Bosch or FisherPaykel Dishwasher?

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support :

My two cents:

At this point in the game, I would try very hard to buy a dishwasher with a built-in water softener if you can, particularly if you have hard water piped to the dishwasher. Several brands, including Bosch and F&P sell them. I am not exactly sure how much more a model with a built-in softener costs, but in my area the water hardness varies throughout the year (from nearly 0 to 4 or 6 grains/gallon) depending on where they source the water from, and even at that low water hardness (people often say that is "soft" water) the automatic built-in water softener means I've never experienced any troubles with the "old" formulas that had phosphate, nor did I notice anything when they changed the formulas to the "hobbled" ones to piss off the population and I had no trouble either with the new(er) formulas (the ones where they finally decided that having detergent in the dishwasher detergent was OK). The "new" "16X" or whatever they print on the package formulas have been cleaning even better now than any other formulas, but the fact that the machine always used soft(ened) water never caused problems and has always helped.

In my experience, it's always helpful to get three copies of each dish/tableware you expect to run thru the machine, and bring them to a dealer, try to load them in the dishwasher. I used to have a Bosch dw that I really liked, and I expected to get another one when it came time to shop for a dw, but they had changed the racks such that I'd have to either buy new dishes or not be able to load as much, which was undesirable. I've learned the "bring 3 copies" because I had foolishly brought only one copy with me a few years before, and, while it looked like I could fit say, bowls, in the rack of the particular machine I bought, it was only when I got it home and installed that I learned that, yes, one bowl would fit, but if you wanted to put more than one close together, you wouldn't be able to, you had to leave an empty slot or two between them, which severely lowered the capacity of the machine for whatever the trouble dish(es) was/were.

As for the Fisher&Paykel dw, I find it an intriguing approach, and I know a lot of people who have or had one and like them just fine. I am particularly attracted to the idea of loading delicate/less soiled dishes in one drawer and heavy soiled/pots&pans in the next one. And I also like the idea of loading one machine while the other is working or has the clean dishes.

The problems I've heard some, by far not all people, had, seem to me to be linked to the lid. One would think that if you can put dishes and slide the drawer closed, you wouldn't have any problems with the lid closing the top of the tank and running the cycle. That is a very "engineer-like" mindset, I've found out, and people like that (including me) apparently aren't nearly as creative as people in general, because either the dishes find a way to shift themselves or people are really cramming things there and forcing the stuff inside as they "shut" the drawer, because then something is above the top of the drawer and jamming the lid, which can't close. Even that seems to be easy to fix, if one is OK with the floor getting wet, which should not be a problem in a kitchen, but many people have floors (cork or wood, for example) which deteriorate under a lot of spilled water.

I guess it also depends a lot on mindset -- one of my friends, who dragged me to the store with him and wife to help choose a new machine, brought with them a giant cutting board or cookie sheet, I can't remember now, 20 years later, and was adamant that any machine they bought had to fit that thing, instead of buying a machine which would be best for everything else and wash that one thing by hand. I kind of understand, because I also dislike hand washing stuff, but I am OK with running multiple cycles until everything is clean, and he was not, so, to fit that one giant thing, he picked a machine that could fit fewer dishes because of the rack layout and he ended up doing more dishes by hand. Oh, well. Anyway, if someone wants to fit very large cookie sheets and/or cutting boards, the drawers may or may not be able to fit them, particularly if you are not OK with laying them horizontally on top of the plates or some other arrangement.

In any case, in my experience, many people I know were happy with both Bosch and F&P, provided their dishes fit the racks.

Good luck!
 
>> My question about the F&P dish drawer is what was mentioned already: that it's twice as many parts -
>> separate fill valves, drain pumps, recirculation pumps, heaters, etc. So twice as much to go wrong.

That may be true, but it's up to you whether you consider that an argument AGAINST or an argument FOR the design.

For example, if I have a single big dishwasher, any size load is a cycle. 200 full loads and 200 half loads is 400 cycles on each part in the machine - the heater, the spray arm, etc. In the drawer pair, washing the same loads, they would only have averaged 300 full cycles per drawer. So there is a possibility, all else being equal, for the split units to outlast the single unit due to the lesser cycle accumulation.

There are also cases where your redundancy is beneficial. Spring a leak in a normal dishwasher, and you are handwashing in the sink. Spring a leak in a drawer, and you've only lost half of your capacity. That could be a HUGE help if you are, say, hosting Thanksgiving for a large family.

It's similar to how things work in aviation. Statistically speaking, aircraft with 4-engines aren't more reliable than those with 2, nor are the twins more reliable than singles, all because more engines = more moving parts = more chances for problems = more maintenance required. But there are good reasons why more engines are preferred for long oceanic flights.
 
I don't quite buy that a double drawer machine will be fewer cycles and less wear and tear on the components. That because with a standard dishwasher, at least in my case, I accumulate dishes etc. until it's a full load, and then I run it. This turns out to be about 2-3 times a week. With a dish drawer setup, I'd probably load the upper drawer the most (easier to access) and run that nightly. Even if I switched between drawers, it would still be an average of 3.5 loads per week per drawer.

Mind you, I have nothing really against F&P DD DW's. The more variety the merrier. I just don't accept some of the arguments in their favor.

Besides my SHU43 Bosch, my only other modern dishwasher experience is with a 1997 Frigidaire Gallery DW. It was a POS. Its main problem is too much plastic. The fine filter screen was a large and limp plastic piece of junk that warped and allowed debris into the recirculation pump, clogging the wash arms regularly. After that I got the Bosch and it is a far better design, albeit not without its own minor issues. Mainly the Bosch DW philosophy is longer wash times, higher temps, and less forceful water spray. It works quite well but does not lend itself to overloading the washer.

I also have two top loading KA dishwashers; both work, but I rarely fire them up. But they could easily wash large objects. I also have a few older KA under counter DW's but they are not in service (ran out of counter openings!). One of these days I'm gonna figure out how to carve a DW cubby out of the enclosed patio kitchen counter area.

The water here is reasonably soft - 3 to 5 grains when tested. But it's enough to cause problems in some circumstance. My understanding is it's rather difficult to find a DW sold new in America with a built-in water softener. Older DW detergent formulations had complex phosphates that did a great job of both softening hard water and fighting hard water mineral buildup inside the DW.
 
It's been an interesting thread.

I have had F&P Dish Drawers for about 12 years. They work wonderfully well. They replaced a Hobart built Insinkerator which was exactly the same as a KA. I have been very happy with the drawers. When I need something, it's always clean and ready for me to use. When I had a large dishwasher, seems like I was constantly having to wash something by hand in order to use it because I did not like to run the dishwasher until it was full.

I would have no qualms about getting another set of drawers when the time comes. I've had one repair -- a new board in one of the drawers. But while waiting for the part to come in, I had the other drawer to use so I was never without a dishwasher.

The drawers are quiet and clean well.

Jerry Gay
 
 
I have 1,017 cycles on my top drawer, 523 on the lower.  Timeframe 8/23/2003 to present.  I've been making an effort to continually alternate between them for routine use.  Ran both today after a lunch gathering.
 
It seems to me that the risk of them not making the F&P DishDrawers is small, not only because there is a slice of the market that really likes them, but also because they are the standard 24" wide, so if something someday, god forbid, that stops them from being available, the worst that happens is you need to remove the cabinet that was under one of them and install another standard machine, and, in case you have the stacked model, you'd already be all set anyway.

It's much worse for people who bought models that are 30" or 36" wide (I can't remember if F&P had any, but I think it was Dacor or Thermador that offered something in that space, no pun intended). Those people would have to remodel the cabinets at the very least or put an insert or something.

If I ever remodel my kitchen and the subject of having more than one dishwasher presents itself, I might get a stacked/doubleDishDrawer in addition to a standard machine, I'd think that would be the best of both worlds, being able to run 3 loads at once or just a small load etc.
 
I've had two Bosch dishwashers, in my two previous houses. I now moved to my third house, and it came with the Fisher Paykel dishdrawers.

They are ok. But they are a pain to load. You cannot achieve a Bobload in them. They should have a better racking system. If you have a full load of glasses, they fit fine on the glasses half of the machine, but on the plate side, the bottom of the rack is too wide open. They don't stand up straight. They fall sideways when you open the machine. Same thing with salad or soup bowls It is the worst dishwasher when it comes to the racking system. In the past I have owned a GE Potscrubber, a Maytag Reverse-Rack, a Kenmore Ultra-wash, and two Bosch dishwashers, and the Fisher Paykel is the worst dishwasher when it comes to packing it in. They should move the row of plates to the center of the machine, and glasses and cups on each side of the machine.

You can stick in tall wine glasses, which is a good thing, if you can make them stand up properly. Don't try to put in cookies sheets, or lasagna baking dishes. Unless you want to use 3/4 of the space for one item.

For washing results, it's good. But not the greatest. The Bosch was a better machine when it comes washing ability.
The good thing about the Fisher and Paykel, is the fast cycle. 53 minutes total. 30 Minute wash, followed by 2 rinses. It cleans pretty much everything perfectly. Especially if you pre-rinse. And you don't have a choice to pre-rinse your plates with a Fisher and Paykel.

And when I am loading or unloading the machine, the drawers always close back. I don't know if it's because it is not installed properly, but it is very annoying. When putting away a full load of clean dishes, you have to constantly reopen the drawers after taking out a few pieces.

Would I buy another set of drawers if they need to be replaced? NO. Can I live with them for now? Yes.
 
 
"... you don't have a choice to pre-rinse your plates with a Fisher and Paykel."  Is that comment referring to a Rinse/Hold cycle?  Mine (16yo) has it (although I never use it).  A quick look at a user manual for a current model on F&P's web site indicates they still have the cycle.

Loading involves a learning curve ... and also depends on the dishware comprising any given load. The rack tines are too tall, creates an issue for placing small bowls and such over them. Some (current) models have fold-down tines and provide for adjusting the spacing between them to make larger/smaller "gaps," and height-adjustable side shelves.  Mine has none of that.

Lightweight-items such as small plastic cups and bowls will overturn from the spray force if not anchored somehow or placed on the side shelves (using the Delicate cycle which has less spray force can help) ... can't say if newer units have reduced overall spray force.

Drawers not staying open ... yours apparently is installed tilted back a little, or there's some tension pulling on the drain hose.  My drawers stay open.

These pics date to 2007.  Could fit more plates in place of the bowl & tall pitcher.  EMWV (everyone's mileage will vary).

dadoes-2019032712112105705_1.jpg

dadoes-2019032712112105705_2.jpg
 
When I said I have no choice to pre-rinse, I meant to rinse the plates at the sink, so there is no food left on the plate. Just so the drain hoses from the dishwasher don't get clogged at the sink. My machines wouldn't drain after a month at the new house. The service guy that came showed me how to undo the drain hose under the sink, and how to clean them if it happens again. So since this day, I make sure that there is almost no food scraps left on my plates.
I can put the plate tines down, they fold completely. Which is good for big items, but if you put glasses or cups, they roll around. I will post pictures of my machine later on.
 
I am very curious about the F&P.

I have two questions at this time.

One is how did you install the machines? Can one get away with just the two screws against the countertop like most other dishwashers do, or does one need to fasten it by the sides of the cabinets? What are the advantages and disadvantages between the screws on the side of the cabinet (front of the dishwasher) vs. screws inside the cabinet (by removing the drawer and screwing from the inside)?

The second question is perhaps a bit weirder. I remember when the DishDrawers came out about 20 years ago, there were several TV reporters (so, not the best, most reliable sources to begin with) claiming that one of the advantages of the DishDrawers was that one could customize the machines -- for example, one could run one drawer as a "half-load" machine and always have clean dishes, or one could run each drawer with a different cycle and they implied that one could remove all the inserts from the rack and rearrange them, so, for example, one could reconfigure one drawer to have both glasses inserts and one drawer to have both plates inserts, and run one drawer in the China cycle while the other one runs a Normal or Heavy Duty cycle. So, was this possible, is this still possible, or have they changed the racks so one always needs to have a glass and a plates insert in the same drawer? I'm asking because if it still works (or has ever worked) out like they described 20 years ago, maybe Steve could just put the two glass inserts in one drawer and the two plates inserts in another and make it into what most dishwashers have for a racking system.

Thanks in advance,
      -- Paulo.
 
 
The installation guide for my model doesn't explicitly warn so but the steps indicate that all anchor tabs/screws should be secured -- two screws at the top/front into the countertop, and four through the sides at the lower drawer.  It says the single-drawer models don't have the two top tabs (however, installation of newer single-drawer units is much different per the last time I perused the procedures).

My countertop is granite and the top tabs/screws don't align properly, so I used only the side tabs/screws (two toward the back and two toward the front).

The two drawers in a double-drawer unit are completely separate machines regards to running cycles.  Current models may not allow both drawers to perform some functions (such as draining) simultaneously so the control boards in the system prevent that from happening by pausing one of the cycles briefly if the timing happens to hit that way.

Per the pics:

1)  All rack inserts removed makes for a wide-open space with no tines.

2)  Two MegaRack inserts (for glassware and such) fit in one rack/drawer.

3)  Two plate rack inserts doesn't work (on my model, can't say about newer units) because the space where a plate rack would go on the left side is a smidgen narrower than the space for it on the right side (see Pic 1 for reference) and the insert won't snap/anchor into position.

I (generally) scrape but I don't prerinse anything.

4)  Rice or pasta .. whatever it was.

5)  Baked chicken.

6)  Microwave oatmeal with jam added, boilover.

dadoes-2019032715362105604_1.jpg

dadoes-2019032715362105604_2.jpg

dadoes-2019032715362105604_3.jpg

dadoes-2019032715362105604_4.jpg

dadoes-2019032715362105604_5.jpg

dadoes-2019032715362105604_6.jpg
 
Steve, that's kinda weird that the rack is fixed, you seem to have a pretty high-end model even if it's a couple of years old or so.

Take a look at the user guide, it might tell you how to remove the rack(s).

In case you don't have the user guide, I've been taking a look at their website (morbid curiosity), and the link to the user guide is below (pages 17-19, I think, talk about the racks).

Good luck!

 
 
The model and serial number should be on a tag at the left side of the facia between the drawers, visible below the upper drawer when it's open.  The serial number is coded for the month and year of production if you want to know that.

The original-style spray arm had fewer/larger holes.  It was redesigned with more/smaller holes.  The new-style arm retrofits directly to the old-style.

My unit is a DD603 bought in August 2003.  It had the old-style arms, non-adjustable tines (other than removing the inserts entirely), and the side shelves don't adjust for height.  Yours has the adjustable racking so should be a newer series than 603, but maybe being in Canada the changes didn't introduce all at the same time and on a different schedule than the U.S.

dadoes-2019032809594805961_1.jpg

dadoes-2019032809594805961_2.jpg
 
 
Steve's racking appears to be a different design than mine. 

I notice that this tine (Pic 1) is hooked *under* the base basket rail at the left side.  It appears to be part of the structure of the base basket.

My Mega Rack has an anchor "spring" that sits *in front* of that rail (Pic 2). 

Also two other spring/tines (Pic 3 & 4) that anchor the Mega Rack to the base rack rails at the back and front.  These are what allow my Mega Racks to be removed, they're not permanently attached to the base rack.

I *can* install it with the side hook under the side rail but that's not how my user guide shows it to be done.  It says to position the "outer legs (front and back) of the Mega Rack, then clip it down to the side of the base.

dadoes-2019032810354305122_1.jpg

dadoes-2019032810354305122_2.jpg

dadoes-2019032810354305122_3.jpg

dadoes-2019032810354305122_4.jpg
 

Latest posts

Back
Top