implemented - a washer that washes in hot isn't any good if you have to rebuild the house around it every 5 years due to some weather catastrophe.
But neither is having the climate under control - but only kinda and living with stinky towels.
The thing is that you need actually well thought out solutions - but I doubt you'll ever see that under US politics any time soon.
lakewebsterkid
Well-known member
Jeesh
I am going to write a complaint. Not sure if anyone will read it or care, but enough is enough. It can't get any worse. Warm on these new machines is 75-80ºF. Water levels are already too low in many of them. We are nearly to the point where machines will wash for 3 hours and wash in 68-75ºF water when selecting 'warm'.
I am going to write a complaint. Not sure if anyone will read it or care, but enough is enough. It can't get any worse. Warm on these new machines is 75-80ºF. Water levels are already too low in many of them. We are nearly to the point where machines will wash for 3 hours and wash in 68-75ºF water when selecting 'warm'.
lakewebsterkid
Well-known member
Additives
One piece of info they are missing is that lower wash temperatures cause people to use more additives such as Oxy Bleach, Chlorine Bleach, scent boosters, or more laundry detergent. That is just as wasteful as using a slightly higher temperature to wash. Not to mention, the number of people that have to rewash clothes due to abysmal performance with new machines. Using exclusively lower washer temperatures also leads to mold, mildew, bacteria, detergent, and fabric softener buildup in the machines. What is the cure for this? Running an empty cycle in the washer that uses hot water, and potentially requires bleach to remove the buildup. What if the consumer is unable to remove the odor or buildup in a satisfactory manner? Some consumers will replace parts (rubber boot, etc.) or discard the machine altogether.
So we should lower energy consumption of these machines more so that it looks good on paper, but in reality, what is going on in the background?
One piece of info they are missing is that lower wash temperatures cause people to use more additives such as Oxy Bleach, Chlorine Bleach, scent boosters, or more laundry detergent. That is just as wasteful as using a slightly higher temperature to wash. Not to mention, the number of people that have to rewash clothes due to abysmal performance with new machines. Using exclusively lower washer temperatures also leads to mold, mildew, bacteria, detergent, and fabric softener buildup in the machines. What is the cure for this? Running an empty cycle in the washer that uses hot water, and potentially requires bleach to remove the buildup. What if the consumer is unable to remove the odor or buildup in a satisfactory manner? Some consumers will replace parts (rubber boot, etc.) or discard the machine altogether.
So we should lower energy consumption of these machines more so that it looks good on paper, but in reality, what is going on in the background?
But we end up WASTING energy and water in the clean cycles of new washers.--and when they die earlier than older models-they go to the dump since their mostly plastic parts can't be recycled.We are going BACKWARDS here!
Wasting energy in the clean cycles
Nah. Just no.
Shouting and complaining at the wrong points won't get you anywhere and just gets you discredited.
There have been people making that point for the EU aswell, and the math just flat out does not support that claim.
You can run an empty boilwash as a clean washer cycle every 4th or 5th cycle if you run each of the cycles in-between at 30C (86F) instead of 60C (140F) and still end up slightly lower energy.
And the general recommendation for a clean washer cycle is like every 50 cycles or so?
If you run most cycles in cold-ish water (86F) but can run a hot cycle with specific loads like once a week (140F), you even get clean clothes in return.
If people would understand that your once worn jeans don't need a 140F wash, but that your towels do, you would have the energy savings these regulations force you into AND don't need clean washer cycles.
Nah. Just no.
Shouting and complaining at the wrong points won't get you anywhere and just gets you discredited.
There have been people making that point for the EU aswell, and the math just flat out does not support that claim.
You can run an empty boilwash as a clean washer cycle every 4th or 5th cycle if you run each of the cycles in-between at 30C (86F) instead of 60C (140F) and still end up slightly lower energy.
And the general recommendation for a clean washer cycle is like every 50 cycles or so?
If you run most cycles in cold-ish water (86F) but can run a hot cycle with specific loads like once a week (140F), you even get clean clothes in return.
If people would understand that your once worn jeans don't need a 140F wash, but that your towels do, you would have the energy savings these regulations force you into AND don't need clean washer cycles.
I won't buy a washer that needs a clean cycle.The older machine I am using does fine.
gyrafoam
Well-known member
The Globalists/WEF/Elites will tell you what you can and cannot use and you will be happy. Period!
Meanwhile, I will continue to enjoy my old machines in blissfull non-compliance to the totalitarians!
Meanwhile, I will continue to enjoy my old machines in blissfull non-compliance to the totalitarians!
Oh, FFS.
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