Bleach Detergent?

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Tried Cascade Platinum pacs (still have a couple left), same effect, excess foaming.  Using those pacs is the only time in 16 years I've heard my DishDrawer add more water a few mins into the cycle to compensate for the water-turned-to-foam (it determines that by monitoring the load on the pump).
 
I had been using Cascade Complete pacs without issue but then the last batch I got was really foamy, much like the pictures and complaints here.

 

It's very annoying...P&G wants people to be brand loyal, but they seem to have forgotten the reason people are brand loyal is because they are expecting the product to work and smell the same way each time.

 

If you want a surprise you might as well buy whatever is on sale.
 
The ONLY pacs/tabs I can use in my KUDI23 are Miele and Finish powerball with the hard red ball in the middle.  EVERY other kind foams up too much with our water softener.  The finish tabs don't etch as bad as the powder years ago but still will do it over time.  I'd be hesitant in one of the new minimal water dishwashers because the detergent would be more concentrated with the smaller amount of water used. 
 
US Finish Powder

There is bleach in it, but it is the oxygen bleach version (Sodium Percarbonate and the TAED activator).

INGREDIENT
Sodium Sulfate
Sodium Carbonate
Sodium Citrate
Water/Eau
Sodium Silicate
Sodium Percarbonate
Alcohols Ethoxylate
Polyacrylic Acid Sodium Bisulfite Terminated
TAED
Fragrance/Parfum
Amylase Enzyme
Protease Enzyme

FINISH Quantum tabs 'Ultimate Clean & Shine':

This has Sodium Percarbonate bleach + the TAED activator + the Manganese bleach activator. So, superior bleaching with this one.

INGREDIENT
Sodium Carbonate
Sodium Citrate
C12-15 Alcohols Ethoxylated Propoxylated
Sodium Bicarbonate
Sodium Percarbonate
TAED
Polyvinyl Alcohol
Ethylene/propylene oxide copolymer
Polyacrylic Acid Sodium Bisulfite Terminated
Alcohol polyglycolether
Protease Enzyme
(1-Hydroxyethylidene)bisphosphonic acid, sodium salt
Amylase Enzyme
Fragrance/Parfum
Manganese Catalyst
d-Limonene
modified anthraquinone dye
Liquitint Red

And regarding chlorine bleach content, only the older-style blue bottle of Finish has it. But no enzymes, as chlorine bleach and enzymes do not work together. The smaller arty-farty Finish 'Max-in-1 Concentrated Gel' has enzymes - but NO type of bleach whatsoever!

 
Tried Palmolive Eco

Wasn't successful at removing the stains with Palmolive Eco. However, the detergent washed my dishes flawlessly, left no film or cloudiness, and with the cost I could wash my dishes for about $3/month!

These stains have been on my dishes for a while now, so I think I'm going to take the things that are already stained and soak them in a bleach solution and use the Palmolive Eco to see if it will keep things from staining from now on.

Thanks for the recommendations!
 
STPP - Sodium Tripolyphosphate

I throw some STPP in my dishwasher, as it is supposed to be the phosphate that was dropped from washing machine detergents, so I figured it would help in dishwashers as well. Do you think it works as well as the Cascade Fryer Boil Out? I'm thinking of trying the Fryer Boil Out, but unless it's better than the STPP why bother?

Please advise me. Thanks!

Deborah
 
Regarding Reply #22...

I decided to take some of my own advice, and bought a bag of the 'Finish Quantum Ultimate Clean & Shine' (those floppy, three-chambered things, that look like sweets). Used on the 'Auto Super Wash' programme, in the Bosch.

The result?

Whilst the plates, pots, Pyrex and cutlery generally look clean, mugs still have tea stains!

I can't believe it. This is supposed to be their top detergent, with the Manganese Catalyst to allow superior stain removal.

Perhaps they had some sort of production fault, where the bleach or activator or catalyst wasn't added to the mixture?

Nevertheless, I've had much better results with Lidl's W5 'standard' tablets - and I am quite irritated by that fact.
 
Rolls Rapide. That’s exactly what I’m using - The new style Quantum max. And like you it cleans food off completely, but leaves stains. The older style quantum max worked wonders with stains. I might pick some up from amazon, but it’s more expensive.
 
I had a look on Amazon UK's site. Other folk have also commented about Finish Quantum Ultimate's less-than-impressive tea stain removal.

It makes you wonder exactly what Reckitt Benckiser are doing with their laboratories...
 
It's been my impression over the years that chlorine bleach should not be used in Bosch dishwashers, due to the potential for corrosion of stainless steel from free chlorine. However my Bosch SHU43C user manual doesn't mention anything other than use a detergent designed for automatic dishwashers (no hand wash detergents).

 

Even so, I've never used chlorine in my Bosch and probably never will.

 

Bosch recommends using Finish Tabs, either Powerball or Quantum. The linked page says the Quantum product includes a bleach (oxygen). However, the Finish Powerball Max-in-One tabs I've been using contain sodium percarbonate, which is an oxygen bleach.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

"As an oxidizing agent, sodium percarbonate is an ingredient in a number of home and laundry cleaning products, including non-chlorine bleach products such as Oxyper, OxiClean, Tide laundry detergent,<sup id="cite_ref-Jones_1-2" class="reference">[1]</sup> and Vanish.<sup id="cite_ref-rscvanish_4-1" class="reference">[4]</sup>

 

"Many commercial products mix a percentage of sodium percarbonate with sodium carbonate. The average percentage of an "Oxy" product in the supermarket is 65% sodium percarbonate and 35% sodium carbonate. The "ultra boosters" seen on infomercials may contain as much as 80% sodium percarbonate. However, sodium percarbonate is less expensive in its pure form<sup class="noprint Inline-Template Template-Fact" style="white-space: nowrap;">[<span title="This claim needs references to reliable sources. (May 2017)">citation needed</span>]</sup> and can be adjusted to any percentage the user desires."

 

 

One note: the air gap for the drain line has a cap at the top of the sink. Periodically I check that cap; quite often it has some food debris that is flushed and gets caught in the cap. Simple enough to clear that out. If it gets too clogged the DW won't drain properly. And debris in there is not a sign of DW failure... the "large object filter" at the bottom of the dishwasher is designed to send medium to smaller particles down the drain. The problem is really the design of the air gap, I've modified it slightly to make it less prone to catch debris that the DW filer is designed to pass on through to the drain line, but it still happens. Oh well. It's no biggie to check it before each cycle. I might have to modify it again.

 

PS-Just checked on the chlorine/Bosch question again. Bosch does prohibit the use of chlorine bleach with its Axxis clothes washers. But it does not prohibit its use in its dishwashers.  In fact, at least one Bosch page recommends using a chlorine bleach containing DW detergent if tea stains persist. So there.

 

 

 
We`ve had stainless steel DWs for as long as I can think of. There have been rare exceptions but plastic tub DWs have always been considered shabby over here and the few that existed vanished sometime in the 1970s I think.
Our DW detergents were highly caustic, mostly water glass, phosphates and loads of chlorine until much milder enzyme based formulas appeared in the 1990s.

The stainless interior usually coped well with the old detergents, it was the dishes that didn`t. Lots of terribly etched glasses, onglaze prints that washed away in no time, and our enameled pots and pans all had a rough surface. That`s my memories and I don`t miss the chlorine based detergents at all.
 
"I don't miss the chlorine based detergents at all&#

I do miss them. They caused tea and coffee stains to be removed in one wash, and stainless pots, pans etc. looked much brighter. I also suspect that the optical sensor's plastic lenses were kept clearer too.

I will concede that perhaps the old chlorine detergents were a tad harsh on the dishwasher's plastic components. I have memories of the upper and lower baskets losing their plastic coatings, and the wheels on the baskets crumbled to powder (Zanussi/Electrolux). That also happened to the plastic edges of my Bosch's metal fine filter.
 
Honestly, having had a heavy tea drinker in my household, oxygen bleach worked just as well.
I mean the detergent was 30% oxygen bleach, but hey.

As you said, chlorine attacked EVERYTHING.
Including optical sensors etc.
Seals, pumps, no matter.

What most of the EU members underestimate is the lower wash temperatures.

45C vs. 55C vs. 65C are 3 completely different tears of bleaching action.

AND temperatures are no longer really held.
DWs had to reheat less in general once they heated to temp, but they basicly just don't anymore.
 
"different tiers of bleaching action"

Ah yes! I was reading the other day via Google Translator, Stiftung Warentest's dishwasher detergent report. Or more precisely, the members' comments section.

Folk were querying why Stif.Waren. tested at a temperature of 45°C. Obviously it was to suss out which detergents could handle such a low temperature. Apparently the Manganese Catalyst is supposed to work at low temps, whereas TAED and Sodium Percarbonate require a higher temperature.

"It clearly outperforms tetraacetylethylene-diamine (TAED) in the temperature range below 60 °C. Being a true catalyst, it is used in very low concentrations and saves valuable formulation space.

Features:
Removes tea, coffee and fruit stains at low temperatures.
Supports amylases in starch degradation processes.
Supresses silver tarnishing by oxidation of sulphur-containing food residues.
Very low usage levels: 0.01 – 004 %.
Compatible with enzymes and p-free builder systems."

Finish Quantum Ultimate is supposed to have Mn-TACN as the catalyst. This doesn't explain the poor bleaching performance experienced by several users. Perhaps they didn't put enough of it into the formulation?

 
Mn-TACN is also known as:

Bis(N,N',N''-trimethyl-1,4,7-triazacyclononane)-trioxo-dimanganese (IV) di(hexafluorophosphate)monohydrate.

Apparently it used in 'Fairy All-in-One' and most of the UK Fairy dishwasher pods - but not all.

'Fairy Platinum All-in-One (Original)' supposedly uses/used:

(Acetato)Pentaamminecobalt Dinitrate,

which appears to be a Cobalt catalyst.
 
Palmolive Eco is working

Just wanted to update that the Palmolive Eco has removed stains from my storage containers. The plastic straws are just too far gone. I even tried soaking them in 1/4 cup bleach and 1/2 gal of water. When that didn't work I tried straight bleach. That didn't even work. Hopefully now the Palmolive will be proactive and keep stains off before they start. I might give the Cascade + Oxi tabs a try in the future. But I'm pretty happy with Palmolive Eco right now.
 
Glad that worked well for you.  My mother's been using it for years.  I just bought some a couple of weeks ago to have on hand since I use chlorine based powdered detergent primarily.  I just finished off my Cascade fryer boil out...didn't really care for it.  Cascade gel with the power of Clorox has chlorine in it...the powdered version DOES NOT...it's oxygen bleach (which is misleading since it has the Clorox label on it).  I really like this
s-l200.jpg
that I bought on ebay.
 
Askolover,

Thanks. I will give the Cascade gel with power of Clorox a try as well. It says that my Walgreens carries it. I will say, without any enzymes the Palmolive Eco definitely rellies more on the power of the spray arms and the heat of the water to lossen debris. I would think this stuff would be perfect for those with KDS and Power Clean Whirlpools!
 

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