jakeseacrest
Well-known member
I found a few boxes of Cascade with 6.4% phosphates at a local Benny's. I was going to buy them, but when I picked up a box you could hear the detergent was kinda caked up inside. Any idea if they are still good?
Cascade with Phosphates
- Thread starter jakeseacrest
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I bought up a bunch of boxes back when it was disappearing from shelves. I just this past week opened up a new one and it was almost a solid block. I bang it and shake it around prior to filling cups and so far so good.
Jeff, rather than scrounge for old stock, order yourself some Bubble Bandit. The only reason I haven't already done so is because I still have several boxes of Cascade to go through.
Jeff, rather than scrounge for old stock, order yourself some Bubble Bandit. The only reason I haven't already done so is because I still have several boxes of Cascade to go through.
Last question I promise: do any of the current P&G institutional products still have phosphates, e.g. the attached link claims yes but another site said explicitly no.
Sorry to hijack, I wish there was an edit function.
Sorry to hijack, I wish there was an edit function.
I bought a case of the institutional Cascade several months ago. Yes, it has phosphates ... leastwise the package shipped to me did/does. And chlorine bleach (no enzymes). Works great on stained plastics.
Caked Powder Detergent
Usually indicates moisture somehow entered the package and depending upon whom you believe the product is no longer at full strength. Being as that may have used powdered laundry detergents that had caked/harded without any performace issues to my eyes.
I'd nab the stuff but start using it now instead of putting it into a stash for later. Place each box that isn't being used inside a heavy plastic bag and seal tightly. You might also want to examine each box carefully for signs of water/moisture damage.
One small niggle would be that IIRC STPP degrades in the presence of moisture to a lower form of phosphates. Don't remember the exact chemical reaction or if the changed form is any different performance wise than STPP itself.
Usually indicates moisture somehow entered the package and depending upon whom you believe the product is no longer at full strength. Being as that may have used powdered laundry detergents that had caked/harded without any performace issues to my eyes.
I'd nab the stuff but start using it now instead of putting it into a stash for later. Place each box that isn't being used inside a heavy plastic bag and seal tightly. You might also want to examine each box carefully for signs of water/moisture damage.
One small niggle would be that IIRC STPP degrades in the presence of moisture to a lower form of phosphates. Don't remember the exact chemical reaction or if the changed form is any different performance wise than STPP itself.
I don't know about MSDS sources for Bubble Bandit. Probably not much different from other phosphated formulas.
I've been storing my Cascade in a cabinet down in the basement. It's not damp down there at all, and average humidity around here isn't very high compared to other parts of the country. It's probably too late now to wrap each box in plastic, but I haven't bothered to check if the balance of what I have down there is also caked up so if it turns out it's not, I'll wrap it up.
I've been storing my Cascade in a cabinet down in the basement. It's not damp down there at all, and average humidity around here isn't very high compared to other parts of the country. It's probably too late now to wrap each box in plastic, but I haven't bothered to check if the balance of what I have down there is also caked up so if it turns out it's not, I'll wrap it up.
mark_wpduet
Well-known member
I bought a case
of Institutional Cascade and it has phosphates and chlorine bleach in it, and yes it does do well on stains and is overall good. But I do NOT think it's as good as Finish Quantum or Powerball.
I've never heard of Bubble Bandit.
I also wonder back when Cascade Complete with phosphates was being sold - how did it differ from the institutional with phosphates available now? I remember the Cascade Complete being better than the institutional!
of Institutional Cascade and it has phosphates and chlorine bleach in it, and yes it does do well on stains and is overall good. But I do NOT think it's as good as Finish Quantum or Powerball.
I've never heard of Bubble Bandit.
I also wonder back when Cascade Complete with phosphates was being sold - how did it differ from the institutional with phosphates available now? I remember the Cascade Complete being better than the institutional!
Domestic versus Insitutional Dishwashing
For the latter dishes are normally scraped well, rinsed and or even soaked before going into the DW. The final often quick trip through the machine serves more to remove any residue that wasn't removed by the previous pretreatment and sanitising.
OTHO domestic dishwashers handle things that may or may not be well rid of foods and shouldn't normally be pre-washed/rinsed. Multiple cycles sometimes long do all the work.
Before the advent of enzymes all dishwashing detergents contained chlorine bleach (sanitises and breaks down protein), and caustic chemicals. However the latter often didn't remove heavy soils and or break down protein (eggs, milk, etc..) very well, especially with shorter cycles and less changes of water. Enzyme detergents however give excellent results even at lower wash temperatures so dishes can be done at 120F instead of 140F or above. Drawbacks include having to have slightly longer cycle times that allow time for the stuff to do it's work. Again for domestic dishwashers this rarely is a problem, but you aren't going to find commercial users putting up with that sort of thing.
Never liked chlorine based DW detergents. Always made one's kitchen smell like the cafeteria at school where LCB was for all sorts of cleaning and germ killing purposes. However since most housewives ran their dishwashers overnight after the dinner dishes were loaded and the family vacated the kitchen, the wafting scent of bleach may not have bothered some households.
IIRC the other thing about enzyme dishwasher detergents is they allow machines no longer having to resort to "blasting" dirt off dishes with powerful (and often water hungry) sprays. Enzymes mixed with water are capable of breaking down soils with less force so even a reduced spray can carry the muck away.
For the latter dishes are normally scraped well, rinsed and or even soaked before going into the DW. The final often quick trip through the machine serves more to remove any residue that wasn't removed by the previous pretreatment and sanitising.
OTHO domestic dishwashers handle things that may or may not be well rid of foods and shouldn't normally be pre-washed/rinsed. Multiple cycles sometimes long do all the work.
Before the advent of enzymes all dishwashing detergents contained chlorine bleach (sanitises and breaks down protein), and caustic chemicals. However the latter often didn't remove heavy soils and or break down protein (eggs, milk, etc..) very well, especially with shorter cycles and less changes of water. Enzyme detergents however give excellent results even at lower wash temperatures so dishes can be done at 120F instead of 140F or above. Drawbacks include having to have slightly longer cycle times that allow time for the stuff to do it's work. Again for domestic dishwashers this rarely is a problem, but you aren't going to find commercial users putting up with that sort of thing.
Never liked chlorine based DW detergents. Always made one's kitchen smell like the cafeteria at school where LCB was for all sorts of cleaning and germ killing purposes. However since most housewives ran their dishwashers overnight after the dinner dishes were loaded and the family vacated the kitchen, the wafting scent of bleach may not have bothered some households.
IIRC the other thing about enzyme dishwasher detergents is they allow machines no longer having to resort to "blasting" dirt off dishes with powerful (and often water hungry) sprays. Enzymes mixed with water are capable of breaking down soils with less force so even a reduced spray can carry the muck away.
I had better results with Inst. Cascade over Finish Quantum, but nothing in the day and night category. Bubble Bandit blows them all away though.
Bubble Bandit will most likely shine most with modern dishwashers that take forever and a day, allowing plenty of time for enzymes to work their magic. I still get exceptional results with a 3 minute pre-wash and 6 minute main wash in the KDS-18.
Bubble Bandit will most likely shine most with modern dishwashers that take forever and a day, allowing plenty of time for enzymes to work their magic. I still get exceptional results with a 3 minute pre-wash and 6 minute main wash in the KDS-18.
I've noticed more spotting with the Institutional Cascade w/phosphates than with Cascade Complete (enzyme) from my phosphated stash. I have only a couple of boxes of the Complete, stored in the basement sealed in plastic bags. It doesn't take long for it to get caky or clump - moisture makes it's way into everything eventually.
The sheeting action (for spotting) and the cleaning of tougher soils isn't as impressive as the Complete or other enzyme-based formulas but it does a great job removing coffee stains, tomato stains from plastics, etc. John L. told me years ago to use an enzyme based det. in the pre-wash and chlorine based in the main wash when the machine and dishes are hotter. I sometimes use it this way in my KDS-18 with the enzyme in the first pre-wash so there are three water changes (even short fills) before the main wash so the enzymes have time to work, then are flushed away by the main wash. Works beautifully.
The sheeting action (for spotting) and the cleaning of tougher soils isn't as impressive as the Complete or other enzyme-based formulas but it does a great job removing coffee stains, tomato stains from plastics, etc. John L. told me years ago to use an enzyme based det. in the pre-wash and chlorine based in the main wash when the machine and dishes are hotter. I sometimes use it this way in my KDS-18 with the enzyme in the first pre-wash so there are three water changes (even short fills) before the main wash so the enzymes have time to work, then are flushed away by the main wash. Works beautifully.
I've been doing the reverse with our Kenmore Ultra Wash, using new Cascade Institutional powder with phosphates and bleach in the pre-wash cup, and then a circa 2008-vintage Cascade Action Pac with phosphates and enzymes in the main wash cup.
If I remember correctly, we still get two final rinses if selecting the Pots and Pans cycle, which is the cycle I normally use.
The only concern I have is whether or not any lingering bleach from the pre-wash kills the enzymes from the main wash. Results have been consistently good, though, with no spotting and no need to use rinse aid.
If I remember correctly, we still get two final rinses if selecting the Pots and Pans cycle, which is the cycle I normally use.
The only concern I have is whether or not any lingering bleach from the pre-wash kills the enzymes from the main wash. Results have been consistently good, though, with no spotting and no need to use rinse aid.
I wish I had known about the changing detergent formulas at the time so I could have stockpiled detergents like I have been hoarding 100 watt incandescent light bulbs over the past 4 years. When did the phosphates disappear? I want to say that around 2008 or 2009 I started noticing my dishes did not seem as clean and for the first time, began seeing an occasional food particle remaining on a dish. I first thought something was wrong with the DW, but soon learned what had changed in detergents. Today, the only thing I've found that comes close to the old stuff are the Finish caplets.
retropia- What vintage is your Ultrawash? P&P cycle will give you 2 final rinses. Depending on the it's age, you may also get 2 rinses with other cycles. If it's a tall tub(early 2000s or later) then P&P is likely the only double rinse. That is pretty much the only cycle I use in mine.
If you have a GFS near you, they sell the institutional Cascade powder with phosphates. At least, they do in Ohio; I'm not sure about other states.
Our Kenmore is the last of the standard tub models, I think a 2010 model. Our 1998 model, that the new one replaced, did a dual rinse on the standard cycle, which is what I normally used. After the new one went in, I determined that the pots and pans cycle was comparable to the standard cycle on the old dishwasher.
Our Kenmore is the last of the standard tub models, I think a 2010 model. Our 1998 model, that the new one replaced, did a dual rinse on the standard cycle, which is what I normally used. After the new one went in, I determined that the pots and pans cycle was comparable to the standard cycle on the old dishwasher.
Doug, on Normal cycle with wwtr heat option, you'll get the 2 post wash rinses.
[this post was last edited: 12/7/2012-11:46]
[this post was last edited: 12/7/2012-11:46]
